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otomik 03-28-2010 02:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cato Institute View Post

10 Rules for Dealing with Police, the new film from Flex Your Rights, premiered at Cato earlier this week. If you’re interested in knowing more about how to defend your rights during encounters with law enforcement, this is a must-see. You can watch the whole thing below, which includes discussion and commentary after the film.

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/...g-with-police/

draconian 03-28-2010 04:52 PM

Those are 10 very good rules for every US citizen to know. I'm disappointed that the judge turned it into a white vs. black issue when it really is a cop vs. civilian issue.

julz 03-28-2010 05:16 PM

I learned some things from it. Like, I did not know that police may not have to read you your rights.



I would never have thought of saying no to a search. I'm not sure if say no even now, but the film brought up some very good reasons why you should not consent.



When I was a young, punk-mouthed kid, I mouthed off to a cop a time or two. It's never a good thing. As an adult, I have never had a problem.

New England Vegan 03-28-2010 05:42 PM

This is a related video that expands on some of the topics mentioned in the video in the OP. The video is called "Never Talk to the Police". It has a criminal defense attorney give a lecture and then a police officer in the later portion responding (confirming) what the defense attorney said and also reveals common techniques police use to get you to talk. It's a great video.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc

julz 03-28-2010 08:20 PM

So, I am curious...are you all completely against talking to the police under any circumstances?

unovegan 03-28-2010 08:25 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by julz View Post

So, I am curious...are you all completely against talking to the police under any circumstances?



That would be extremely ridiculous and plain dumb under certain circumstances. Idealism can easily get stomped on by realism here.

julz 03-28-2010 08:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by unovegan View Post

That would be extremely ridiculous and plain dumb under certain circumstances. Idealism can easily get stomped on by realism here.



If I am asked some simple questions by the police, I don't think that I would resist answering them unless it looked as if I was suspected of something.



That said, I was having a conversation with someone while having dinner at a friend's house. That person was a police officer who was exasperated by how many criminals got away with commiting crimes all because they refused to talk when questioned by the police and how their attorneys had much better results at getting them off. He said, to no one in particular, that if you are ever arrested, the best thing to do is to shut your mouth.



*shrugs*

Savannah 03-28-2010 08:56 PM

It is good advice. When arrested, refuse to talk and demand counsel and the ability to contact one's family. Arrest is a hostile act--it is not done to help you.

jeneticallymodified 03-28-2010 09:44 PM

yeah, you have to watch your own arse- cos nobody else is really gonna do it for you.



i don't consent to searches or let police into my house- because honestly, why should i? because they want me to? its too easy to put myself into a submissive role because its expected of me. i know i haven't commited any crime, but seeing as the person who owned this house before us was a very shady wicked stoner and i have no clue what else (and judging by the mail that still comes here for him, i don't wanna either), as is my neighbour, and as assorted people have potential access to our vehicle, i don't wanna put myself into a situation where i could get royally screwed- by having drugs or other things show up that i didn't know were there, or getting caught out somehow.



sure, i'm polite and i'm civil, but i'm not a pushover and i won't be manipulated.







... it'd be great if there were versions of this for other countries- not enough people know their rights or how to assert them.

JLRodgers 03-29-2010 12:11 AM

Once my friend, when his father owned the car (back in high school), was pulled over, and the car was full of garbage. His father had a gun box that he put the car registration information in... so when the officer asked if he could search the car, he said "ok" and asked if we could step out.



Let's just say there was a few week old (or more) brownie container in the floorboard -- the officer started to sniff it. Shortly after gagging (who knows what was in or on it!) he let us go. But my friend basically figured reaching for a gun/ammunition box with an officer nearby probably was not a good idea, so to make it easier, he just let them search the car.

das_nut 03-29-2010 12:40 AM

Are we all praising something done by the Cato institute?



Guys, you're slipping.



At least one of you needed to have linked this to the Shrub and the Iraq war.

julz 03-29-2010 06:09 AM

My first instinct would be to cooperate because I know I do not commit crimes. Once I adjusted my attitude about police in general, all of my interactions with the police have been in very good terms.



But both videos seemed to imply that you should never cooperate with police unless you are in a situation in which you are legally required. Even if you are being asked simple questions.

GhostUser 03-29-2010 09:23 AM

man, that vid took itself way too seriously for my taste i reckon silverman thought he was making a feature

Alicia Avocado 03-29-2010 09:26 AM

Try dealing with the RCMP....I think they use training tactics similar to those used by Nazi Germany. I've seen wayyyyy too much abuse of power/corruption within the organization.



It's really good to have a knowledge of proper procedures/legal rights when dealing with the police, as often they rely upon your not-knowing.

suchgreatheight 03-29-2010 09:57 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by julz View Post

My first instinct would be to cooperate because I know I do not commit crimes.

No, you really don't know that - you really wouldn't know that even if you were an experienced defense attorney or trial judge - there are countless numbers of crimes. Moreover, there might be evidence that you committed a crime (whether or not you did in fact) without you knowing it. The police are not your friends - their job is to hurt you not help you.



Quote:

But both videos seemed to imply that you should never cooperate with police unless you are in a situation in which you are legally required. Even if you are being asked simple questions.



Thats because even simple questions can implicate you or others in crimes in ways that could not possibly be apparent when they're asked.

suchgreatheight 03-29-2010 10:02 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by julz View Post

So, I am curious...are you all completely against talking to the police under any circumstances?



No - I would report to the police violent crime in progress or serious violent crime that had been committed. The issue isn't "talking to the police" in the abstract, but answering police questions asked during police initiated encounters, and consenting to searches.

amhappy1 03-29-2010 10:11 AM

I had my 18 year old son watch this. This is something everyone should know.

JLRodgers 03-29-2010 10:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by julz View Post

But both videos seemed to imply that you should never cooperate with police unless you are in a situation in which you are legally required. Even if you are being asked simple questions.



There are no simple questions. If you say anything that later turns out to be a lie or contradiction, they may arrest you for lieing or being suspicious (or potentially guilty). Say you were not in a place that was robbed--have a witness say you were there--you say you weren't, they may have grounds to charge you not only with the crime you did not commit, but also "lieing" to them, and a few other things. Then if they search your car and smell alcohol (from say a mouthwash you spilled), was it really mouthwash? Nope! You were drinking too! So a DUI + robbery + maybe an obstruction or lieing charge. Then you are aggrivated and make some comment that they don't like. Resisting arrest! Now you might have your butt tasered. So now you're lying on the ground peeing yourself shaking, while under arrest for multiple crimes.....And all you did was honestly answer "I did not go to the (name of robbed store)".





Or just a simple idea:

Officer: Do you know why I pulled you over?

You: I was going a bit fast.

Officer: Actually I pulled you over for a broken tail light.



Now you've got a speeding ticket + ticket for something else. Take your seatbelt off to get your wallet/registration? Might get a warning or ticket for failure to wear a seatbelt too. And you might have just walked your way into a car search (after all, you just admitted to one illegal act, how many more are there?).





So yeah... They ask questions, feel free to shut up, see if they're going to detain you, and act within your rights.

otomik 03-29-2010 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodedclawjen View Post

... it'd be great if there were versions of this for other countries- not enough people know their rights or how to assert them.

some places, i'm thinking Brazil. a regular citizen of modest means doesn't have a chance. it would be a short video.

DaftLikeAFox 03-29-2010 11:37 AM

The most important thing is that you don't stand so close to them. Keep your distance and maybe find an indirect and untraceable method of communication, like a message in a bottle or something.

julz 03-29-2010 12:21 PM

Here is a real situation I was in:



One Saturday morning, the police knocked on my door and wanted to ask some questions regarding a car that had been reported parked in front of my house, but was no longer there.



Should I have refused to answer the question? (I'll tell you later how it turned out)

JLRodgers 03-29-2010 12:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by julz View Post

Here is a real situation I was in:



One Saturday morning, the police knocked on my door and wanted to ask some questions regarding a car that had been reported parked in front of my house, but was no longer there.



Should I have refused to answer the question? (I'll tell you later how it turned out)



Ooh... tricky... Technically one could answer in a generic way such as saying you were not paying attention to any vehicles or people on the street, and until they mentioned it to you, and the most you are aware of knowing (say you know nothing, and later find out the vehicle was owned by someone you once knew, and you could be screwed) is what they just told you.



Yet if it was a drug dealer or such, they might pick you up for buying drugs or something. I wouldn't let them search my house or property though.

Kellye 03-29-2010 12:34 PM

I don't believe in talking to the police, period. I won't even open the door to them, because as soon as you do you surrender your right to keep them out. There are no laws requiring you to open your door to them unless they have a warrant.

julz 03-29-2010 12:46 PM

See, I look at it as the police have a job to do. If they are asking me a question, there was probably a crime committed that they need to investigate and I can help them by answering their questions.



I am a position of authority in my job and occasionally must must get to the bottom of a situation, so I understand the need for others to cooperate with questioning.



My understanding of these videos and the opinions of several on this forum, is that it would be unwise to cooperate beyond what is legally required. Am I reading this correctly?



I am not trying to disagree with anyone, I just want to know what others think regarding cooperating when not under arrest. I totally get not talking if you are arrested, although, I would have a hard time keeping my trap shut.

julz 03-29-2010 12:48 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellye View Post

I don't believe in talking to the police, period. I won't even open the door to them, because as soon as you do you surrender your right to keep them out. There are no laws requiring you to open your door to them unless they have a warrant.



Have you personally had a bad experience with them?

Kiz 03-29-2010 12:51 PM

You only need one bad experience, julz, I guess. I've had two, now. No way will I ever trust the buggers again. They have enough power as it is, no need to give them more than they deserve.

Red 03-29-2010 12:55 PM

Unless, of course, we're the victim of the crime they're investigating. In which case, kicking a little ass and taking names ain't quite such a bad thing.

Kellye 03-29-2010 01:06 PM

Quote:
See, I look at it as the police have a job to do. If they are asking me a question, there was probably a crime committed that they need to investigate and I can help them by answering their questions.



Here's the way I see it: if they can't tell me in very specific terms what they're investigating, I can't help them. If they can't be honest with me, I have no motivation to be honest with them. Any conversation I have with a cop (through a closed door) that leads to, "We are not at liberty to disclose that information," is going to earn a, "Well, good luck with your interrogations!" and an end to the discussion from me.



While there are some good cops, there is a lot of corruption in law enforcement because they simply aren't held accountable in the same way that your average citizen is. I've seen enough abuses of their authority to be wary of them. Over the last 30 years, the U.S. penal population increased from around 300,000 to more than two million - I don't feel obligated to help put anyone else behind bars, no matter what they've done, as long as it wasn't a violent crime.



Anyone interested in the subject of mass incarceration should read The New Jim Crow: Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness by Michelle Alexander.

julz 03-29-2010 01:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

You only need one bad experience, julz, I guess. I've had two, now. No way will I ever trust the buggers again. They have enough power as it is, no need to give them more than they deserve.



I have been in situations where police were intimidating. Every time, I was acting like a punk, though. I do worry about the balance of power. A police officer's word is taken over the word of an ordinary citizen most times.

Kellye 03-29-2010 01:16 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by julz View Post

I have been in situations where police were intimidating. Every time, I was acting like a punk, though. I do worry about the balance of power. A police officer's word is taken over the word of an ordinary citizen most times.



I have to say, any time I have ever dealt with the police, I've always been super polite to them. I'm just not going to give them any more authority over me than necessary.



You got to be careful standing up to the police these days though - they're likely to crack your head or Taser you if you give them lip.


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