Furor Erupts Over Atheist Display At State Capitol - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 12-28-2009, 09:35 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Beancounter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,339
http://cbs2chicago.com/politics/capi...2.1387754.html



So do you think that the sign qualifies as hate speech? Was the Atheist group intentionally pushing buttons or just expressing their viewpoint? Should all religious symbols (including an Atheist sign) be allowed on State property?



The group's spokesperson seemed to be happy that the sign caused attention/agitation. Kind of reminds me of another organization.



IMO, the group could have stated their opinion in a gentler way



Any other thoughts?

Happiness is not the result of a mathematical equation comparing the good times and bad times someone has had. It is a state of mind.
-nomad888
Beancounter is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 12-28-2009, 10:03 AM
Veggie Regular
 
suchgreatheight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 435
[QUOTE=Beancounter]http://cbs2chicago.com/politics/capi...2.1387754.html



So do you think that the sign qualifies as hate speech? [quote]



No, however I do think vandalizing and trying to steal the sign is hate speech, by definition: its a public expression of hatred against a religious minority, atheists.



Quote:
Was the Atheist group intentionally pushing buttons or just expressing their viewpoint?



When it comes to religion, you cannot do one without doing the other. As an atheist my "buttons" are pushed at the idea that a state house would unconstitutionally display a nativity scene, which as discussed in the article, implies the divinity of Christ as a savor and the damnation of atheists and other non-Christians.



Quote:
Should all religious symbols (including an Atheist sign) be allowed on State property?



No, they should all be banned. We have a secular state (not a christian or an atheist state), with a religiously diverse population and a constitutional prohibition on the establishment of state religion. These religious symbols are all unconstitional and socially offensive.



However if a state capitol building is going to push an offensive nativity scene then its obviously absolutely necessary that other religious persuasions including atheism be equally represented, otherwise it would be obvious that the state is endorsing christianity which would be blatantly illegal.
suchgreatheight is offline  
#3 Old 12-28-2009, 10:16 AM
Herbivorous Urchin
 
River's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,721
Separation of church and state, always. There shouldn't be ANY religious symbols there.

Quote:
"You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit.”
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
River is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#4 Old 12-28-2009, 10:18 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Eleven's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,908
The sign was on the rude side no doubt but that's why the 1st Amendment exists. Polite speech needs no protection.
Eleven is offline  
#5 Old 12-28-2009, 10:35 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
I think the sign was obnoxious. And I'm not a Christian, either.



But I don't think either the nativity scene or the sign had any business at the Capitol building. I believe in keeping all religion (or lack thereof) out of state affairs.
Kellye is offline  
#6 Old 12-28-2009, 10:43 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Beancounter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,339
Quote:
Originally Posted by LyricGaia View Post

Separation of church and state, always. There shouldn't be ANY religious symbols there.



Quote:
No, they should all be banned. We have a secular state (not a christian or an atheist state), with a religiously diverse population and a constitutional prohibition on the establishment of state religion.





+1

Happiness is not the result of a mathematical equation comparing the good times and bad times someone has had. It is a state of mind.
-nomad888
Beancounter is offline  
#7 Old 12-28-2009, 11:00 AM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
I agree that it should all be banned. It's the capitol building, it doesn't need religious symbols in it. They don't belong there.
GhostUser is offline  
#8 Old 12-28-2009, 11:32 AM
Veggie Regular
 
chryssiie718's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 2,769
I agree with the previous posters. Separation of church and state.... why these states get away with this is beyond me. If you must display a Christian scene, ALL others must be allowed as well. Be better if they followed the constitution and had NONE.

"Women & cats will do as they please, & men & dogs should relax & get used to the idea." Robert Heinlein
chryssiie718 is offline  
#9 Old 12-28-2009, 11:38 AM
Veggie Regular
 
LiveVegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 471
Ridiculous.



Athiests don't believe in any God at all. What difference does it make to them what other's believe?



I believe in keeping "Christian" things in our govenment buildings because our founding fathers were Christian. However, I'm not exactly known for being politically correct and definately not a conservative. Because of America's diverse cultural base, I really think people should chill out and be more tollerate of others. I mean, no one is being hurt or injured because there's a Christmas tree just before Christmas. IF you're anti-christian, hey, more power to you but take your religious hate elsewhere. Got sit with your friends and discuss how dumb religeon is or whatever they do. I still don't get why a person who is an admitted Athiest, who believes in no higher power, would really care what religeous things he/she walked past enough to be a tard and hang a sign up in an attempt to destroy someone's Christmas? Wow. Lame.
LiveVegan is offline  
#10 Old 12-28-2009, 11:59 AM
Veggie Regular
 
LiveVegan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 471
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveVegan View Post

Ridiculous.



Athiests don't believe in any God at all. What difference does it make to them what other's believe?



I believe in keeping "Christian" things in our govenment buildings because our founding fathers were Christian. However, I'm not exactly known for being politically correct and definately not a conservative. Because of America's diverse cultural base, I really think people should chill out and be more tollerate of others. I mean, no one is being hurt or injured because there's a Christmas tree just before Christmas. IF you're anti-christian, hey, more power to you but take your religious hate elsewhere. Got sit with your friends and discuss how dumb religeon is or whatever they do. I still don't get why a person who is an admitted Athiest, who believes in no higher power, would really care what religeous things he/she walked past enough to be a tard and hang a sign up in an attempt to destroy someone's Christmas? Wow. Lame.





I misread the article. If Christian things are displaying in our govenment buildings (as I said already was fine with me) then the same should be offered for all other religions. The fact that the sign was directly next to the nativity and Christmas tree was pretty tactless. But a Jew or buddist is just as much a citizen and should have their religion respected also. As far as....ATHIESTS, they don't have a religion. So how can they be called a religion and have equal rights of religion when they have no religion. That doesn't make sense.
LiveVegan is offline  
#11 Old 12-28-2009, 12:03 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
As far as....ATHIESTS, they don't have a religion. So how can they be called a religion and have equal rights of religion when they have no religion.



^ I agree with this. I don't think atheists have the right to publically denounce religious displays like that, because atheism isn't a religion. They have the right to not follow a religion, but they don't have the right to degrade the religions of others.



If you're not going to follow a religion, just...don't. Don't make a big ****ing deal about it. Because that's obnoxious. Just how I feel about it.
Kellye is offline  
#12 Old 12-28-2009, 12:07 PM
Veggie Regular
 
penny79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,946
I've been hit with obnoxious christian things at professional/career moments, but I just quietly voice my request for separation of church and state/church and office and hope it ends at that. It's no one's business I"m an atheist, unless I make it theirs.
penny79 is offline  
#13 Old 12-28-2009, 12:07 PM
Veggie Regular
 
veggiemeggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 846
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveVegan View Post

Ridiculous.



Athiests don't believe in any God at all. What difference does it make to them what other's believe?



I believe in keeping "Christian" things in our govenment buildings because our founding fathers were Christian. However, I'm not exactly known for being politically correct and definately not a conservative. Because of America's diverse cultural base, I really think people should chill out and be more tollerate of others. I mean, no one is being hurt or injured because there's a Christmas tree just before Christmas. IF you're anti-christian, hey, more power to you but take your religious hate elsewhere. Got sit with your friends and discuss how dumb religeon is or whatever they do. I still don't get why a person who is an admitted Athiest, who believes in no higher power, would really care what religeous things he/she walked past enough to be a tard and hang a sign up in an attempt to destroy someone's Christmas? Wow. Lame.



Can you expand a little bit on that? Many of our founding fathers were not Christians, they were deists. Also even if it were true that they were all Christians, I don't get how that logic follows. Despite separation between Church and state our government buildings can have religious displays if they are of the founding father's religion?
veggiemeggie is offline  
#14 Old 12-28-2009, 12:13 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by penny79 View Post

I've been hit with obnoxious christian things at professional/career moments, but I just quietly voice my request for separation of church and state/church and office and hope it ends at that. It's no one's business I"m an atheist, unless I make it theirs.



The only problem with Christian things is that Christians tend to be an evangelical faith, which can be generally pretty annoying for atheists and/or "heathens" such as myself.



I think a little tolerance and a good dose of humor go a long way. I'll just let it go most of the time, but I live in the Bible Belt so most of the time I really don't have a choice.
Kellye is offline  
#15 Old 12-28-2009, 12:16 PM
Veggie Regular
 
penny79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,946
I think there's a time and a place, though, and if you don't let it known what's appropriate, some people may never realize that something could be perceived as inappropriate. I know what you mean, though.....sometimes it's not worth the expression of awwe on their face, that they just met a witch.
penny79 is offline  
#16 Old 12-28-2009, 12:18 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Amy SF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Southern California
Posts: 20,217
First of all, the sign was placed in a state capitol building, not a federal building. So you would be violating church and state if the Illinois state constitution includes separation of church and state, which it probably does.



But other than that, whether the founding fathers of the US were deists or Christians, they were intelligent enough to include separation of church and state in the US constitution. They might have considered the atheist sign obnoxious and objected to its placement next to the Xmas tree. But they may have objected to the Xmas tree and nativity scene, also.

*this space not for sale*
Amy SF is offline  
#17 Old 12-28-2009, 12:25 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by penny79 View Post

I think there's a time and a place, though, and if you don't let it known what's appropriate, some people may never realize that something could be perceived as inappropriate. I know what you mean, though.....sometimes it's not worth the expression of awwe on their face, that they just met a witch.



Lol....



Most people here don't think of Buddhists at all except within the context of a kung fu movie, so whenever I make a quip about nobody celebrating Bodhi Day in government buildings in response to Christians Vs. Atheists, Year XXX, it's no fun because nobody knows what the hell I'm talking about anyway.
Kellye is offline  
#18 Old 12-28-2009, 12:33 PM
Veggie Regular
 
suchgreatheight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 435
Quote:
Athiests don't believe in any God at all. What difference does it make to them what other's believe?



When the state treats different groups of citizens with different levels of respect and esteem, it makes a profound difference to those it discriminates against. When the state believes that you are saved, and I am going to hell, and it indoctrinates children to believe the same, I am being relegated to a second class citizenship status.



How would you feel if they stamped Allah Ackbar on the coins and every courthouse had the phrase "There is No God But God And Mohammad is His Prophet" on their doors? Pretty alienated or would it make no difference to you?



Quote:
I believe in keeping "Christian" things in our govenment buildings because our founding fathers were Christian.



I'm sorry but that's just utterly false. Most of our "founding fathers" including the most famous ones were not Christian, they were overwhelming Deists and Unitarians. They believed in a non-interventionist, non-worldly, non-personal naturalistic "clockmaker god;" if they knew about darwinian evolution and the big bang theory they probably would have been atheists (why there are nearly no Deists today: we can explain what they couldn't):



http://freethought.mbdojo.com/foundingfathers.html



http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/ffnc/



The Constitution contains no references to God, and the Declaration of Independence refers to a non-specific 'Creator' and 'Natures God' and never to Jesus, Christianity or the god of the bible (which is more consistent with Deism than Christianity).



Evangelical Christianity is a new thing.



But even if it wasn't, even if you want to deny historical reality and pretend the "founding fathers" were Christians, they participated in and presided over one of the most brutal slave societies in history, oppressed women, and commit genocide on the largest scale against the Native Americans. Why should the contemporary state endorse their reactionary 18th century values?



Quote:
IF you're anti-christian, hey, more power to you but take your religious hate elsewhere. Got sit with your friends and discuss how dumb religeon is or whatever they do.



Comments like this are demeaning and insulting. What if we said "go sit with your friends and pray and discuss how sinful gays and abortion and atheists are." That would be prejudicial. So were you.



Quote:
I mean, no one is being hurt or injured because there's a Christmas tree just before Christmas.



No one is being hurt or injured because there is an atheist sign, not physically. And having a Christmas celebration organized by the state hurts us equally in non-physical ways. How would you feel if there was no Christmas celebration but the state house recognized Ramadan and celebrated Eid?



Quote:
I still don't get why a person who is an admitted Athiest, who believes in no higher power, would really care what religeous things he/she walked past enough to be a tard and hang a sign up in an attempt to destroy someone's Christmas?



Its not an attempt to "destroy someone's christmas" but to assert that we too exist, we too have civil rights and we demand respect.



If you think an atheist sign destroys your christmas say that your christmas tree destroys my atheist vacation and the secular integrity of the building that represents the very seat of the state. Our state, that is supposed to represent us as much as it does you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveVegan View Post

As far as....ATHIESTS, they don't have a religion. So how can they be called a religion and have equal rights of religion when they have no religion. That doesn't make sense.



We don't have an organized religion, but we certainly have religious beliefs, specifically that there is no god. We have beliefs about all religious questions, we just answer them differently. Freedom of religion necessarily entails freedom from others religion and freedom to deny their religious beliefs. All organized religions deny other organized religions beliefs, and they all demand freedom from those beliefs they hold to be false; so do we.
suchgreatheight is offline  
#19 Old 12-28-2009, 12:42 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 982
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beancounter View Post

http://cbs2chicago.com/politics/capi...2.1387754.html



So do you think that the sign qualifies as hate speech? Was the Atheist group intentionally pushing buttons or just expressing their viewpoint? Should all religious symbols (including an Atheist sign) be allowed on State property?



The group's spokesperson seemed to be happy that the sign caused attention/agitation. Kind of reminds me of another organization.



IMO, the group could have stated their opinion in a gentler way



Any other thoughts?



It was rather rudely worded, but if the state is going to allow the display of one group, it is obligated to allow the display of an opposing viewpoint. I am well aware that atheists can be rude about getting their point across, but the same can be said of any group. The interpretation of what's rude comes from where you stand on the subject up for discussion. Free speech can be a b*tch sometimes.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellye View Post

I think the sign was obnoxious. And I'm not a Christian, either.



But I don't think either the nativity scene or the sign had any business at the Capitol building. I believe in keeping all religion (or lack thereof) out of state affairs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by animallover7249 View Post

I agree that it should all be banned. It's the capitol building, it doesn't need religious symbols in it. They don't belong there.



I agree. My belief is that we could solve this problem by simply requiring that NO displays be allowed except on your own private property.




Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveVegan View Post

Ridiculous.



Athiests don't believe in any God at all. What difference does it make to them what other's believe?



I believe in keeping "Christian" things in our govenment buildings because our founding fathers were Christian. However, I'm not exactly known for being politically correct and definately not a conservative. Because of America's diverse cultural base, I really think people should chill out and be more tollerate of others. I mean, no one is being hurt or injured because there's a Christmas tree just before Christmas. IF you're anti-christian, hey, more power to you but take your religious hate elsewhere. Got sit with your friends and discuss how dumb religeon is or whatever they do. I still don't get why a person who is an admitted Athiest, who believes in no higher power, would really care what religeous things he/she walked past enough to be a tard and hang a sign up in an attempt to destroy someone's Christmas? Wow. Lame.



I think the argument of "What difference does it make to them what other's believe?" can be used in reverse too. This is something a great deal of the people I know forget... no matter what their religious beliefs. I don't care what others believe, but I sure as heck would like to believe what I want to without needing to explain myself to anyone. I also wonder why you feel an Atheist should just have to walk on past anything religious. If it's so easy, couldn't a Christian do the same with that anti-religious stuff? I think the true "tard" is anyone who lets a lame little sign or lame little decorated tree destroy their beliefs.



Quote:
Originally Posted by veggiemeggie View Post

Can you expand a little bit on that? Many of our founding fathers were not Christians, they were deists. Also even if it were true that they were all Christians, I don't get how that logic follows. Despite separation between Church and state our government buildings can have religious displays if they are of the founding father's religion?



It amazes me how much this Christian founding fathers thing gets regurgitated as truth. Our own founding fathers said it them selves... "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." Sounds to me like they didn't want religious beliefs to be governed, so I'm thinking they'd have had a problem with religious displays on government property.



But, that's all just the opinion of my "heathen" self and I know many disagree. *shrug*
earthwhispers is offline  
#20 Old 12-28-2009, 12:43 PM
Veggie Regular
 
suchgreatheight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 435
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy SF View Post

First of all, the sign was placed in a state capitol building, not a federal building. So you would be violating church and state if the Illinois state constitution includes separation of church and state, which it probably does.



This is not true today (it was before the 1890s). The 14th amendment via the Due Process clause "incorporated" portions of the Bill of Rights against the states governments. The Supreme Court held that the First Amendment's Establishment Clause was incorporated against the states in Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947). So it would be violating the law regardless of Illinois state constition.
suchgreatheight is offline  
#21 Old 12-28-2009, 12:45 PM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveVegan View Post

I misread the article. If Christian things are displaying in our govenment buildings (as I said already was fine with me) then the same should be offered for all other religions. The fact that the sign was directly next to the nativity and Christmas tree was pretty tactless. But a Jew or buddist is just as much a citizen and should have their religion respected also. As far as....ATHIESTS, they don't have a religion. So how can they be called a religion and have equal rights of religion when they have no religion. That doesn't make sense.



So everyone should have equal rights but atheists? awesome.
GhostUser is offline  
#22 Old 12-28-2009, 12:46 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Amy SF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Southern California
Posts: 20,217
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveVegan View Post

I misread the article. If Christian things are displaying in our govenment buildings (as I said already was fine with me) then the same should be offered for all other religions. The fact that the sign was directly next to the nativity and Christmas tree was pretty tactless. But a Jew or buddist is just as much a citizen and should have their religion respected also. As far as....ATHIESTS, they don't have a religion. So how can they be called a religion and have equal rights of religion when they have no religion. That doesn't make sense.



You misunderstand the issues here. First of all, we are questioning why there are religious displays in a public building in the first place, when there is supposed to be separation of church and state. Second of all, there is the issue of free speech. An atheist group has an absolute right to place a sign anywhere they wish stating what its members DON'T believe. Atheists don't ask for "equal rights of religion". We ask for equal respect by the state, which means free speech.

*this space not for sale*
Amy SF is offline  
#23 Old 12-28-2009, 12:47 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
When the state treats different groups of citizens with different levels of respect and esteem, it makes a profound difference to those it discriminates against. When the state believes that you are saved, and I am going to hell, and it indoctrinates children to believe the same, I am being relegated to a second class citizenship status.



You feel relegated to second class citizen by a Christmas tree?



Quote:
How would you feel if there was no Christmas celebration but the state house recognized Ramadan and celebrated Eid?



Since the state seems to recognize every flavor of religion and non-religion except mine during this time of year, shouldn't this be my *****?



Quote:
Its not an attempt to "destroy someone's christmas" but to assert that we too exist, we too have civil rights and we demand respect.



What should atheists be respected for, exactly? You already have the right to not attend midnight Mass or Seder, to not celebrate Bodhi Day, or any of the other religious rituals of the season. What more do you want?



Quote:
We don't have an organized religion, but we certainly have religious beliefs, specifically that there is no god.



I would think the belief that there is no god would be a non-belief.



Quote:
All organized religions deny other organized religions beliefs, and they all demand freedom from those beliefs they hold to be false; so do we.



But the difference between atheists and non-majority religions is that non-majority religions (like Hinduism and Buddhism in America, for example) don't go around every holiday season deliberately picking fights with the Christians over their decorations.



I don't get why people make such a big deal out of it. It just gets tiresome year after year.
Kellye is offline  
#24 Old 12-28-2009, 12:48 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Amy SF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Southern California
Posts: 20,217
Quote:
Originally Posted by suchgreatheight View Post

This is not true today (it was before the 1890s). The 14th amendment via the Due Process clause "incorporated" portions of the Bill of Rights against the states governments. The Supreme Court held that the First Amendment's Establishment Clause was incorporated against the states in Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947). So it would be violating the law regardless of Illinois state constition.



You know the law better than I do! Thanks for clarifying.

*this space not for sale*
Amy SF is offline  
#25 Old 12-28-2009, 12:50 PM
Herbivorous Urchin
 
River's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 9,721
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveVegan View Post

Ridiculous.



Athiests don't believe in any God at all. What difference does it make to them what other's believe?



I believe in keeping "Christian" things in our govenment buildings because our founding fathers were Christian. However, I'm not exactly known for being politically correct and definately not a conservative. Because of America's diverse cultural base, I really think people should chill out and be more tollerate of others. I mean, no one is being hurt or injured because there's a Christmas tree just before Christmas. IF you're anti-christian, hey, more power to you but take your religious hate elsewhere. Got sit with your friends and discuss how dumb religeon is or whatever they do. I still don't get why a person who is an admitted Athiest, who believes in no higher power, would really care what religeous things he/she walked past enough to be a tard and hang a sign up in an attempt to destroy someone's Christmas? Wow. Lame.



Well, the founding fathers weren't exactly christians, but that's a topic for a different thread.

Quote:
"You will always be fond of me. I represent to you all the sins you never had the courage to commit.”
Oscar Wilde, The Picture of Dorian Gray
River is offline  
#26 Old 12-28-2009, 01:00 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Amy SF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Southern California
Posts: 20,217
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellye View Post

You feel relegated to second class citizen by a Christmas tree?



Yes. Some people do. Christmas trees are absolutely EVERYWHERE in December, and they represent the majority religion. One of the reasons why Jewish groups have been successful in getting Chanukah menorah displays put up is because Christmas tree displays marginalize anyone who isn't a Christian. And to people who insist that a Christmas tree is a secular symbol, try asking a Jewish person if they agree. Jews don't have Christmas trees. They don't celebrate the religion with which Christmas trees are associated. And yet Jews have to see Christmas trees all over the place for weeks at a time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellye View Post

What should atheists be respected for, exactly?



Free speech. The freedom to not believe. The freedom to not have the majority religion pushed down our throats every December.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellye View Post

I would think the belief that there is no god would be a non-belief.



You are right. And atheists should be respected for their non-belief, and not have our signs stating that non-belief called "hate speech".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellye View Post

But the difference between atheists and non-majority religions is that non-majority religions (like Hinduism and Buddhism in America, for example) don't go around every holiday season deliberately picking fights with the Christians over their decorations.



I just don't get why people make such a big deal out of it. It just gets tiresome year after year.



To you it's picking fights. To atheists it's a response to having to deal with encountering symbols of a religion we don't believe in year in and year out, and wanting to have our say.



Atheists have become more and more publicly vocal about their atheism only in the last few years. It's difficult to be respected in the US where most people are strongly religious. We don't expect favoritism. We expect equal respect.

*this space not for sale*
Amy SF is offline  
#27 Old 12-28-2009, 01:05 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Quote:
For the second year in a row, the Capitol also has an aluminum Festivus pole commemorating the fictional holiday popularized in "Seinfeld."


"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#28 Old 12-28-2009, 01:31 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
For the second year in a row, the Capitol also has an aluminum Festivus pole commemorating the fictional holiday popularized in "Seinfeld."



^ Okay, now THAT is awesome.



Quote:
And yet Jews have to see Christmas trees all over the place for weeks at a time.



So what? I see Christmas trees everywhere during the holiday season, and I don't care. Know why? 'Cause I'm not a Christian. So to me a Christmas tree doesn't equal sign of The Oppressor, it's just a tree with sparklies on it. Hell, Christmas trees don't even have anything to do with Christ, so that makes it even sillier. Why is ANYONE arguing about something so dumb? (And why is it headline-worthy?)



Quote:
Free speech. The freedom to not believe. The freedom to not have the majority religion pushed down our throats every December.



What about my freedom to not have the "atheists versus Christians" controversy shoved down my throat every December?



Quote:
You are right. And atheists should be respected for their non-belief, and not have our signs stating that non-belief called "hate speech".



I guess I don't understand why you feel the need to state a non-belief in the first place. To me it's like going through the mall screaming "THERE IS NO SANTA CLAUS!" to the lines of little kids waiting to sit in his lap. I mean...why? Why is it that big of a deal?



Quote:
You are right. And atheists should be respected for their non-belief, and not have our signs stating that non-belief called "hate speech".



Calling someone else's religion "enslavement" is hateful.



Quote:
To atheists it's a response to having to deal with encountering symbols of a religion we don't believe in year in and year out, and wanting to have our say.



I think it's a pretty childish, "dog in the manger" response.



Quote:
We expect equal respect.



Disrespecting the beliefs of others is not the way to get it.
Kellye is offline  
#29 Old 12-28-2009, 05:01 PM
Veggie Regular
 
peace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,262
Quote:
"At the time of the winter solstice, let reason prevail. There are no gods, no devils, no angels, no heaven or hell. There is only our natural world. Religion is just myth and superstition that hardens hearts and enslaves minds."



Awesome. I'd love to see a sign like that. Maybe I'm just bitter after being subjected to four zillion religious billboards this season (including some that bizarrely combined anti-abortion messages with Christmas ones).

slops, gloops, and gruels.
peace is offline  
#30 Old 12-28-2009, 05:04 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by peace View Post

Awesome. I'd love to see a sign like that. Maybe I'm just bitter after being subjected to four zillion religious billboards this season (including some that bizarrely combined anti-abortion messages with Christmas ones).



^ WTF?



Christians, I love ya, but I'll never fully understand ya.
Kellye is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off