The War on Baby Girls - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 03-11-2010, 10:03 PM
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This is going to cause troubles down the road.
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#32 Old 03-11-2010, 11:41 PM
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Yeah, it's kinda hard to understand why they need to be aborted if they don't exist. And if a fetus is well enough developed that you can distinguish her gender, I think that's as good a point as any to consider her a person with as much interest in having a life as mussels and clams have, at the very least.

The fetuses existed. The "baby girls" or "children" did not exist. Not yet, anyway. "1,000,000 fetuses killed" or "the war on female fetuses", sure, but the war on "baby girls"? Way too emotive for my tastes. I generally dislike abortion, particularly for reasons such as "I don't like the gender", but calling this a "war" on "baby girls" is just slightly too purple prose for me.

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#33 Old 03-12-2010, 12:14 AM
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The fetuses existed. The "baby girls" or "children" did not exist. Not yet, anyway. "1,000,000 fetuses killed" or "the war on female fetuses", sure, but the war on "baby girls"? Way too emotive for my tastes. I generally dislike abortion, particularly for reasons such as "I don't like the gender", but calling this a "war" on "baby girls" is just slightly too purple prose for me.

all well, the cover story article in The Economist was called The Worldwide War on Baby Girls.



here it is, probably should have opened with it but i found the other one and assumed the full print story wasn't available on the website.

http://www.economist.com/world/inter...ry_id=15636231



Quote:
Originally Posted by mouse View Post

This is why more males than females are born - the little buggers just die off faster than their female counterparts:



Sex ratio

at birth: 1.07 male(s)/female

under 15 years: 1.06 male(s)/female

15-64 years: 1.02 male(s)/female

65 years and over: 0.78 male(s)/female

total population: 1.01 male(s)/female (2009 est.)

so you're saying that the sex ratio hasn't changed over time and that males just die more often? i don't think that fully explains it at all.

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#34 Old 03-12-2010, 01:22 AM
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You can tell the sex of a fetus at about 18 weeks. In the UK you can have an abortion up to 24 weeks at the latest, most are performed at 13-20 weeks. Obviously this isn't happening in the UK, but that's just to give people an idea.



It does sound cold, but I'd rather that they are aborted than born and then abandonded and/or abused.
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#35 Old 03-12-2010, 01:41 AM
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It does sound cold, but I'd rather that they are aborted than born and then abandonded and/or abused.

well, i got my fingers crossed hoping they be born AND not abandoned or abused. false dichotomy.

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#36 Old 03-12-2010, 02:33 AM
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Don't worry, I'm sure China will find a solution to the problem of aborted female fetus and killed female babies soon - like a spermicide that only kills XX sperm, or a condom that allows only XY sperm to pass through.
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#37 Old 03-12-2010, 04:55 AM
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well, i got my fingers crossed hoping they be born AND not abandoned or abused. false dichotomy.



Not a false dichotomy in current circumstances.
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#38 Old 03-12-2010, 05:03 AM
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Otomik was the one that linked to the mistreatment of baby girls brought to full term, too, so that confused me.

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#39 Old 03-12-2010, 07:20 AM
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Don't worry, I'm sure China will find a solution to the problem of aborted female fetus and killed female babies soon - like a spermicide that only kills XX sperm, or a condom that allows only XY sperm to pass through.



I will never understand people who think the answer to sexism and racism is simply to have more babies of that sex/race. As if the world at large just needs to see cute little babies, and all of those engrained prejudices will just vanish. To quote shakesville, that **** don't happen in a vacuum.

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#40 Old 03-12-2010, 01:04 PM
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In China it is illegal for a doctor to tell you the sex of your unbaby based on an ultrasound for this reason, which is why there are black market doctors going around countryside villages doing it. Perhaps another unusual practice is that even if they discover that it is a boy, they may still tell the parents that it is a girl so they can charge a little more money to perform the abortion.



I don't think this is a situation anyone can just fix, but I think it will be somewhat self correcting as culture catches up with industrialization. The average number of children per couple in Hong Kong, where there is no one child policy, is less than one. In a place where manual labor is the only way to survive, people want children that can begin helping out with simple tasks at a very young age. As the cost of raising and educating a child (a 20+ year process) in an industrializing nation goes up, the number of children born goes down.

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#41 Old 03-12-2010, 01:55 PM
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so you're saying that the sex ratio hasn't changed over time and that males just die more often? i don't think that fully explains it at all.



I'm saying that, as far back as such things have been measured, and thoughout the world, there are more male humans born than female. Yes, in some cultures, female babies are not valued, and historically females have been killed or left to die in those cultures, and now, with the advent of the ability to determine sex prior to birth, many are instead being aborted.



If you read the article I posted earlier, you would see that there is now rising concern because it appears that men who have been exposed to certain environmental contaminants father a lower proportion of males than has historically been the case. Worldwide, the ratio of male births to female births is becoming lower than it has been historically. In other words, the propensity to abort females in some cultures is being offset by the lower overall male birth rates attributed to pollutants.



The concept of selective abortion of females excites outrage easily, but the real answer to that is changing the cultural attitudes involved, not bringing more baby girls into the culture to be neglected and abused. Ironically, those cultural attitudes may ultimately be changed by the very practices that they encourage: as the society feels the effects of a shortage of females, females should become more valued.



If you're concerned about a decline in the birth rates of one sex over another, you should probably be more worried about the endangered baby boys.
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#42 Old 03-12-2010, 03:04 PM
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o, are we going to see a jump in gay bare branches after this?



doesn't do China much good to have a whole bunch of sons to carry on the family name if there is no one to carry it.



i'm gonna tell all my queer dudes to move to china.

cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war.
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#43 Old 03-12-2010, 03:40 PM
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Probably more prostitution, more sexual assaults, and probably a set-back for women's rights as well.
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#44 Old 03-12-2010, 11:01 PM
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o, are we going to see a jump in gay bare branches after this?

yeah k. it was already covered in the 21st century bioethics courtroom drama Century City.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/78155/cent...0,vepisode,1,0

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#45 Old 03-12-2010, 11:56 PM
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Not a false dichotomy in current circumstances.

in current circumstances? which ones? are these insurmountable barriers?



these children are not unwanted children. some mothers have unwanted pregnancies. the children are wanted by someone.





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This seems to be one of your favorite anti-abortion rights arguments, Otomik.

abortion should be legal. whatever bull**** you want to throw under the nebulous term of "abortion rights" well that's your own thing.

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#46 Old 03-13-2010, 12:52 PM
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these children are not unwanted children. some mothers have unwanted pregnancies. the children are wanted by someone.



Really? Then how do you account for 13-210 MILLION orphans worldwide? http://myorphanage.org/total%20numbe...20children.php



And that's just orphans, in institutions or out on the streets. It doesn't include those who are in foster care because of parental abuse and/or neglect, or those still being tormented at home.



Are you really as incredibly ignorant as you sound of the reality in which so many millions of children live?
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#47 Old 03-13-2010, 01:04 PM
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mouse, remember that it takes **** tons of money to adopt a child, and in some states it's illegal for gay people to adopt children. if we worked out some of those things, i'm sure that number would drop.




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#48 Old 03-13-2010, 01:13 PM
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It's very sad, but the vast majority of people who want children want to produce those children themselves. Also, most who do want to adopt will want to adopt a baby, not an older child and it's even less likely they'll want a teenager. Sad, but true. I've known many children who were in foster care because they weren't appealing enough. They were usually a bit older, and many had behavioural problems in one form or another. I would have adopted them all if I could lol, they were some of the greatest kids I've ever met.
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#49 Old 03-13-2010, 03:16 PM
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mouse, remember that it takes **** tons of money to adopt a child, and in some states it's illegal for gay people to adopt children. if we worked out some of those things, i'm sure that number would drop.






Yeah, I know it takes money to adopt - it takes money to raise a child too. Do you really think that lifting restrictions in those states where gays aren't allowed to adopt will mean tens, if not hundreds, of millions of warehoused children (and that's just counting the orphans) will be adopted? I don't think so. I think the vast majority of people want their "own" biological children - people spend fortunes on fertility treatments, after all. And, as Mollfie pointed out, of those who are willing to adopt, very few want anything other than a healthy infant.



I think that there should be financial assistance available to help defray the costs of adoption for people who are willing to adopt non-infants, but I don't think that that alone would greatly decrease the number of children with no real parents. (The people I've known personally who have adopted older children and/or children with special needs haven't been well off - they've just been committed to helping children.)
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#50 Old 03-14-2010, 03:03 PM
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no, not tens of thousands, but it would help, and when you are talking about children who need homes, any drop in that number would be great.

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#51 Old 03-14-2010, 03:26 PM
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no, not tens of thousands, but it would help, and when you are talking about children who need homes, any drop in that number would be great.



Agreed.
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#52 Old 03-14-2010, 04:07 PM
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Both India and China are going to end up as continent's full of frustrated males , and I don't buy in this abort millions of females because they didn't exist anyway and if born , will all be abused view , but interesting reading , wow . But the changing of cultural views as expressed by some is a good start and it looks like it will happen in India , they are almost there , with 1/3 woman to be elected into Parliament .



Quote:
NEW DELHI - India's upper house of parliament voted overwhelmingly Tuesday for a historic bill that would reserve one-third of legislative seats for women, despite a boycott by socialist lawmakers.



Prime Minister Manmohan Singh described the 186-1 vote a "historic step forward toward emancipation of Indian womanhood." The bill now goes to the lower house, where it is likely to pass.



Members greeted the announcement of the voting result by thumping their desks.



The vote came after socialist lawmakers blocked the parliamentary debate on Monday and forced the upper house to adjourn twice on Tuesday. The protesters later boycotted the voting.



The bill to reserve one-third of legislative seats for women — in national and state parliaments — has faced strong opposition since it was first proposed more than a decade ago, with many political leaders worried that their male-dominated parties would lose seats.



But socialist lawmakers' objection is that the bill does not go far enough: They would like to see seats reserved for ethnic minorities and people from low castes.



The Bahujan Samaj Party lawmakers, who mainly represent lower castes, participated in the debate but abstained from voting. They were protesting the government's rejection of their demand to reserve seats for women belonging to their community within the government proposal.



On Monday, angry legislators in the Rajya Sabha, the upper house of parliament, rushed to the chairman's seat as he presided over the session, tore up copies of the bill and tried to grab his microphone.



The bill is expected to be taken up the powerful lower house of parliament for voting next week. It will have to be approved by 15 of India's 28 states before it becomes law.





http://www.startribune.com/world/871...Bcy7hUiacyKUUr
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#53 Old 03-14-2010, 04:34 PM
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I don't buy in this abort millions of females because they didn't exist anyway and if born , will all be abused view



I think it pretty much follows that if your parents don't want you so much they purposely kill you once they realize what you are before you are even born, that you will not be treated well by those caretakers if you are made to be born against those parents' wishes.

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#54 Old 03-14-2010, 04:58 PM
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I think it pretty much follows that if your parents don't want you so much they purposely kill you once they realize what you are before you are even born, that you will not be treated well by those caretakers if you are made to be born against those parents' wishes.



This.



Of course, IMO, if you're willing to abort because the baby would be the "wrong" sex, you shouldn't be having children in any event. God forbid if your "perfect" child would end up being less than good looking, or have a learning disability, or otherwise "disappoint" you....
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#55 Old 03-14-2010, 05:05 PM
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I think it pretty much follows that if your parents don't want you so much they purposely kill you once they realize what you are before you are even born, that you will not be treated well by those caretakers if you are made to be born against those parents' wishes.



Well that where adoption comes in and the changing of cultural views .
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#56 Old 03-14-2010, 05:50 PM
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I think it pretty much follows that if your parents don't want you so much they purposely kill you once they realize what you are before you are even born, that you will not be treated well by those caretakers if you are made to be born against those parents' wishes.



Then that pretty much flies in the face of the argument that "it's only a fetus and doesn't count the same as a baby so it's ok".
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#57 Old 03-15-2010, 12:59 AM
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Both India and China are going to end up as continent's full of frustrated males , and I don't buy in this abort millions of females because they didn't exist anyway and if born , will all be abused view , but interesting reading , wow . But the changing of cultural views as expressed by some is a good start and it looks like it will happen in India , they are almost there , with 1/3 woman to be elected into Parliament.



Why a third and not a half?



And why not extend this bill to other groups? For example, perhaps Indian Parliament should properly reflect the racial and caste makeup of India?
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#58 Old 03-15-2010, 04:38 AM
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Why a third and not a half?



And why not extend this bill to other groups? For example, perhaps Indian Parliament should properly reflect the racial and caste makeup of India?

The apparently outlawed caste system is alive and well in India, unfortunately. Where I visited there was no visible preference for children's gender thankfully, but I'm sure it's still strong in many areas.
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#59 Old 03-15-2010, 09:00 AM
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Then that pretty much flies in the face of the argument that "it's only a fetus and doesn't count the same as a baby so it's ok".



Actually, no, it doesn't. (However, I don't think that what you stated is Irizary's position in any event.)
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#60 Old 03-15-2010, 09:03 AM
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Actually, no, it doesn't. (However, I don't think that what you stated is Irizary's position in any event.)



Yes it does. Where did I state Irizary's position, other than to directly quote?
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