The War on Baby Girls - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 03-15-2010, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Red View Post

Yes it does. Where did I state Irizary's position, other than to directly quote?



If she ever said "it's only a fetus and doesn't count the same as a baby so it's ok", I missed it.



Even if she said that, it's not inconsistent with, "I think it pretty much follows that if your parents don't want you so much they purposely kill you once they realize what you are before you are even born, that you will not be treated well by those caretakers if you are made to be born against those parents' wishes. "
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#62 Old 03-15-2010, 08:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlp View Post

If she ever said "it's only a fetus and doesn't count the same as a baby so it's ok", I missed it.



Try this:



Quote:
Originally Posted by quote View Post

Argument A



me: That stands in contrast to argument B.
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#63 Old 03-15-2010, 08:44 PM
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Why a third and not a half?



Think it might have been a case of is the wine bottle 1/3rd full or 2/3rds empty das , and they went with the 1/3rd full to get it moving .



And why not extend this bill to other groups? For example, perhaps Indian Parliament should properly reflect the racial and caste makeup of India?



^^http://www.barandbench.com/index.php...ef&id=580&gn=0



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The Women’s Reservation Bill will ensure that 33 percent of the seats are reserved for women in the Parliament and State Assemblies. Women from Scheduled Castes and Tribes will have a 1/3rd reservation for women within the allocated reservation. This means that of the 141 women Parliamentarians, 40 will belong to Scheduled Castes and Tribes.

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#64 Old 03-15-2010, 10:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

I think it pretty much follows that if your parents don't want you so much they purposely kill you once they realize what you are before you are even born, that you will not be treated well by those caretakers if you are made to be born against those parents' wishes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Red View Post

Then that pretty much flies in the face of the argument that "it's only a fetus and doesn't count the same as a baby so it's ok".

Only if you think 'ok' (to abort) must mean an expected baby girl has zero value to the parents
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#65 Old 03-16-2010, 03:22 PM
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one of the things that i haven't read yet on this thread is the outcome if the males out number the females. that is, the long term outcome.



i remember reading an article about women in rural china, where the situation of one child policy and the desire for males has been going on long enough for there to be more available adult males than available adult females. common practice: steal/kidnap females from their families (or husbands and children), and then force them into new marriages with their kidnappers--a process usually accomplished by a fair bit of violence against those women (beatings, rape, sold to families who want wives for their sons, etc).



i agree that an unwanted child being raised by those 'caregivers' is probably not going to lead to positive outcomes for those children (eg, potentially subject to emotional or physical abuse, neglect, and obviously the violence of infanticide), but the long term consequences of killing female children more often than not also leads to a long term situation of violence against women as they become a resource for reproduction, one that can be stolen, bought or sold, etc.
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#66 Old 03-17-2010, 06:02 PM
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1. The government policies in India and China aimed at preventing this practice aren't 'standing up for women' - they are social engineering efforts designed to serve the interests of men. The real "danger" in sex selective abortions is that more men will have a harder time finding a partner; similarly however women have easier times finding partners and thus have greater relative social capital where there are fewer women and more men.



2. We can think that the sex of a fetus shouldn't matter but the reality is that it does to most people in that gender is the #1 variable most parents deal with in terms of their potential offspring. When you refuse to allow a woman to know the gender of her fetus, and the gender is material to whether or not she would desire to continue the pregnancy, you are depriving her of the information required to exercise choices over her own bodily autonomy. You can say that choosing to abort a fetus just because it is female (or male) is a "bad choice" but then entire point having a choice is being permitted to choose against others preferences - otherwise there is no choice at all. If you only want one baby and you'd prefer a son - you should not be forced to carry a daughter to term against your will no matter how provincial your preference seems to entitled westerners.



3. The correct policy response should be to tackle sex discrimination and the undervaluation of women, which should as a side effect mean that fewer expectant mothers prefer sons over daughters (though many still will for arbitrary reasons!). Instead effectively punishing women by removing their choices only amplifies the problem.
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#67 Old 03-17-2010, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoebird View Post

one of the things that i haven't read yet on this thread is the outcome if the males out number the females. that is, the long term outcome.



i remember reading an article about women in rural china, where the situation of one child policy and the desire for males has been going on long enough for there to be more available adult males than available adult females. common practice: steal/kidnap females from their families (or husbands and children), and then force them into new marriages with their kidnappers--a process usually accomplished by a fair bit of violence against those women (beatings, rape, sold to families who want wives for their sons, etc).



i agree that an unwanted child being raised by those 'caregivers' is probably not going to lead to positive outcomes for those children (eg, potentially subject to emotional or physical abuse, neglect, and obviously the violence of infanticide), but the long term consequences of killing female children more often than not also leads to a long term situation of violence against women as they become a resource for reproduction, one that can be stolen, bought or sold, etc.



A few things:



1. The discrepancy between males and females isn't that big, and kidnapping, rape, etc happens in all countries regardless of gender balance - even if what you are saying is true it is a wild leap to think that violence against women is caused by gender imbalance caused by sex selective abortions. Sex slavery and trafficing occurs in greater numbers in places where there is no practice of sex selective abortion.



2. The solution should be to step up policing against abduction, rape and so on, not to police women's choices about their own bodies - the target of state repression should be the kidnappers rather than depriving all women of the information they need to decide whether or not they want to continue a pregnancy. Crime needs to be prevented by going after the criminals, not by expropriating innocent people's bodies for use in social engineering purposes - no matter how sensible the social engineering objective is.
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#68 Old 03-19-2010, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarita Osita View Post

The apparently outlawed caste system is alive and well in India, unfortunately. Where I visited there was no visible preference for children's gender thankfully, but I'm sure it's still strong in many areas.

well not many of the girls go clubbing. sausage fest.



Quote:
Originally Posted by suchgreatheight View Post

no matter how provincial your preference seems to entitled westerners.

okay but if you're a non-entitled person from the world south and pretty sure the preferences are because of entrenched patriarchy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by suchgreatheight View Post

but then entire point having a choice is being permitted to choose against others preferences - otherwise there is no choice at all.

so they aren't free to choose against others preferences in the patriarchy and they can't be subject to the opinions of entitled westerners. to be able to choose without regard to the reaction of anybody. that's a high standard. how like a god.

* This post may contain pork, beef and fingers of undocumented workers. This post was manufactured in a facility that processes peanuts.
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