Breeding animals to sell. - Page 5 - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#121 Old 12-16-2009, 11:34 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Bonn1997's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 906
Quote:
Originally Posted by stanie View Post

And you forgot the captive bolt comment of mine, maybe, because you dont see anything wrong with animals being killed for humans?

That's the party I don't get and was confused by when Kellye recommended putting down homeless dogs. Why be a vegetarian if you don't mind animals being killed for humans? Why not buy "free-range meat"? Is it just for nonmoral reasons like health or the environment?
Bonn1997 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#122 Old 12-16-2009, 11:44 AM
mlp
Banned
 
mlp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,995
I think that the current overpopulation of homeless cats and dogs doesn't leave a lot of good alternatives to killing many of them, as humanely as possible. (Especially since some "ethical" veg*ns seem to believe it is unethical to adopt homelsee animals because it "perpetuates the pet industry", and/or that spaying and neutering violates their rights and is therefore unethical. But I digress to hot butto topics of mine.)



The fact is, flocks of sheep could be kept very humanely, their wool could be shorn without causing any harm or distress, and they could live lives to their full term. The fact that it isn't done now, except by some small "hobby" farmers, doesn't mean it could't be done with all sheep.
mlp is offline  
#123 Old 12-16-2009, 11:58 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
And you forgot the captive bolt comment of mine, maybe, because you dont see anything wrong with animals being killed for humans?



I simply forgot to remark on it, though I don't feel compelled to rebuke every single one of your responses at this point. To answer your question, I think the captive bolt (and properly executed slaughter) is one of the least cruel things in the livestock industry, with regards to actual physical suffering. If done correctly, it is quite a quick process.



Quote:
That's the party I don't get and was confused by when Kellye recommended putting down homeless dogs.



Where did I recommend putting down homeless dogs (except maybe hypothetically in the abolitionist companion animal thread)? I do think euthanasia is a lot more humane than starvation on the streets or being ran over by a truck, however. It also helps with pet overpopulation to destroy an active breeder.



I have participated in helping euthanize dozens of animals, I am not saddened so much by the act itself as I am by what it represents.



Quote:
Why be a vegetarian if you don't mind animals being killed for humans? Why not buy "free-range meat"? Is it just for nonmoral reasons like health or the environment?



I am not persistent enough to pursue humanely raised meat that is raised to my ethical standards - basically, in order for me to ensure that a food animal was raised to my standards of humane treatment, I'd have to raise it myself. Then I'd run into the conundrum of being emotionally attached to said livestock and being unable to slaughter it (or order it slaughtered). I doubt very highly I would have the nerve to kill something I'd raised from a calf, or whatever - it would smack of infanticide to me, and I would feel like I was violating the animal's trust.



Therefore, I've taken the route of least resistance and choose to not eat them at all. If I ever have cattle, they will be farm rescues (pets for life).
Kellye is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#124 Old 12-16-2009, 12:15 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Teresa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,222
I have never bought a pet and never will. I must admit to loving my friends Chihuahua/mini Dachshund mix she paid $100.00 for out of the paper. Sadly the pups were in a garage. Not very loved. Obviously just bred for the money. They had not sold fast enough so they reduced the price. At least little Zoe has a good home.



I work with a nursing assistant who sometimes brings her stupid mini poodle to work. She paid about $500.00 for the little abomination according to her. I don't think the damn dog has ever seen a vet and certainly is not fixed. I don't get it. Should I ever get a dog, it will be a rescue. All my cats have been strays or a free kitten. But once they are mine they are cared for.
Teresa is offline  
#125 Old 12-16-2009, 12:20 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
I work with a nursing assistant who sometimes brings her stupid mini poodle to work. She paid about $500.00 for the little abomination according to her.



Why do you consider the dog stupid, and an abomination? It couldn't help the circumstances of its birth, and I'm sure its owner doesn't love it any less for them...
Kellye is offline  
#126 Old 12-16-2009, 12:22 PM
Kiz
Veggie Regular
 
Kiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,132
Well, you gotta admit, some dogs are really stupid, just like some humans are stupid. Toy poodles often are, standard poodles are smart, but they seem to have bred all the brain out of the toy variety, which is another strike against breeding (cue people coming up with exceptions to the brainless toy poodle rule). An "abomination" seems a bit of a horrible thing to call any living creature outside kiddy fiddlers.

Love the post? Why not buy the T-shirt!
http://www.kiz-shop.de/index.php?page=categorie&cat=8
http://www.kiz-shop.de/index.php?page=product&info=94
Kiz is offline  
#127 Old 12-16-2009, 12:23 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,160
I don't know the right word for it but I feel a bit... kind of repulsed I guess... by certain breeds of dog. Like breeds whose skulls are so small the brain literally cannot fit inside and gets squashed and pressed causing seizures and other problems. Or dogs with ridiculous amounts of fur that can hardly see, or dogs with stupidly small legs who can't walk properly, or dogs with snouts so short they can't breathe. I don't blame the dog, but I feel intense hatred for the people who bred them to be that way.
Earthling is offline  
#128 Old 12-16-2009, 12:27 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
Well, you gotta admit, some dogs are really stupid, just like some humans are stupid.



True, but I got the impression that Teresa thinks the dog's owner is stupid, not the dog.



Quote:
Toy poodles often are, standard poodles are smart, but they seem to have bred all the brain out of the toy variety, which is another strike against breeding (cue people coming up with exceptions to the brainless toy poodle rule).



Eh, I think this might be a generalization. My dog is a Yorkshire terrier (toy breed) and he is ridiculously smart. I'm a little biased, but I think most people would consider a dog that understands commands in three languages to be intelligent. I consider the cat more intelligent though, 'cause she just doesn't do commands.



Quote:
An "abomination" seems a bit of a horrible thing to call any living creature outside kiddy fiddlers.



I thought it was a bit harsh.



Quote:
I don't know the right word for it but I feel a bit... kind of repulsed I guess... by certain breeds of dog.



I tend to agree with you, I am a fan of "wolf-shaped" dogs myself. It's pretty repulsive (at least to me) to keep a pet that looks like its face was kicked in, no matter how sweet it is.



My friend at university had a "Peekapoo" and that was the ugliest mutt I've ever seen in my LIFE.
Kellye is offline  
#129 Old 12-16-2009, 12:29 PM
Veggie Regular
 
stanie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellye View Post


I am not persistent enough to pursue humanely raised meat that is raised to my ethical standards - basically, in order for me to ensure that a food animal was raised to my standards of humane treatment, I'd have to raise it myself.



You often claim these organic nice happy farms are fine, so why now the change of heart? Why are they now not good enough for you?
stanie is offline  
#130 Old 12-16-2009, 12:32 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
You often claim these organic nice happy farms are fine, so why now the change of heart? Why are they now not good enough for you?



Because my personal standards for ethical treatment are higher than your average omni - I am sure that 99% of organic, cruelty-free, local, small-scale farms are up to my standards, but without extensive and exhausting research that I'm not willing to put in, I can't be certain. For me it's easier to just give up meat entirely. For those who are unwilling to give up meat, I believe cruelty-free is the next best thing and I encourage them to pursue it if they will not experiment with vegetarianism or veganism.
Kellye is offline  
#131 Old 12-16-2009, 12:32 PM
Kiz
Veggie Regular
 
Kiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,132
I wasn't talking about all toy breeds, terriers as a whole seem quite smart, but I've met a lot of brainless toy poodles. There are exceptions both ways in all breeds, though, but it does seem that some breeds, as a whole, are smarter than others.



"Maltypoos" strike me as ugly, snappy, dumb little things, too. This fad of cross breeding to produce mongrels, call them by fancy names and charge the earth for them is irritating, too.

Love the post? Why not buy the T-shirt!
http://www.kiz-shop.de/index.php?page=categorie&cat=8
http://www.kiz-shop.de/index.php?page=product&info=94
Kiz is offline  
#132 Old 12-16-2009, 12:35 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

I wasn't talking about all toy breeds, terriers as a whole seem quite smart, but I've met a lot of brainless toy poodles. There are exceptions both ways in all breeds, though, but it does seem that some breeds, as a whole, are smarter than others.



"Maltypoos" strike me as ugly, snappy, dumb little things, too. This fad of cross breeding to produce mongrels, call them by fancy names and charge the earth for them is irritating, too.



This drives me nuts. To the owners of those dogs, I say: Your dog is a mongrel. A straight up, typically foul-tempered, pug-nosed, sickly mongrel. Don't try to tell me it's a Cookapeke or a ****sapoo or whatever else cutesy name you want to call it by. It's a mutt, an ugly and expensive one, and there are at least fifteen better-looking and more physically sound mutts at your local animal shelter.



*hops down off the soapbox*
Kellye is offline  
#133 Old 12-16-2009, 12:36 PM
Veggie Regular
 
stanie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellye View Post

Because my personal standards for ethical treatment are higher than your average omni - I am sure that 99% of organic, cruelty-free, local, small-scale farms are up to my standards, but without extensive and exhausting research that I'm not willing to put in, I can't be certain. For me it's easier to just give up meat entirely. For those who are unwilling to give up meat, I believe cruelty-free is the next best thing and I encourage them to pursue it if they will not experiment with vegetarianism or veganism.



Good, so now maybe youll stop with the "happy farms are good" bs.
stanie is offline  
#134 Old 12-16-2009, 12:37 PM
Veggie Regular
 
stanie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellye View Post

This drives me nuts. To the owners of those dogs, I say: Your dog is a mongrel. A straight up, typically foul-tempered, pug-nosed, sickly mongrel. Don't try to tell me it's a Cookapeke or a ****sapoo or whatever else cutesy name you want to call it by. It's a mutt, an ugly and expensive one, and there are at least fifteen better-looking and more physically sound mutts at your local animal shelter.



*hops down off the soapbox*



I assume you werent generalising at all.......
stanie is offline  
#135 Old 12-16-2009, 12:37 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
Good, so now maybe youll stop with the "happy farms are good" bs.



Does this quote sound like I am going to stop endorsing humane farm practices?



Quote:
For me it's easier to just give up meat entirely. For those who are unwilling to give up meat, I believe cruelty-free is the next best thing and I encourage them to pursue it if they will not experiment with vegetarianism or veganism.



Quote:
I assume you werent generalising at all.......



I was totally generalizing. I've met small breed hybrids that were not dumb or physically unsound.



(They were all ugly though )
Kellye is offline  
#136 Old 12-16-2009, 12:39 PM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlp View Post

I think that the current overpopulation of homeless cats and dogs doesn't leave a lot of good alternatives to killing many of them, as humanely as possible. (Especially since some "ethical" veg*ns seem to believe it is unethical to adopt homelsee animals because it "perpetuates the pet industry", and/or that spaying and neutering violates their rights and is therefore unethical. But I digress to hot butto topics of mine.)



I have only met a handful of vegans with that viewpoint so I'm quite sure they are such a tiny minority amongst a tiny minority (vegans) that it wouldn't have much effect on the homeless animal population! I think the problem lies with breeders and the selfish idiots that want designer pets and will pay a lot of money for them. Also the people that leave their pets without spaying or neutering.
GhostUser is offline  
#137 Old 12-16-2009, 12:43 PM
Veggie Regular
 
stanie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,282
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellye View Post

Does this quote sound like I am going to stop endorsing humane farm practices?













You inconsistencies would be laughable if it wasnt for the suffering animals.
stanie is offline  
#138 Old 12-16-2009, 12:46 PM
Kiz
Veggie Regular
 
Kiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,132
Oh, good grief. At "Maltpoo FurBabies" you can "adopt" a puppy for only $3000, with a non-refundable deposit of $500.

Love the post? Why not buy the T-shirt!
http://www.kiz-shop.de/index.php?page=categorie&cat=8
http://www.kiz-shop.de/index.php?page=product&info=94
Kiz is offline  
#139 Old 12-16-2009, 12:47 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
You inconsistencies would be laughable if it wasnt for the suffering animals.



As I've said countless times, I'm not here to "make a case" for you, so go ahead and laugh if you like.



Quote:
Oh, good grief. At "Maltpoo FurBabies" you can "adopt" a puppy for only $3000, with a non-refundable deposit of $500.



From an entirely practical standpoint, I don't know why anyone would pay three grand for a dog when they could literally get one for free.
Kellye is offline  
#140 Old 12-16-2009, 12:49 PM
Kiz
Veggie Regular
 
Kiz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 12,132
Oh, and you can pay via PayPal, and get the puppies "shipped" to anywhere in the US or Canada. Are they talking puppies here or ebay goods?

Love the post? Why not buy the T-shirt!
http://www.kiz-shop.de/index.php?page=categorie&cat=8
http://www.kiz-shop.de/index.php?page=product&info=94
Kiz is offline  
#141 Old 12-16-2009, 12:51 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

Oh, and you can pay via PayPal, and get the puppies "shipped" to anywhere in the US or Canada. Are they talking puppies here or ebay goods?



Well, we are discussing "chattel" here...



It's ridiculous.
Kellye is offline  
#142 Old 12-16-2009, 12:57 PM
mlp
Banned
 
mlp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

This fad of cross breeding to produce mongrels, call them by fancy names and charge the earth for them is irritating, too.



Yes. It's another one of my hot button issues.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Toast View Post

I have only met a handful of vegans with that viewpoint so I'm quite sure they are such a tiny minority amongst a tiny minority (vegans) that it wouldn't have much effect on the homeless animal population! I think the problem lies with breeders and the selfish idiots that want designer pets and will pay a lot of money for them. Also the people that leave their pets without spaying or neutering.



I'm sure it's only a handful, yet I've had arguments on here on both topics within the past week. If these ideological "purists" posting their arguments on here result in just one homeless animal not being adopted, or tilts the balance toward someone not neutering/spaying just one animal, it's one too many for me. There are few things I despise more than maintaining ideological purity at the expense of someone else's suffering. To me, it's even worse than casual or intentional cruelty, because the person is patting himself on the back the whole time, conviced of his moral superiority.
mlp is offline  
#143 Old 12-16-2009, 01:06 PM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlp View Post

I'm sure it's only a handful, yet I've had arguments on here on both topics within the past week. If these ideological "purists" posting their arguments on here result in just one homeless animal not being adopted, or tilts the balance toward someone not neutering/spaying just one animal, it's one too many for me. There are few things I despise more than maintaining ideological purity at the expense of someone else's suffering. To me, it's even worse than casual or intentional cruelty, because the person is patting himself on the back the whole time, conviced of his moral superiority.



I keep my contempt for other groups of people, definitely not fellow vegans even if they have different opinions to mine. I think people put more emphasis on the cute and cuddly homeless animals anyway. How many veg*ns have adopted a pig or a cow for example even though these animals are in a much worse position in society than pets? I would say that my own stance on pets is questionable and open to criticism anyway.
GhostUser is offline  
#144 Old 12-16-2009, 01:27 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Kellye's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,814
Quote:
How many veg*ns have adopted a pig or a cow for example even though these animals are in a much worse position in society than pets?



I'd actually prefer to adopt a cow than a dog or a cat.



Quote:
I would say that my own stance on pets is questionable and open to criticism anyway.



^ Exactly. I am not the end-all, be-all opinion on animal ownership, I just have a very personal opinion based on an individual set of experiences and inconsistencies, just like anyone else.
Kellye is offline  
#145 Old 12-16-2009, 03:36 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Katoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kellye View Post

I'm surrounded by free range cattle in my area and have never actually seen a feed lot. The cattle are kept in pretty good condition as far as I can tell.



I once lived in a rented cottage on a Hereford cattle farm. These steer were pretty much free range and the farm family that tended them had been doing it for generations. In fact, there were 3 generations in 3 different houses living on this farm, and they were all working with the cattle. It was fascinating to watch.



Well, periodically, they would load up the cattle at two-years old, into huge trucks and off they would go to auction. I asked Arnie, the greatgrandpa who loved to talk about his cattle, what happened at auction.



They are sold in groups to feed lots. As are most cattle. Feed lots usually are NOT from birth to slaughter. They don't actually have breeding cows on feedlots.



Kellye, I didn't know this either, when I looked out of fields of cattle grazing. I had no idea.
Katoo is offline  
#146 Old 12-17-2009, 12:05 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Teresa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,222
I'm not commenting on this woman's intelligence. But it's not smart to pay $500.00 for a dog and then never take it to the vet. And I do know this to be true. Also illegal as dogs are supposed to be vaccinated for rabies. And this girl complains about her money and living situation. I didn't say she was stupid but her choice is.



Anyway I don't want to get into an argument so I won't return to this thread.
Teresa is offline  
#147 Old 12-17-2009, 02:23 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Fromper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 7,014
I gave up reading this whole thread - too long. But I got as far as multi-quoting these posts.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Toast View Post

I think keeping any pet is appealing to a human's ego whether bred for that purpose or not. They are there in their home for the human's pleasure. I fully admit that I only have cats because I love them.

.



Quote:
Originally Posted by mlp View Post

Not entirely. I have more than I ever wanted - many more - because I just have a hard time turning my back on an animal in need. My sister is the same way, as is most everyone I know who works in rescue/fosters. Actually, I think it generally has less to do with ego than having children does.



Agreed. Since I was old enough to know better, I've never bought an animal, nor adopted one from a shelter. I haven't personally kept most of the animals I've rescued, but in my adult life, I've helped two dogs, two adult cats, and a litter of kittens with one of the adults to find homes, when I found them wandering outside. The only stray I've personally kept is my bunny, and he's vegan naturally, so no animal suffering comes from that.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Poppy View Post


A 100% neutering plan would eventually solve all the issues: the homeless animals, the abusive pet mills, the feral cat colonies and the demand for pet food. It would take at least a full generation, but it would work. Is is feasible - over time? Gosh I hope so.



Exactly. Ban breeders, spay/neuter all the pets, and in 20 years, the problem's solved. It'll just never happen in our lifetime, because AR activists who would go along with this are a small minority of the overall human population.



--Fromper

Fromper is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off