We need a "V" mark! - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 10-30-2009, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by rockindancer86 View Post

You know, when I saw the title of this thread, I was thinking, "what? you want to mark virgins with a scarlet V? what's the world coming to?"



LOL!

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#32 Old 10-30-2009, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

There is no legal definition what exactly what 'vegetarian' or 'vegan' is.



I agree. Kashi has a pizza that they mark as "vegetarian", yet has eggs in it.

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#33 Old 10-30-2009, 01:39 PM
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I agree. Kashi has a pizza that they mark as "vegetarian", yet has eggs in it.




and what's the problem with that?

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#34 Old 10-30-2009, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunestrider View Post

I agree. Kashi has a pizza that they mark as "vegetarian", yet has eggs in it.




Vegetarian nearly always means lacto-ovo vegetarian, and you'd be silly to assume otherwise. The only non omnivorous diets most food companies recognise are l/o vegetarian and vegan.
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#35 Old 10-30-2009, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunestrider View Post

I agree. Kashi has a pizza that they mark as "vegetarian", yet has eggs in it.




Food with eggs in it isn't vegan but it is vegetarian.

"If we could live happy and healthy lives without harming others... why wouldn't we?" - Edgars Mission
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#36 Old 10-30-2009, 02:08 PM
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and what's the problem with that?



Uh, because eggs aren't plants?



Otherwise, the meaning of "lacto-vegetarian", "ovo-vegetarian", "lacto-ovo-vegetarian" and "vegetarian" become blurred.
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#37 Old 10-30-2009, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunestrider View Post

Uh, because eggs aren't plants?



Otherwise, the meaning of "lacto-vegetarian", "ovo-vegetarian", "lacto-ovo-vegetarian" and "vegetarian" become blurred.



They are already blurred. "Vegetarian" means all of the above.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#38 Old 10-30-2009, 02:12 PM
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If an item is labeled vegetarian, there is the assumption that there is either dairy or eggs or both in it. Otherwise it will be labeled VEGAN, with the assumption that there is NO dairy or eggs in it.

*this space not for sale*
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#39 Old 10-30-2009, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunestrider View Post

Uh, because eggs aren't plants?



Otherwise, the meaning of "lacto-vegetarian", "ovo-vegetarian", "lacto-ovo-vegetarian" and "vegetarian" become blurred.



I think you're confused about the terminology here.



Someone who consumes no animal products at all is a vegan, someone who consumes no meat but still consumes some animal byproducts is a vegetarian whether they eat eggs but not milk or milk but not eggs or any other possible combination of things.

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#40 Old 10-30-2009, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunestrider View Post

Uh, because eggs aren't plants?



Otherwise, the meaning of "lacto-vegetarian", "ovo-vegetarian", "lacto-ovo-vegetarian" and "vegetarian" become blurred.



Vegetarian no longer means "only eats plants". That's why the term vegan was created.
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#41 Old 10-30-2009, 02:28 PM
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'Vegetarian' has two meanings, a specific and a general one: a) lacto-ovo-vegetarian (specific) b) doesn't eat meat (general).



No matter which meaning we pick, vegetarianism is compatible with dairy and eggs.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#42 Old 10-30-2009, 02:29 PM
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Of course, there does exist a third definition too, "homosexual hippie commie *******", but that is less prevalent so we can ignore it in this context.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#43 Old 10-30-2009, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

'Vegetarian' has two meanings, a specific and a general one: a) lacto-ovo-vegetarian (specific) b) doesn't eat meat (general).



No matter which meaning we pick, vegetarianism is compatible with dairy and eggs.



So says you.



If that is true, then the terms "ovo-vegetarian", "lacto-vegetarian" and "ovo-lacto-vegetarian" have no meaning.



But in the end, you made my point. That is why standards (and labeling standards) are important. There is no standard meaning of the word "vegetarian". Every dictionary and encyclopedia has a different definition.



I know people who think vegetarian means you can eat fish. Or poultry. Or both.
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#44 Old 10-30-2009, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunestrider View Post


If that is true, then the terms "ovo-vegetarian", "lacto-vegetarian" and "ovo-lacto-vegetarian" have no meaning.

Both "ovo-vegetarian" and "lacto-vegetarian" have a meaning: they are a) distinct from lacto-ovo-vegetarianism b) more specific than the general heading 'vegetarian'.



'Lacto-ovo-vegetarian' also has some semantic value since it is a less ambiguous way to refer to a vegetarian diet allowing dairy and eggs than the word 'vegetarian' is.

"and I stand

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#45 Old 10-30-2009, 03:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Both "ovo-vegetarian" and "lacto-vegetarian" have a meaning: they are a) distinct from lacto-ovo-vegetarianism b) more specific than the general heading 'vegetarian'.



'Lacto-ovo-vegetarian' also has some semantic value since it is a less ambiguous way to refer to a vegetarian diet allowing dairy and eggs than the word 'vegetarian' is.



It all makes perfect sense to me.

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#46 Old 10-30-2009, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunestrider View Post

So says you.



If that is true, then the terms "ovo-vegetarian", "lacto-vegetarian" and "ovo-lacto-vegetarian" have no meaning.



But in the end, you made my point. That is why standards (and labeling standards) are important. There is no standard meaning of the word "vegetarian". Every dictionary and encyclopedia has a different definition.



I know people who think vegetarian means you can eat fish. Or poultry. Or both.



I think the standard definition of the word vegetarian, at least among actual vegetarians, is that vegetarian = someone who doesn't eat flesh. Simple enough. In my view, lacto-ovo-vegetarian is simply extra explanation, and lacto-veg or ovo-veg serve to point out that the person eats dairy or eggs but not both.



I don't see anything wrong with the word vegetarian including eggs or dairy.
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#47 Old 10-30-2009, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunestrider View Post

So says you.





so says 99.9% of the vegetarian community.

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#48 Old 10-31-2009, 10:07 AM
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so says 99.9% of the vegetarian community.



Where exactly did you get those statistics from?



Or did you just make those statistics up?
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#49 Old 10-31-2009, 10:35 AM
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I see your point, Dunestrider. Yes, the term "vegetarian" can be applied to people with a variety of diets. There are even people who consume no animal products at all, but still refer to themselves as "strict vegetarians" because their choices do not extend into what they wear or what soap they use. Just know that the common, most-accepted usage of the term "vegetarian" is lacto-ovo. If something is labeled as vegetarian-friendly, you're still going to want to check for eggs and dairy if you don't eat those things.
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#50 Old 10-31-2009, 11:37 AM
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The entire essence of my original post is: a simple, established, standardized labeling system wouldn't require one to pore over the ingredients of a food, or contact the manufacturer for more information.



Even the listing of the ingredients is not enough, for those of us who take this matter seriously.



For example, does the product has cheese? If so, does it have animal-based rennet? That fact is rarely listed; you will need to contact the manufacturer.



Observant Jews have established a standard for what is marked as kosher. You will see this mark (a "U" with a circle around it) on many items in a grocery store. I also understand that there are separate marks for what is kosher and what is kosher for Passover.



There are far, far many more vegetarians/lacto-vegetarians/ovo-vegetarians/ovo-lacto-vegetarians in the world than there are observant Jews. So why cannot there be a simple standard for us?



And the vegetarian mark would be easier for the manufacturers than the kosher mark: the vegetarian mark would just certify the ingredients; the kosher mark not only certifies the ingredients, but also that a rabbi blesses the food, and so on.



Am I being unreasonable in asking for a standardized mark?
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#51 Old 10-31-2009, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by rockindancer86 View Post

I don't see anything wrong with the word vegetarian including eggs or dairy.



So maybe this all boils down to people who are vegetarian because of ethics and those who are vegetarian because of health reasons. Right?



For example, there are "regular eggs"; eggs from "vegetarian-fed chickens"; eggs from "cage-free chickens"; eggs from "free range chickens". And so on. Even though this differentiation is just a farce. See: http://www.ethicalvegetarian.com/essays.html#eggs



In my mind, a person who is concerned with the suffering of others should be concerned about the plight of chickens.



But you don't?
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#52 Old 10-31-2009, 12:05 PM
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Dunestrider, under your personal definition of "vegetarian", there is no need for the label "vegab", since it would be duplicative of "vegetarian." Or am I missing something?
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#53 Old 10-31-2009, 12:08 PM
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What in hell is a "vegab"? In all my 55 years, I have never heard of such a term.
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#54 Old 10-31-2009, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunestrider View Post

What in hell is a "vegab"? In all my 55 years, I have never heard of such a term.



Sorry -typo. "Vegan."



ETA: Although we could use "vegab" to describe a vegetarian who is extremely talkative.
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#55 Old 10-31-2009, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunestrider View Post

So maybe this all boils down to people who are vegetarian because of ethics and those who are vegetarian because of health reasons. Right?



For example, there are "regular eggs"; eggs from "vegetarian-fed chickens"; eggs from "cage-free chickens"; eggs from "free range chickens". And so on. Even though this differentiation is just a farce. See: http://www.ethicalvegetarian.com/essays.html#eggs



In my mind, a person who is concerned with the suffering of others should be concerned about the plight of chickens.



But you don't?



That's not really the point. The point is that under the most commonly and widely accepted ideas of what a vegetarian is, eggs and dairy are acceptable to eat. They are not meat. They don't necessitate the killing of an animal.



I don't think this thread is an appropriate place to lecture people on whether eating eggs is ethical.
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#56 Old 10-31-2009, 12:16 PM
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Wow, if the Compost Heap is not the "appropriate place to lecture people on whether eating eggs is ethical", then where?



Please advise.
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#57 Old 10-31-2009, 12:20 PM
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So, Dunestrider, in your personal dictionary, is there a difference between "vegetarian" and "vegan"?
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#58 Old 10-31-2009, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dormouse View Post

{Eating eggs doesn't} necessitate the killing of an animal.



Please explain how you rationalize (rationalize = rational lies) that statement?
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#59 Old 10-31-2009, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunestrider View Post

Please explain how you rationalize (rationalize = rational lies) that statement?



Maybe you could first answer my question? Or are you intentionally avoiding answering it?
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#60 Old 10-31-2009, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Dunestrider View Post

Please explain how you rationalize (rationalize = rational lies) that statement?



At the most basic level, when you eat an egg, you are not eating a dead animal. You do not have to kill an animal to collect the egg. That makes it suitable for vegetarians, which you admit when you say that there is such a thing as an ovo-vegetarian. I understand that the egg industry does kill chickens, but the killing is not necessary for egg production. (Imagine if you had a chicken coup in your backyard, for instance. You would not have to kill any chickens to be able to make omelets).



Anyhow, I didn't realize this thread was in the Compost Heap. Was it moved or has it always been here? I still think you are changing the subject a bit by trying to discuss the ethics of eating eggs, rather than just whether eggs fit into the definition of vegetarian. They are two different arguments. By definition, vegetarians can eat eggs. It's not a question of whether they should but whether they can do so and still be considered vegetarian.



I agree with you that I would absolutely love to see a better labeling system for vegetarian and vegan products. Perhaps this debate shows why it would be difficult--different people have different ideas of what is vegetarian. Any trustworthy system would come from some centralized organization that had set definitions as to what constituted vegetarian and vegan.
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