The Rage Is Not About Healthcare - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 03-28-2010, 10:10 PM
mlp
Banned
 
mlp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,995
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/opinion/28rich.html



No less curious is how disproportionate this red-hot anger is to its proximate cause. The historic Obama-Pelosi health care victory is a big deal, all right, so much so it doesn’t need Joe Biden’s adjective to hype it. But the bill does not erect a huge New Deal-Great Society-style government program. In lieu of a public option, it delivers 32 million newly insured Americans to private insurers. As no less a conservative authority than The Wall Street Journal editorial page observed last week, the bill’s prototype is the health care legislation Mitt Romney signed into law in Massachusetts. It contains what used to be considered Republican ideas.



When Social Security was passed by Congress in 1935 and Medicare in 1965, there was indeed heated opposition....But there was nothing like this. To find a prototype for the overheated reaction to the health care bill, you have to look a year before Medicare, to the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Both laws passed by similar majorities in Congress; the Civil Rights Act received even more votes in the Senate (73) than Medicare (70). But it was only the civil rights bill that made some Americans run off the rails. That’s because it was the one that signaled an inexorable and immutable change in the very identity of America, not just its governance.



The apocalyptic predictions then, like those about health care now, were all framed in constitutional pieties, of course....That a tsunami of anger is gathering today is illogical, given that what the right calls “Obamacare” is less provocative than either the Civil Rights Act of 1964 or Medicare, an epic entitlement that actually did precipitate a government takeover of a sizable chunk of American health care. But the explanation is plain: the health care bill is not the main source of this anger and never has been. It’s merely a handy excuse. The real source of the over-the-top rage of 2010 is the same kind of national existential reordering that roiled America in 1964....In fact, the current surge of anger — and the accompanying rise in right-wing extremism — predates the entire health care debate. The first signs were the shrieks of “traitor” and “off with his head” at Palin rallies as Obama’s election became more likely in October 2008....If Obama’s first legislative priority had been immigration or financial reform or climate change, we would have seen the same trajectory. The conjunction of a black president and a female speaker of the House — topped off by a wise Latina on the Supreme Court and a powerful gay Congressional committee chairman — would sow fears of disenfranchisement among a dwindling and threatened minority in the country no matter what policies were in play. It’s not happenstance that Frank, Lewis and Cleaver — none of them major Democratic players in the health care push — received a major share of last weekend’s abuse. When you hear demonstrators chant the slogan “Take our country back!,” these are the people they want to take the country back from.
mlp is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 03-28-2010, 10:16 PM
mlp
Banned
 
mlp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,995
The bullying, threats, and acts of violence following the passage of health care reform have been shocking, but they’re only the most recent manifestations of an increasing sense of desperation. It’s an extension of a now-familiar theme: some version of “take our country back.” The problem is that the country romanticized by the far right hasn’t existed for some time, and its ability to deny that fact grows more dim every day. President Obama and what he represents has jolted extremists into the present and forced them to confront the future. And it scares them.



Even the optics must be irritating. A woman (Nancy Pelosi) pushed the health care bill through the House. The bill’s most visible and vocal proponents included a gay man (Barney Frank) and a Jew (Anthony Weiner). And the black man in the White House signed the bill into law. It’s enough to make a good old boy go crazy. Politically, this frustration is epitomized by the Tea Party movement. It may have some legitimate concerns (taxation, the role of government, etc.), but its message is lost in the madness. And now the anemic Republican establishment, covetous of the Tea Party’s passion, is moving to absorb it, not admonish it. Instead of jettisoning the radical language, rabid bigotry and rising violence, the Republicans justify it. (They don’t want to refute it as much as funnel it.)



You may want “your country back,” but you can’t have it. That sound you hear is the relentless, irrepressible march of change. Welcome to America: The Remix.




http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/27/op...y+is+it&st=nyt
mlp is offline  
#3 Old 03-28-2010, 10:33 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Jessyka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 282
Hear hear!
Jessyka is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#4 Old 03-29-2010, 09:23 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Beancounter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,339
Well, I think a part of it is the bad economy. When people are desperate, they want to find a scape goat.



Then again, some of them are just plain crazy.

Happiness is not the result of a mathematical equation comparing the good times and bad times someone has had. It is a state of mind.
-nomad888
Beancounter is offline  
#5 Old 03-29-2010, 10:40 AM
Red
Veggie Regular
 
Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,765
They're only angry because it was a black man and a woman that bailed out Wall Street.
Red is offline  
#6 Old 03-29-2010, 10:42 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Treehugger267's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 3,795
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red View Post

They're only angry because it was a black man and a woman that bailed out Wall Street.



I believe this is a huge part of it.
Treehugger267 is offline  
#7 Old 03-29-2010, 11:44 AM
Red
Veggie Regular
 
Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,765
Given that right-thinking progressives have embraced the bailouts and corporate welfare, the contrast is obvious.
Red is offline  
#8 Old 03-29-2010, 11:44 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
I found the Tea Party movement to be much more legitimate before it was hijacked by the GOP for partisan purposes. However, despite the fact that there are very vocal racist and reactionary elements within it, I think that it has an anti-government populism that the Democrats need to recognize. The independent/libertarian moderates who have distanced themselves from the Tea Party since its corruption by the Republican propaganda wagon may not be "tea baggers" anymore or associate with them, but that doesn't mean they aren't still very, very pissed off.



My biggest problem with them is their focus on Obama (and on the tax issue). I think it's misdirected anger and from a civil liberties perspective, it's completely missing the point.



The craziest thing to me is that most of them are anti-tax, but they're not even the ones the taxes would be directed at. Most of the conservatives on the street are like dogs protecting their masters for scraps from the table. It's nuts. They ***** about "distributing the wealth" when a lot of them don't even have any for the government to take.
Kellye is offline  
#9 Old 03-29-2010, 11:55 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellye View Post

I found the Tea Party movement to be much more legitimate before it was hijacked by the GOP for partisan purposes.

A similar point was recently made in another thread -- that the teabaggers were conquered from above by Palin and other asshats.



It's always these big bad individuals who "hijack" or "steal" the political movement from the innocent masses who have no ability to resist someone as powerful, smart and charismatic as the pretentiously folksy hockey mom or the conspiracy theorist / crybaby with the crew cut. To me, this way of thinking is similar to how some of the teabaggers or their sympathizers think the country has been hijacked by those evil politicians, as if they weren't voted into office.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#10 Old 03-29-2010, 12:26 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

A similar point was recently made in another thread -- that the teabaggers were conquered from above by Palin and other asshats.



It's always these big bad individuals who "hijack" or "steal" the political movement from the innocent masses who have no ability to resist someone as powerful, smart and charismatic as the pretentiously folksy hockey mom or the conspiracy theorist / crybaby with the crew cut. To me, this way of thinking is similar to how some of the teabaggers or their sympathizers think the country has been hijacked by those evil politicians, as if they weren't voted into office.



Don't be surprised if they get voted right back out again.
Kellye is offline  
#11 Old 03-29-2010, 12:44 PM
Red
Veggie Regular
 
Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,765
Only a racist/misogynist/homophobe would vote against the party in power.
Red is offline  
#12 Old 03-29-2010, 12:45 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red View Post

Only a racist/misogynist/homophobe would vote against the party in power.



Right?
Kellye is offline  
#13 Old 03-29-2010, 12:47 PM
Red
Veggie Regular
 
Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,765
I know I don't want to be labeled a racist/misogynist/homophobe, so I'm going to see if my friend has any leftover Obama bumperstickers I can stick on my truck.
Red is offline  
#14 Old 03-29-2010, 01:18 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellye View Post

Don't be surprised if they get voted right back out again.

Well in the same way that people change their curtains once in a while. The new curtains look a bit different, but all they really do is just hang there like the previous curtains.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#15 Old 03-29-2010, 01:23 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Well in the same way that people change their curtains once in a while. The new curtains look a bit different, but all they really do is just hang there like the previous curtains.



Red vs. Blue....no matter what you pick, the outcome is likely to suck.
Kellye is offline  
#16 Old 03-29-2010, 01:23 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Agreed.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#17 Old 03-30-2010, 04:06 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 80
It's about a money and power grab by the government, else it would have only been 10 pages long.





The herd will now funnel through the slaughter gate. Don't forget to leave that leather wallet and all it's content at the gate.



The majority of the populace wanted a better bill, but that wasn't the intent of Obamacare. Wake up people.
Ivegan is offline  
#18 Old 03-30-2010, 06:03 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Bonn1997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivegan View Post

It's about a money and power grab by the government, else it would have only been 10 pages long.





The herd will now funnel through the slaughter gate. Don't forget to leave that leather wallet and all it's content at the gate.



The majority of the populace wanted a better bill, but that wasn't the intent of Obamacare. Wake up people.



You're acting like a 2000 page bill is something new that they did only in this rare instance. Perhaps most previous legislation--by the most conservative Republicans and the most liberal Democrats--should merely also be called efforts to bring in money and grab power. If you'll grant that, then I'll grant that this one bill is no exception to the norm.
Bonn1997 is offline  
#19 Old 03-30-2010, 06:25 PM
Veggie Regular
 
draconian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,082
I might actually be for this bill, but I have not read the details of the HEALTH portions of it because there's so many PORK attachments to it. I'm sick of state's getting special favors to 'buy' the votes of their representatives.

--
The Twilight Is My Robe
draconian is offline  
#20 Old 03-30-2010, 09:19 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Savannah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,908
If there had been a few Republican members of Congress with the courage and integrity to buck their party's strategy of trying to prevent passage of any bill at all costs there would have been a better bill passed. What was cobbled together was made necessary because in order to gain passage the Democrats had to appease several of their own members that were hostile to things like a strong public option. They were forced to buy the votes of several of their own people because across the aisle they were doing a death dance with the welfare of the American people.
Savannah is offline  
#21 Old 03-30-2010, 09:22 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 80
Quote:
Originally Posted by Savannah View Post

If there had been a few Republican members of Congress with the courage and integrity to buck their party's strategy of trying to prevent passage of any bill at all costs there would have been a better bill passed. What was cobbled together was made necessary because in order to gain passage the Democrats had to appease several of their own members that were hostile to things like a strong public option. They were forced to buy the votes of several of their own people because across the aisle they were doing a death dance with the welfare of the American people.

And you see no absurdity in what you just said?
Ivegan is offline  
#22 Old 03-30-2010, 09:23 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Savannah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,908
Nope I don't. I just see the absurdity that you've posted thus far. It has been good for a laugh. Got anything of substance to say or are you going to be posting things about people lining up for the slaughter continually. That would get old pretty fast.
Savannah is offline  
#23 Old 03-30-2010, 09:33 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 80
Smoke and mirrors is a way of life for many. If all the Dems had voted yes and all the Reps had voted no (this part is true)

then you would have an argument. But all we got was a bunch of pork.
Ivegan is offline  
#24 Old 03-30-2010, 10:13 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Savannah's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 4,908
No, 'all we got is a bunch of pork' is not true. We got some insurance reform. If there had been some Republicans with integrity then the pork wouldn't have been necessary to get the Ben Nelsons and Mary Landrieu's to vote for the bill. We could have done without those nitwits and passed a bill without that garbage. But when you have 40 NO votes no matter what on the other side then you have to deal with the dimwits in your own ranks. That is what happened.
Savannah is offline  
#25 Old 03-30-2010, 10:21 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 80
And what was the consensus of the American people, It wasn't no health bill, it was not this health bill. People want it but not the shafting we were given. But of course I heard it before: it's at least a start. That is such a cop out, to what could have been a much better bill. Settling for something less is just sad.
Ivegan is offline  
#26 Old 03-31-2010, 01:37 AM
Red
Veggie Regular
 
Red's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 4,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bonn1997 View Post

You're acting like a 2000 page bill is something new that they did only in this rare instance.



Like the Patriot Act - a hurried through bill that received a lot of criticism simply because it was so huge that nobody quite knew what was in it? 'cause nobody had read the whole thing? Judging from the silence, I guess that's no longer a flaw in certain quarters.
Red is offline  
#27 Old 03-31-2010, 03:12 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Bonn1997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 906
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red View Post

Like the Patriot Act - a hurried through bill that received a lot of criticism simply because it was so huge that nobody quite knew what was in it? 'cause nobody had read the whole thing? Judging from the silence, I guess that's no longer a flaw in certain quarters.

I don't follow what you're saying. How long was the Patriot Act bill? What is your point about criticism of it?
Bonn1997 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off