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#61 Old 01-28-2010, 05:05 AM
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I never said it was. I feel like people are reading much more into my statement then what I had intended. I did not mean to imply that misanthropic people relish human suffering. I don't mean all misanthropes, either. I was just curious about people who claim that humans are a blight on the earth, wish we'd go extinct, etc... ah, nevermind. Maybe it was just too darn soon to make a comment like that.



Looking back I can see how the comment may have seemed insensitive. I really didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings (seems like I have). Sorry about that!



I'm not saying you did say that, I was just clarifying how I saw it. I'm sure you're right in that there are some people who really enjoy that kind of stuff (and that's the part I was referring to being ****ed up), but I don't think misanthropy generally implies any kind of positive gain from seeing tragedies like this.

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#62 Old 01-28-2010, 01:59 PM
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I don't think misanthropy generally implies any kind of positive gain from seeing tragedies like this.

I feel rather neutral on the issue, which I think is why I'm kind of getting accused to being heartless. I don't know these people, so the extent of my concern is limited, however it's also because I don't know these people that I can't be completely uncaring about it. I think that goes for anybody.
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#63 Old 01-29-2010, 08:33 AM
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It really irritates me when people act like somehow Americans are different than other humans. A national boarder does not mean that Haitians don't matter and that we shouldn't care. Yeah the economy sucks right now, but look at Haiti's economy-it doesn't exist! And in the mean time there is suffering over there that my spoiled American self can't even begin to comprehend. God bless America my ass, how about God bless the world.



To begin I must point out that I am not opposed to the help we have given to Haiti, in fact without our help and aid Haiti would still be waiting for the rest of the world to step up and do more. However, I do have concerns about our continued open hand policy of rushing to the aid of others when we have problems of our own.



this is a quote from one of our most important documents:



"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."



I am just curious what in that quote would imply the US gov'ts job is to be concerned with supplying aid to other nations? If we look at this document (which every elected Federal representitave takes an oath to uphold and protect) in particular the quote I posted can anyone please tell me who the US gov't is empowered to be concerned with?



I am sympathetic to the plight of Haiti, as I was sympathetic to the plight of those effected by the 04 tsnaumi and a host of other natural disasters around the world. However, I am also concerned with what is going on in our nation. We have a reported 10% unemployment rate, aprox 10 million people out of work, many living on the streets, looking for food, shelter and aid. Our gov't is in serious debt to foreign nations, with no coherent strategy to fix our problems. Yet here we are promising to fix another nation with more borrowed money.
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#64 Old 01-29-2010, 10:51 AM
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To begin I must point out that I am not opposed to the help we have given to Haiti, in fact without our help and aid Haiti would still be waiting for the rest of the world to step up and do more. However, I do have concerns about our continued open hand policy of rushing to the aid of others when we have problems of our own.



this is a quote from one of our most important documents:





ha ha ha, yeah, good ole america!
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#65 Old 01-29-2010, 10:55 AM
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ha ha ha, yeah, good ole america!



that's right, what exactly did England do in the first few days of the Haiti quake? What did the UN do? You sure you really want to go there?
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#66 Old 01-29-2010, 10:59 AM
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Actually, Canada gave more per capita, far more, than the US in the early days of the disaster.
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#67 Old 01-29-2010, 11:01 AM
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Actually, Canada gave more per capita, far more, than the US in the early days of the disaster.



really.... are you suggesting Canada has it's navy off the coast of Haiti supplying food, supplies, water, manpower, medical aid, etc? You got some links to back that up?
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#68 Old 01-29-2010, 11:26 AM
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that's right, what exactly did England do in the first few days of the Haiti quake? What did the UN do? You sure you really want to go there?



Why do americans always have to boil it down to "my country is better than yours"?

If you think i believe enlgand is a great country, youre sadly mistaken.
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#69 Old 01-29-2010, 11:27 AM
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"that's right, what exactly did England do in the first few days of the Haiti quake? What did the UN do? You sure you really want to go there?"



Haiti is our neighbor, about 565 miles from the US mainland, and less than 300 miles from Puerto Rico. Also, the US is inhabited by a large number of Haitians — who have come to the US for economic and other oppurtunities, but who still have family in Haiti. Once free from the constricting policital and economic climate of Haiti, Haitians in the US often advance educationally and economically at a rapid pace, and become influential in the political and economic decisions of the US. Thus is is no surprise that it has become policy of the US to do what we can for Haiti. Haiti, despite its excessive deforestation, still has beautiful, forested mountainous regions remaining, excellent agriculture regions, and very keen-minded, resourceful, productive, optimistic, life-loving people. I think that anything that involves cooperation by the United States with Haitians and improves the Haitian economy, helps the United States.
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#70 Old 01-29-2010, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by havocjohn View Post

that's right, what exactly did England do in the first few days of the Haiti quake? What did the UN do? You sure you really want to go there?



Why do americans always have to boil it down to "my country is better than yours"?

If you think i believe enlgand is a great country, youre sadly mistaken.



Youre right tho, the us was probably the first country there, ready to take control. What was it that the us first took to haiti? Ah, thats right, guns.
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#71 Old 01-29-2010, 11:35 AM
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Havocjohn and Stanie - it should be informative to you both that Soilman is the voice of both reason and compassion in this exchange.



To me, it's vastly amusing.
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#72 Old 01-29-2010, 11:42 AM
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Havocjohn and Stanie - it should be informative to you both that Soilman is the voice of both reason and compassion in this exchange.



To me, it's vastly amusing.



soilman has shown coherint thought in the past, not sure why that is amusing.... it's not just about compassion but reason does play a role.... I do however, get real tired of the anti American propaganda expressed by many on this board.
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#73 Old 01-29-2010, 11:44 AM
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Why do americans always have to boil it down to "my country is better than yours"?

If you think i believe enlgand is a great country, youre sadly mistaken.



Youre right tho, the us was probably the first country there, ready to take control. What was it that the us first took to haiti? Ah, thats right, guns.



and what exactly would you suggest they have done, just dropped food out of planes so people could fight over it and the strongest would have prevailed and taken advantge of those that couldn't fend for themselves....what idiot would drop a few thousand people into a disaster area with out giving them the means to defend themselves?
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#74 Old 01-29-2010, 11:46 AM
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and what exactly would you suggest they have done, just dropped food out of planes so people could fight over it and the strongest would have prevailed and taken advantge of those that couldn't fend for themselves....what idiot would drop a few thousand people into a disaster area with out giving them the means to defend themselves?



Is that what uncle sams been telling you? ha ha ha
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#75 Old 01-29-2010, 11:47 AM
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Soilman is actually always very coherent. What I find amusing is that many think his views are odd, yet you and Stanie seem like squabbling little kids in comparison to his post.
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#76 Old 01-29-2010, 12:03 PM
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Soilman is actually always very coherent. What I find amusing is that many think his views are odd, yet you and Stanie seem like squabbling little kids in comparison to his post.



that maybe, but I didn't enter this discussion as a squabbling little kid, you would need to look at the "lefty" from across the pond who can only add little one line comments with the intention of belittling the US.... and some wonder why I don't come around anymore.
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#77 Old 01-29-2010, 12:05 PM
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Is that what uncle sams been telling you? ha ha ha



Actually no stanie, that would be a product of my past experinces in similar situations.... granted I was much younger but people in general haven't changed much since then.
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#78 Old 01-29-2010, 12:29 PM
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that maybe, but I didn't enter this discussion as a squabbling little kid, you would need to look at the "lefty" from across the pond who can only add little one line comments with the intention of belittling the US.... and some wonder why I don't come around anymore.



Everybody on here knows that Stanie (as well as a couple of others) is knee jerk anti U.S. There's a 60+ page thread that's still active that's nothing but a bunch of squabbling. (It's the America loves to take everything personally thread.)
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#79 Old 01-29-2010, 12:32 PM
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Everybody on here knows that Stanie (as well as a couple of others) is knee jerk anti U.S. There's a 60+ page thread that's still active that's nothing but a bunch of squabbling. (It's the America loves to take everything personally thread.)



well I have been away and though I remember some anti US people I had forgotten others.
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#80 Old 01-29-2010, 12:44 PM
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what idiot would drop a few thousand people into a disaster area with out giving them the means to defend themselves?

That's a good point, but if it's true that the military was the first "aid" to appear, that's none too quaint.



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Havocjohn and Stanie - it should be informative to you both that Soilman is the voice of both reason and compassion in this exchange.



Soilman is actually always very coherent. What I find amusing is that many think his views are odd, yet you and Stanie seem like squabbling little kids in comparison to his post.



Everybody on here knows that Stanie (as well as a couple of others) is knee jerk anti U.S. There's a 60+ page thread that's still active that's nothing but a bunch of squabbling. (It's the America loves to take everything personally thread.)



You're being very rude, mlp. Both stanie and havocjohn have made valid points, but you seem to be dismissing their thoughts on the grounds that they aren't all completely ignored in favor of helping a foreign country. Also Stanie's other thread wasn't used as a point, but an excuse to discredit them and that is hardly called for.



You're calling other posters kids despite their content, yet you're the one unabashedly making derisive commentary without giving substance to your "OMG WUZ WRONG WIT U" posts. Your other Compost Heap posts I've seen have been fairly critical without original valid contribution also. And that's not an attempt to discredit, that's a point. A point to say that you, apparently more than anyone else, are being wholly unhealthy to these discussion topics.
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#81 Old 01-29-2010, 01:11 PM
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That's a good point, but if it's true that the military was the first "aid" to appear, that's none too quaint.



the military is normally the first aid to respond in any disaster by simple reason of availiblity, the US has a rapid response force on standby 24/7 which is why the 82nd airborne was the first on the scene, it's not like there are a bunch of civilians sitting on standby waiting for something to go wrong in the world, nor is there a civilian force waiting around ready to mobilize a bunch of naval vessels equiped to provide medical help and produce water... so I am not sure why you would find that as quaint.
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#82 Old 01-29-2010, 01:14 PM
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You're being very rude, mlp. Both stanie and havocjohn have made valid points, but you seem to be dismissing their thoughts on the grounds that they aren't all completely ignored in favor of helping a foreign country. Also Stanie's other thread wasn't used as a point, but an excuse to discredit her and that is hardly called for.



You're calling other posters kids despite their content, yet you're the one unabashedly making derisive commentary without giving substance to your "OMG WUZ WRONG WIT U" posts. Your other Compost Heap posts I've seen have been fairly critical without original valid contribution also. And that's not an attempt to discredit, that's a point. A point to say that you, apparently more than anyone else, are being wholly unhealthy to these discussion topics.



1. Stanie is a guy, not a "her."

2. Yeah, they're squabbling like little kids. Havocjohn didn't take offense, I doubt Stanie did (one of the things I like about Stanie is that he doesn't run crying over every perceived slight), and if you noticed, I pointed out that all of us who participated in the other thread (including me) were doing the same thing.

3. You don't like criticism and you don't like anyone disagreeing with you. You need to get over that, if you're going to go around calling yourself "precocious" - whining isn't a sign of precociousness.
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#83 Old 01-29-2010, 01:16 PM
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and what exactly would you suggest they have done, just dropped food out of planes so people could fight over it and the strongest would have prevailed and taken advantge of those that couldn't fend for themselves....what idiot would drop a few thousand people into a disaster area with out giving them the means to defend themselves?



i think we figured out during Katrina that doing that wasn't the best thing. If you left your home & went to some "refugee" spot, your guns were confiscated. I remember the sheer horror at seeing pictures my friends had taken in "red cross jail" of giant trash cans overflowing with weaponry. if you made the choice to get govt. assistance like that, you had to dump the guns, and basically become inmates in the red cross camps or whatever.



of course, the people who didn't go there, kept their weapons, and used them to keep people away from resources they had gotten, or a dry spot they had found, or to steal those things from others. it was pure anarchy, and that was in america with some sort of structure. i can't even imagine what it would be like in haiti where there wasn't even structure to begin with.

cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war.
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#84 Old 01-29-2010, 01:17 PM
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the military is normally the first aid to respond in any disaster by simple reason of availiblity, the US has a rapid response force on standby 24/7 which is why the 82nd airborne was the first on the scene, it's not like there are a bunch of civilians sitting on standby waiting for something to go wrong in the world, nor is there a civilian force waiting around ready to mobilize a bunch of naval vessels equiped to provide medical help and produce water... so I am not sure why you would find that as quaint.

I can't argue with that. I see the same thing with police cars when it comes to house fires or emergency medical aid. Though, I've personally never seen much benefit to them.
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#85 Old 01-29-2010, 01:21 PM
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I can't argue with that. I see the same thing with police cars when it comes to house fires or emergency medical aid. Though, I've personally never seen much benefit to them.



Crowd and traffic control. There are always gawkers, and a lot of time, they impede the ability of firemen and EMTs to do their job efficiently. God knows, half the time people don't get their cars out of the way when an ambulance is coming through with sirens going.
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#86 Old 01-29-2010, 01:23 PM
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2. Yeah, they're squabbling like little kids. Havocjohn didn't take offense, I doubt Stanie did (one of the things I like about Stanie is that he doesn't run crying over every perceived slight), and if you noticed, I pointed out that all of us who participated in the other thread (including me) were doing the same thing.

So? That doesn't matter. It's not relevant to the discussion or worth mentioning.



Quote:
3. You don't like criticism and you don't like anyone disagreeing with you. You need to get over that,

If I didn't like criticism, I wouldn't have started the threads mlp. You assume too much. You need to get over that.



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if you're going to go around calling yourself "precocious" - whining isn't a sign of precociousness.

I wasn't complimenting myself, and stay on topic.



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i think we figured out during Katrina that doing that wasn't the best thing. If you left your home & went to some "refugee" spot, your guns were confiscated. I remember the sheer horror at seeing pictures my friends had taken in "red cross jail" of giant trash cans overflowing with weaponry. if you made the choice to get govt. assistance like that, you had to dump the guns, and basically become inmates in the red cross camps or whatever.



of course, the people who didn't go there, kept their weapons, and used them to keep people away from resources they had gotten, or a dry spot they had found, or to steal those things from others. it was pure anarchy, and that was in america with some sort of structure. i can't even imagine what it would be like in haiti where there wasn't even structure to begin with.

In that case it seemed like confiscating weaponry was the best idea, unless I'm missing something...



Quote:
Crowd and traffic control. There are always gawkers, and a lot of time, they impede the ability of firemen and EMTs to do their job efficiently. God knows, half the time people don't get their cars out of the way when an ambulance is coming through with sirens going.

There you have a point. Thank you.
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#87 Old 01-29-2010, 01:25 PM
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Crowd and traffic control. There are always gawkers, and a lot of time, they impede the ability of firemen and EMTs to do their job efficiently. God knows, half the time people don't get their cars out of the way when an ambulance is coming through with sirens going.



that infuriates me. i always feel like rolling my windows down and screaming "i hope no one moves over when its your wife dying or your god damn house is on fire!!!"



i've only gotten that mad twice though, but ugh that is a serious pet peeve of mine.

cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war.
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#88 Old 01-29-2010, 01:26 PM
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I can't argue with that. I see the same thing with police cars when it comes to house fires or emergency medical aid. Though, I've personally never seen much benefit to them.



primary purpose is crowd control, because people want to come see what's going on. The fire dept is doing it's job fighting the fire, so the police come in and do their job which in this case would be giving the fire dept/emt's room to do their jobs.
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#89 Old 01-29-2010, 01:29 PM
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In that case it seemed like confiscating weaponry was the best idea, unless I'm missing something...



yes, havocjohn was saying "we don't just drop people into situations like that without weaponry"?



i think the lessons we've learned from katrina have told us to NOT do that.




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#90 Old 01-29-2010, 01:30 PM
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i think we figured out during Katrina that doing that wasn't the best thing. If you left your home & went to some "refugee" spot, your guns were confiscated. I remember the sheer horror at seeing pictures my friends had taken in "red cross jail" of giant trash cans overflowing with weaponry. if you made the choice to get govt. assistance like that, you had to dump the guns, and basically become inmates in the red cross camps or whatever.



of course, the people who didn't go there, kept their weapons, and used them to keep people away from resources they had gotten, or a dry spot they had found, or to steal those things from others. it was pure anarchy, and that was in america with some sort of structure. i can't even imagine what it would be like in haiti where there wasn't even structure to begin with.



Katrina and gun confiscation.... I actually had/have a big problem with the way the police and guard confiscated weapons from law abiding citizens, I also had/have a problem with them forcing people from their homes.... but yeah it was anarchy there and yes it would be worse in a place like Haiti, and I don't have a problem with our troops having their weapons to protect themselves if the need arises.
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