Breeding animals to sell. - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 12-11-2009, 03:16 PM
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Agreed with all of that. "I'm moving to a small apartment", "I am having a baby", they don't cut it for me. I've vetted every single place I've ever lived at before I move to make sure they can take animals. You can have babies, dogs and cats, my parents proved that for me. As to "I can't afford a dog anymore" I am very iffy about it. What have they given up first... eating out? Cigarettes? Cable TV? Internet? New clothes (instead of thrift shop)? I'm not saying it never happens, just never personally seen it happen where the person cannot make other sacrifices first.



That's because those people suck and find their animals expendable. I can't imagine how the animal must feel to be given up like that. It's ridiculous that lots of people can't rough it just a little more to keep their pet. Selfishness.

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#32 Old 12-11-2009, 03:17 PM
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How are they any more endangered than they would be if they were breeding seasonally in the wild?

That's irrelevant - this is about whether HUMANS have the right to make them breed for their own pleasure and profit.



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Do most of the people you know mistreat their pets? Because none of the people I know do, and none of them own rescue animals. They were all purchased. I think it's a fallacy to assume most animals acquired from a breeder will be poorly treated to begin with and even more poorly treated with a new owner. Maybe I just don't travel in dog-kicking circles, but I don't think animal abuse is a direct result of breeding. It's the result of ignorance.



Nearly all human-animal relationships involve poor welfare to some extent and in some shape or form. Look at the welfare problems of pure bred dogs, who were selectively bred for aesthetic reasons and have a myriad of physical problems because of that. No matter how well meaning the owner, those animals suffer just because they have been bred. It often needs no external influence for their welfare to suffer greatly.
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#33 Old 12-11-2009, 03:18 PM
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You can have babies, dogs and cats, my parents proved that for me.



I find the "I'm having a baby, time to get rid of the dogs and cats!" argument absolutely preposterous.
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#34 Old 12-11-2009, 03:23 PM
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That's irrelevant - this is about whether HUMANS have the right to make them breed for their own pleasure and profit.



Outside of artificial insemination, how exactly does one force animals to breed?



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Nearly all human-animal relationships involve poor welfare to some extent and in some shape or form.



By this logic, AW/AR peeps keeping animals at any time should be contrary to the position, if no matter what precautions one takes, keeping them always involves undermining their welfare.



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Look at the welfare problems of purebred dogs, who were selectively bred for aesthetic reasons and have a myriad of physical problems because of that. No matter how well meaning the owner, those animals suffer just because they have been bred. It often needs no external influence for their welfare to suffer greatly.



Responsible breeders breed out genetic defects.
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#35 Old 12-11-2009, 03:25 PM
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Outside of artificial insemination, how exactly does one force animals to breed?



When we choose their partner, put them in a situation where they breed, then control the entire process and pregnancy... how is that voluntary on their part?



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By this logic, AW/AR peeps keeping animals at any time should be contrary to the position.

No, breeding them and creating more animals is contrary to the position. Giving the best care possible to the ones who already exist is consistent with it.



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Responsible breeders breed out genetic defects.



Lol. Look into the Kennel Club. Don't read the propaganda, look at what is happening in the pedigree dog world. Very few breeders can be described as responsible.
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#36 Old 12-11-2009, 03:28 PM
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When we choose their partner, put them in a situation where they breed, then control the entire process and pregnancy... how is that voluntary on their part?



As far as I can tell, animals are not very picky about their partners. And as far as controlling the birthing process, I don't know any aspect of that control that isn't in the direct interests of protecting the welfare of the animal.



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Lol. Look into the Kennel Club. Don't read the propaganda, look at what is happening in the pedigree dog world. Very few breeders can be described as responsible.



^ This I have no argument with, but I am no supporter of the AKC. I don't consider your average breeder consistent with the title "responsible breeder" though. Doesn't mean they don't exist (animal rights/welfare aside). Within the standards of that subculture, there are people who are very serious with regards to the well-being of their animals. Painting them all with the black brush because too many people let their dogs breed in the backyard to let their kids see "what it's like in nature" is not right to me. I still think the pet overpopulation problem stems from irresponsible pet ownership. Irresponsible breeders are just icing on the cake.



I never had animals come into the shelter from breeders - any litters were usually the result of unspayed pets, not an overabundance of breeding stock.
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#37 Old 12-11-2009, 04:37 PM
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Can we leave the snarky comments out of it please? You know that you can also report things to the mods rather than bringing the drama llamas out?





That's what message board people breed.. drama llamas.
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#38 Old 12-11-2009, 04:41 PM
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I never had animals come into the shelter from breeders - any litters were usually the result of unspayed pets, not an overabundance of breeding stock.



Yes, but... Don't something like 50% of animals get turned in by their owners? And how many of them went out and got a pet that was bred, thereby increasing the breeding demands without actually being a good pet owner? It's got to be a significant amount.



I wonder what breeders would do if every single animal they bred had to be returned to THEM, no matter when it was in the animal's life, rather than taken to a shelter...
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#39 Old 12-11-2009, 04:43 PM
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Yes, but... Don't something like 50% of animals get turned in by their owners? And how many of them went out and got a pet that was bred, thereby increasing the breeding demands without actually being a good pet owner? It's got to be a significant amount.



I wonder what breeders would do if every single animal they bred had to be returned to THEM, no matter when it was in the animal's life, rather than taken to a shelter...



A lot of breeders require it. They put it in the contract.
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#40 Old 12-11-2009, 04:43 PM
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That's what message board people breed.. drama llamas.



That's sad. I'd rather adopt a drama llama over breeding one.

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#41 Old 12-11-2009, 04:49 PM
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A lot of breeders require it. They put it in the contract.



When we say "a lot" what's that based on? I mean... How many people are the "good" kind of breeder who requires that, and how many aren't?



Up where I live, I've seen a couple people get animals from breeders that require that.



When I worked in Tennessee, I was on a ranch with 22 dogs, which covered over ten breeds. Not a single breeder gave a crap where those dogs were taken after they were purchased.



If I were the type of person who got an animal from a breeder, I would do a lot of research and find a "good" one, I bet. And they would require it, I bet. And not a single portion of that would make them representative of ALL people who breed animals, you know?
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#42 Old 12-11-2009, 04:54 PM
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This debate happened in the snakkkkkke thread, but the defenders of breeding animals as pets ran to the mods, because its not something they want to deal with, so, its had to come here. How do you justify an animal being bred solely for the purpose of a humans ego?



I think keeping any pet is appealing to a human's ego whether bred for that purpose or not. They are there in their home for the human's pleasure. I fully admit that I only have cats because I love them.



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well i always tell people when they talk to me about ox, that he is rescued, and i always (if i can) show them that he has scars from cigarette burns on his head in the hope that people will understand why its very important, if you truly care, to take in rescued animals.



Awful! Poor boy.
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#43 Old 12-11-2009, 06:40 PM
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It happens, though. My cat Melly had severe behavioral issues when I got her. She'd been abused, rescued, but the people who rescued her could not keep her/cope, so she was given to a loving schizophrenic lady who adored cats but had little experience. Cat who was nuts from mental/physical abuse + nutty lady from mental illness = cat with severe behavioral issues. She was just nutty, and ended up at the shelter where I was working. I'm sure being in a couple of different homes contributed to her lack of confidence, and not just the abuse. In cases like Melly, though, there is no way she would have gone straight to the public, though. She was tagged special needs and went to a shelter worker with experience (me, thankfully ) and not someone looking for a cute kitty for their kid.



There can be problems with adopting "second hand" animals, yes, but it should not be hit and miss. All adopters should be carefully vetted to match cat to home.



Ha. I guess that highlights the fact that my expectations may be quite different from the norm. I don't view extreme skittishness in a cat during an adjustment period as a behavioral problem - it's just a cat being a cat. I never push cats in this regard; they adjust much better and more quickly, in the long run, if given the time and space to come to terms with change at their own individual rate. For example, when my SO adopted the Orange Meanies, Tao didn't come out from under the couch for a month or more, even though Zen, his brother, was a cuddler from day one. I just put a litterbox, food and water next to the couch and insisted that Tao be left alone. (My SO kept wanting to pull him out.) Now Tao is one of the most self assured cats in the house, and quite a troublemaker.
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#44 Old 12-11-2009, 06:44 PM
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I think keeping any pet is appealing to a human's ego whether bred for that purpose or not. They are there in their home for the human's pleasure. I fully admit that I only have cats because I love them.



Not entirely. I have more than I ever wanted - many more - because I just have a hard time turning my back on an animal in need. My sister is the same way, as is most everyone I know who works in rescue/fosters. Actually, I think it generally has less to do with ego than having children does.
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#45 Old 12-11-2009, 08:14 PM
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Ha. I guess that highlights the fact that my expectations may be quite different from the norm. I don't view extreme skittishness in a cat during an adjustment period as a behavioral problem - it's just a cat being a cat. I never push cats in this regard; they adjust much better and more quickly, in the long run, if given the time and space to come to terms with change at their own individual rate. For example, when my SO adopted the Orange Meanies, Tao didn't come out from under the couch for a month or more, even though Zen, his brother, was a cuddler from day one. I just put a litterbox, food and water next to the couch and insisted that Tao be left alone. (My SO kept wanting to pull him out.) Now Tao is one of the most self assured cats in the house, and quite a troublemaker.

Well, no, it was not "extreme skittishness", that is par for the course with a lot of cats. She'd actively attack visitors, the way a mean guard dog does, with very little warning. It wasn't play, either, she'd run at them as they came in the door and bite hard and deep enough to leave holes and blood. She'd attack with very little warning, too, if she thought they'd stayed too long. She'd also "self-harm", biting her own back legs very hard when frustrated. If she was angry and frustrated and couldn't bite a person she'd just bite herself, hard. 95% of the time she was OK, it's just her anger and frustration when afraid or nervous were over the top. She just didn't seem to have that bite control most cats do when rough playing. The bugger would go for it for all she was worth! She's a real old sweetie, now, and a hit with all the neighbours. She even comes out willingly to sit and talk with visitors when they come for tea.

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#46 Old 12-11-2009, 08:32 PM
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Well, no, it was not "extreme skittishness", that is par for the course with a lot of cats. She'd actively attack visitors, the way a mean guard dog does, with very little warning. It wasn't play, either, she'd run at them as they came in the door and bite hard and deep enough to leave holes and blood. She'd attack with very little warning, too, if she thought they'd stayed too long. She'd also "self-harm", biting her own back legs very hard when frustrated. If she was angry and frustrated and couldn't bite a person she'd just bite herself, hard. 95% of the time she was OK, it's just her anger and frustration when afraid or nervous were over the top. She just didn't seem to have that bite control most cats do when rough playing. The bugger would go for it for all she was worth! She's a real old sweetie, now, and a hit with all the neighbours. She even comes out willingly to sit and talk with visitors when they come for tea.



Ah. I've never encountered that with any of mine, although I can easily see it happening; a couple of mine will suddenly turn around and bite hard when they've been petted for a while - over stimulation - if pleasure can have that effect, it's easy to see how fear and anxiety could lead to a ramped up aggressiveness. How long did it take for her to feel secure enough so that she stopped doing that?
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#47 Old 12-11-2009, 08:42 PM
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Ah. I've never encountered that with any of mine, although I can easily see it happening; a couple of mine will suddenly turn around and bite hard when they've been petted for a while - over stimulation - if pleasure can have that effect, it's easy to see how fear and anxiety could lead to a ramped up aggressiveness. How long did it take for her to feel secure enough so that she stopped doing that?

Well, apparently the first lot of people would leave her locked out on a balcony with no food or water, then hit, punch or slap her until she attacked, whereupon she'd get food. This was reported to the RSPCA but with no evidence (the cat was well fed looking, undamaged, no video of what was happening - besides, they were not hitting her hard enough to damage so it's not a priority case) they did nothing about it, so the neighbours just climbed up to the 2nd story balcony and stole her. She got better gradually over time. Maybe 6 months or so before she stopped biting herself and outright attacking visitors on sight? I gave her chew toys and she'd kill them quite vigorously for a long time, instead of attacking me or herself. Quite a few years down the track before she went good altogether, quite a few years, but by that time she was only going nutso every few months.



The funniest incident was when she sprang up on my back and tried to bite me on the nape of the neck, I swear she was trying to do the death bite!

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#48 Old 12-11-2009, 08:47 PM
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The funniest incident was when she sprang up on my back and tried to bite me on the nape of the neck, I swear she was trying to do the death bite!



I can just picture that.



Good for the neighbors, stealing her! And good for you. Give Melly my love.
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#49 Old 12-11-2009, 09:10 PM
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She'd attack with very little warning, too, if she thought they'd stayed too long.

Hmm, I'm thinking that's not such a bad trait, especially around the holidays when we have so many family members dropping by. Too bad you couldn't harness that one trait.



Seriously, though, it's great that you've been able to have so much success with Melly. I have been amazed at some of the transformations I've seen in rescues when they get into a stable and safe environment. I find it very rewarding to help provide them a better life - probably just a good ego stroke.
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#50 Old 12-11-2009, 10:48 PM
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Not entirely. I have more than I ever wanted - many more - because I just have a hard time turning my back on an animal in need. My sister is the same way, as is most everyone I know who works in rescue/fosters. Actually, I think it generally has less to do with ego than having children does.



Exactly. I always seem to have more dogs at any one time than I planned for. I can't turn my back on the misfits no one else wants, though my life was much simpler when I only had three.
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#51 Old 12-12-2009, 09:19 AM
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Arguments in favor of breeding more animals:



-properties and taxonomic categories have rights

-human needs

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#52 Old 12-12-2009, 01:20 PM
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I never had animals come into the shelter from breeders - any litters were usually the result of unspayed pets, not an overabundance of breeding stock.



We estimate that somewhere between 30 and 50% of the dogs we rescue from the pound are purebred. If they are purebred, they have to have come from a breeder, as dogs on the loose rarely choose mates of their own breed. AmySF just posted an article about how 1/3 of the dogs in California shelters are now Chihuahuas, thanks to Beverly Hills Chihuahua - they had to have been bred to have met the perceived demand for purse dogs. We just adopted out a Chinese Crested, for heavens sake - very posh, very expensive.



In this morning's Richmond Times Dispatch, there are 11 ads for Yorkie puppies.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#53 Old 12-12-2009, 03:00 PM
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I still think that if AR individuals were seriously concerned with the long-term cessation of animal breeding they would simply not own animals, rescued or not. They are just as guilty for perpetuating the parasitic human-pet relationship as breeders or any other pet owner is. I think if an individual really thinks the keeping of domesticated animals is wrong, they shouldn't own them. Period. It all depends on whether your goals are to save individual animals in the short-term, or liberate species in the long-term. These two goals are inconsistent to me.

It's the least bad option. You have presented no alternative that is *less* inconsistent with an animal rights perspective than adopting and saving homeless pets. Adopting a rescue animal *could* be consistent or inconsistent with an animal rights advocate's beliefs depending on the moral philosophy underlying those beliefs. Two of my most basic moral principles are that



A) every individual sentient being has a right to life, liberty, and property. You can violate rights to liberty or property only when preserving life.

B) humans have an obligation to cause as little harm and suffering as possible and prevent as much harm and suffering as possible.



Any moral philosophy requires foundational assumptions. I believe the two above are reasonable (because a society cannot function effectively IMO without them) but would gladly replace them with ones demonstrated to be more reasonable. You can in principle argue that there are options other than adopting rescue animals that are more consistent with the foundation of my beliefs above but the burden is on you to demonstrate (not merely state) this. If you do so, then it means that my philosophical beliefs or my behaviors or both need modification.
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#54 Old 12-13-2009, 02:20 PM
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Arguments in favor of breeding more animals:



-properties and taxonomic categories have rights

-human needs



Those are indeed arguments in favor of breeding but I don't think they're strong ones. It seems strange to grant a taxonomic category rights--usually rights are applied to individual *living* creatures not to taxonomic categories. A taxonomic category is more of a theoretical or conceptual construct. Nevertheless, I do not think any species that humans breed would become extinct if humans stopped breeding it. I'm not knowledgeable about all such species but I know that only a very small percentage of the living dogs in the world are pets--most either exist in the wild or are village dogs.



I would use the phrase human "desires" rather than human "needs" for the latter of your two statements.
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#55 Old 12-13-2009, 02:21 PM
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I'm not knowledgeable about all such species but I know that only a very small percentage of the living dogs in the world are pets--most either exist in the wild or are village dogs.



Huh? Do you have any stats to back that up, because I would bet the opposite is true.
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#56 Old 12-13-2009, 03:38 PM
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Huh? Do you have any stats to back that up, because I would bet the opposite is true.



I don't have the exact stats with me but the Coppingers discuss this in detail in their book on dogs (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Dog.../9780226115634). I don't have the copy of the book with me at the moment.
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#57 Old 12-13-2009, 04:43 PM
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I don't have the exact stats with me but the Coppingers discuss this in detail in their book on dogs (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Dog.../9780226115634). I don't have the copy of the book with me at the moment.



I suspect that such a statement could only be made if "wild dog" species like dingos and others are included in the statistics.
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#58 Old 12-14-2009, 02:37 AM
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Those are indeed arguments in favor of breeding but I don't think they're strong ones. It seems strange to grant a taxonomic category rights--usually rights are applied to individual *living* creatures not to taxonomic categories. [...]



I would use the phrase human "desires" rather than human "needs" for the latter of your two statements.

I agree on both points. I was being facetious, in a sense, trying to highlight why I think it's absurd to continue breeding a species because you care about that species as such, beyond the sentient beings who are its members.

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#59 Old 12-14-2009, 03:51 AM
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I suspect that such a statement could only be made if "wild dog" species like dingos and others are included in the statistics.



I believe you are correct. Is there any reason not to count dingos as dogs though?
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#60 Old 12-14-2009, 04:00 AM
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No. Dingos are dogs. I'd love a dingo!

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