Dalai Lama is not a vegetarian. Any thoughts? - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 10-18-2009, 09:39 PM
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I think all buddhists who follow buddhism and believe strongly in ahimsa should not eat meat. I know that buddhists aren't bound to be vegetarian, but what part of "do not kill" do you not understand?
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#62 Old 10-18-2009, 10:58 PM
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#63 Old 10-18-2009, 11:46 PM
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The Dalai Lama is the leader of a people that has suffered genocide in the hundreds or thousands if not in the millions. Yet this is not mentioned in this thread, as though the lives of Tibetan humans are less important than veal calves. I think this thread is focusing on a relatively trivial issue. Swallowing the camel while straining at the gnat.



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The Tibet Government-in-Exile and some indigenous Tibetans ... claim ...genocide in Tibet from the Chinese government, comparing it to Nazi Germany.[52] The official doctrine of the PRC classifies Tibetans as one of its 56 recognized ethnic groups and part of the greater Zhonghua Minzu or multi-ethnic Chinese nation. Warren Smith, an independent scholar and a broadcaster with the Tibetan Service of Radio Free Asia[53][54][55], whose work became focused on Tibetan history and politics after spending five months in Tibet in 1982, portrays the Chinese as chauvinists who believe they are superior to the Tibetans, and claims that the Chinese use torture, coercion and starvation to control the Tibetans.[56]



Mao's Great Leap Forward (195962) led to famine in Tibet. "In some places, whole families have perished and the death rate is very high," according to a confidential report by the Panchen Lama sent to Chinese Premier Zhou Enlai in 1962.[57] "In the past Tibet lived in a dark barbaric feudalism but there was never such a shortage of food, especially after Buddhism had spread....In Tibet from 1959 to 1961, for two years almost all animal husbandry and farming stopped. The nomads have no grain to eat and the farmers have no meat, butter or salt," the report said.[57]



The Central Tibetan Administration states that the number that have died of starvation, violence, or other indirect causes since 1950 is approximately 1.2 million,[58] which the Chinese Communist Party denies. The Chinese Communist Party(CCP)'s official toll of deaths recorded for the whole of China for the years of the Great Leap Forward is 14 million, but scholars have estimated the number of the famine victims to be between 20 and 43 million[59]. According to Patrick French, former director of the Free Tibet Campaign, the estimate of 1.2 million in Tibet is not reliable because Tibetans were not able to process the data well enough to produce a credible total. There were, however, many casualties, with a figure of 400,000 extrapolated from a calculation Warren W. Smith, a broadcaster of Radio Free Asia, made from census reports of Tibet which show 200,000 "missing" from Tibet.[60]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tibet#T...ublic_of_China
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#64 Old 10-19-2009, 12:36 AM
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The Dalai Lama is the leader of a people that has suffered genocide in the hundreds or thousands if not in the millions. Yet this is not mentioned in this thread, as though the lives of Tibetan humans are less important than veal calves. I think this thread is focusing on a relatively trivial issue. Swallowing the camel while straining at the gnat.



I find this view and phrasing offensive. 55 BILLION land animals are killed every year for meat, and most of them lived lives of birth to death torture. Not sure why you need to make the comparison, but when you say "as though the lives of Tibetan humans are less important than veal calves" you seem to be saying that the horrific deaths of these animals are less important - in fact you say that the issue of animal death and suffering discussed here is "a relatively trivial issue." In intensity of suffering and numbers, the animals have any group of humans beat. And even the "lowliest" human is free to abuse animals in the food industry. The Dalai Lama treats animals no better than "his people" are treated - he's part of the problem of dominance and abuse of those lower and more helpless than oneself. Hopefully some day he'll get a clue, but doubtful.

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#65 Old 10-19-2009, 12:58 AM
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I think taking what you will (in other words, dropping the bits that are too hard to live up to) is the troublesome part with people practicing Buddhism - or any religion really.



That's a very unfair statement. You take the parts of any doctrine because they resonate with you in your heart, not because they are easy. To embrace the whole of any doctrine is to suppress your true self and is as dangerous as any cult.
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#66 Old 10-19-2009, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by IrieMama View Post

I think all buddhists who follow buddhism and believe strongly in ahimsa should not eat meat. I know that buddhists aren't bound to be vegetarian, but what part of "do not kill" do you not understand?





I fully understand it hence being a vegan. I don't judge others for not understanding, choosing to ignore it or by following different sutras.

It is not a clear cut as people may assume. The bible has several interpretations, several 'bibles'. The different schools of Buddhism follow different sutras and cannons. Theravada and Vajrayana are not necessarily vegetarian and do not follow sutras that proclaim vegetarianism as an ideal or necessary. "As recorded in the Pali scriptures, the Buddha did not prohibit consumption of meat, even by monks." (http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma3/vegi.html). This site gives a good outline of the issues around vegetariansim and Buddhism and the differences between the three strands. It all comes down to interpretation and again who am I to judge another Buddhist for eating meat? That in itself is prohibited.



Also reincarnation has the same deal. Will I be reincarnated as an object or animal? I believe in reincarnation in the sense that my good deeds and my life-example will be sown in my children, family, friends and will live on another generation. Do i think i'll be reincarnated as a goat or a whale? No. But part of me lives on in my good thoughts and actions.
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#67 Old 10-19-2009, 04:37 AM
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Originally Posted by Pixelle View Post

I think taking what you will (in other words, dropping the bits that are too hard to live up to) is the troublesome part with people practicing Buddhism - or any religion really. I haven't met any Buddhist so far who actually shows any respect for the fundamental and compassionate precept of "do not kill" by living up to it. When even the Dalai Lama himself ignores it, I think it highlights just how meaningless it all is.



So blindly following is the only way or nothing at all? There a "BUddhists" and then there are Buddhists just like there are Christians who do not practise what they preach. There are those who proclaim themselves Buddhist and there are those who actually take refuge and the five precepts and try to live compassionately.



I think it is wise to be discerning in all parts of your life including religion or philosophy - this does not make you any less of a believer. With any faith there are cultural attatchments - Chinese horoscopes and legends mean little to me but they are prevalent in my temple. I choose to ignore the peripheral and focus on what I see as meaningful to me. Afterall it is a personal choice.

I'm sure you don't believe everything you read on here does that make you a 'dangerous' or radical veg*n or make veg*nism any less valuable?
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#68 Old 10-19-2009, 04:38 AM
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Also reincarnation has the same deal. Will I be reincarnated as an object or animal? I believe in reincarnation in the sense that my good deeds and my life-example will be sown in my children, family, friends and will live on another generation. Do i think i'll be reincarnated as a goat or a whale? No. But part of me lives on in my good thoughts and actions.



I like that
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#69 Old 10-19-2009, 05:38 AM
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Originally Posted by IrieMama View Post

I think all buddhists who follow buddhism and believe strongly in ahimsa should not eat meat. I know that buddhists aren't bound to be vegetarian, but what part of "do not kill" do you not understand?



sadly, that misunderstanding seems to be common to other religions as well...



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#70 Old 10-19-2009, 05:44 AM
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The Dalai Lama is the leader of a people that has suffered genocide in the hundreds or thousands if not in the millions. Yet this is not mentioned in this thread, as though the lives of Tibetan humans are less important than veal calves. I think this thread is focusing on a relatively trivial issue. Swallowing the camel while straining at the gnat.





utterly utterly ridiculous. In the extreme. Is it ok for the leader of israel to eat meat because jews were victims of genocide last century? We are discussing the subject of someone who represents compassion for the buddhist religion being a meathead. If you are not interested in the discussion being held here, then don't participate. I'm sure there are genocide threads around if you want to talk about that. Or you could even start a new one!
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#71 Old 10-19-2009, 06:55 AM
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I think this thread is focusing on a relatively trivial issue.

Suffering will always be trivial to the callous.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#72 Old 10-19-2009, 07:58 AM
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considering both are proclaimed to be the result of virgin births, we shouldn't take anything anybody says about them seriously. ever.



Buddha wasn't a virgin birth. His mother was Queen Mahamaya. She and her husband Suddhodana Gotama had fertility issues. One night she had a dream about a white elephant and a lotus flower that the palace seers later interpreted as a sign that she would be the mother of an enlightened being. She then gave birth to Siddhartha Gotama, who would later be known as the Buddha, or "enlightened one".



So yeah. Not a virgin birth - Mahamaya wasn't a virgin; she'd been trying to have children for years and was consumated at the outset of her marriage. Buddha's birth wasn't miraculous, it was just a stroke of good luck for the royal family.



Maybe you should learn a bit more about individual religions before criticizing them, Adam.
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#73 Old 10-19-2009, 08:52 AM
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If you put this in to christian terms, not all priests/popes do good things and yet some believe the religion is a good one. We are all human, regardless if status. Thinking otherwise will only bring dissapointment.



I may disagree with his eating habits but I believe that the religion is a lovely one.



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#74 Old 10-19-2009, 08:59 AM
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the religion is a lovely one.



...if you're not a farm animal. Then it's just more of the same. A religion that does nothing for the least powerful isn't really so enlightened, I think.

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#75 Old 10-19-2009, 09:08 AM
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It really depends.



The Dalai Lama isn't the only representative of the Buddhism community, just FYI. There are other sects who encourage people to go veg*n.



I'm just a bit upset about the lack of respect of others' beliefs in this thread because almost 90% of my family in the past 3 generations have been veg*n and it started with Buddhism.



So yeah, religion has the potential to be good or to be bad.

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#76 Old 10-19-2009, 09:16 AM
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...if you're not a farm animal. Then it's just more of the same. A religion that does nothing for the least powerful isn't really so enlightened, I think.



I am not disagreeing with you, I am stating there is good and bad in all religions.

I believe you take from experiences, religions, cultures, etc, what helps you grow as a person, not that every religion and culture you have to agree with 100 percent.

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#77 Old 10-19-2009, 10:38 AM
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this is news to me and highly disturbing
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#78 Old 10-19-2009, 11:15 AM
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It really depends.



The Dalai Lama isn't the only representative of the Buddhism community, just FYI. There are other sects who encourage people to go veg*n.



I'm just a bit upset about the lack of respect of others' beliefs in this thread because almost 90% of my family in the past 3 generations have been veg*n and it started with Buddhism.



So yeah, religion has the potential to be good or to be bad.





in response to the bolded part:



take thich nhat hanh for example:



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Among Buddhist leaders influential in the West, Thich Nhat Hanh ranks second only to the Dalai Lama, the exiled spiritual leader of Tibet. His works can be found in bookstores coast to coast. "The Dalai Lama has millions of admirers," said Helen Tworkov, editor of Tricycle, a magazine devoted to Buddhism in America, "but there are thousands of people in this country who think of Thich Nhat Hanh as their teacher," a significant personal relationship. "He's been a very important figure in the spread of Buddhism," she added. (from http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religio...eln260/TNH.htm )



he advocates a veg*n diet, as well as being veg*n himself (not sure if he's totally vegan, but i know he's at least vegetarian). he's also talked about things such as global warming, etc. here's one piece where he talks about vegetarianism, mindful eating and compassion: http://www.healthyat100.org/display....tid=3&pageid=4
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#79 Old 10-19-2009, 11:30 AM
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I'm just a bit upset about the lack of respect of others' beliefs in this thread because almost 90% of my family in the past 3 generations have been veg*n and it started with Buddhism.



whats disrepectful about pointing out a pretty big inconsistency in the practice of some buddhists ?? its one thing to ask the non religious to respect religious beliefs but must we have to bow down to religion so much that we cant have any criticisms at all ??
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#80 Old 10-19-2009, 11:33 AM
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whats disrepectful about pointing out a pretty big inconsistency in the practice of some buddhists ?? its one thing to ask the non religious to respect religious beliefs but must we have to bow down to religion so much that we cant have any criticisms at all ??



I don't see why religious belief shouldn't be criticised and it doesn't have to be offensive that people ask questions instead of blindly accepting.



I have met a fair few Buddhists that aren't vegetarian and I see that as pretty inconsistent. (I have met vegan Buddhists as well though.)
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#81 Old 10-19-2009, 11:34 AM
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I have met a fair few Buddhists that aren't vegetarian and I see that as pretty inconsistent.



I can honestly say I have not met or seen a single consistent human being in the last 24 years I've been alive. Ever.
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#82 Old 10-19-2009, 11:42 AM
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I can honestly say I have not met or seen a single consistent human being in the last 24 years I've been alive. Ever.



Very true.



I can see why Buddhists would not eat animals though. It makes sense. Buddhism is one of the religions (or philosophy) that I can most identify with personally.
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#83 Old 10-19-2009, 12:32 PM
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I can honestly say I have not met or seen a single consistent human being in the last 24 years I've been alive. Ever.



neither have i, but the idea is to try & not have too many inconsistencies & not have them be so bloody obvious that other people can see them from 50K away
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#84 Old 10-19-2009, 12:42 PM
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"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative."



-Oscar Wilde





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#85 Old 10-19-2009, 12:51 PM
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That's a very unfair statement. You take the parts of any doctrine because they resonate with you in your heart, not because they are easy. To embrace the whole of any doctrine is to suppress your true self and is as dangerous as any cult.



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So blindly following is the only way or nothing at all? There a "BUddhists" and then there are Buddhists just like there are Christians who do not practise what they preach. There are those who proclaim themselves Buddhist and there are those who actually take refuge and the five precepts and try to live compassionately.





I didn't suggest that people should BLINDLY follow or suppress their true selves. But is it too much to ask Buddhists to have the intestinal fortitude to live up to the concept of DO NOT KILL ANY LIVING BEING? If they can't do that, maybe they should re-think being a Buddhist. It's not like the precept of DO NOT KILL ANY LIVING BEING is a side issue in Buddhism, like drinking alcohol is for Muslims - it's a major part of the teachings.

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#86 Old 10-19-2009, 12:58 PM
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"Consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative."



-Oscar Wilde








who takes any notice of him tho, look at the **** he got himself into
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#87 Old 10-19-2009, 01:00 PM
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But is it too much to ask Buddhists to have the intestinal fortitude to live up to the concept of DO NOT KILL ANY LIVING BEING? If they can't do that, maybe they should re-think being a Buddhist.



In Buddhism, "Do not kill any living being" and "Do not eat any dead being" are not synonymous.
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#88 Old 10-19-2009, 02:13 PM
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In Buddhism, "Do not kill any living being" and "Do not eat any dead being" are not synonymous.

You would think that Buddhism, which emphasizes the concept of "emptiness" (i.e., all things are inter-related) would understand that there is no difference in killing an animal and supporting the killing of an animal, right?



In other words, purchasing a slaughtered animal from a butcher is non-different from killing the animal yourself; eating the charred remains of a murdered animal, acquired from a butcher, is non-different from killing the animal yourself. And so on, ad nauseum.
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#89 Old 10-19-2009, 05:02 PM
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Buddha wasn't a virgin birth. His mother was Queen Mahamaya. She and her husband Suddhodana Gotama had fertility issues. One night she had a dream about a white elephant and a lotus flower that the palace seers later interpreted as a sign that she would be the mother of an enlightened being. She then gave birth to Siddhartha Gotama, who would later be known as the Buddha, or "enlightened one".



So yeah. Not a virgin birth - Mahamaya wasn't a virgin; she'd been trying to have children for years and was consumated at the outset of her marriage. Buddha's birth wasn't miraculous, it was just a stroke of good luck for the royal family.



Maybe you should learn a bit more about individual religions before criticizing them, Adam.



Quote:
Some interpretations of the life story of the Buddha attribute his birth to a virgin birth. This is likely due to a specific interpretation of the prophetic dream Queen Māyā is said to have had prior to conception and is not a widely held view amongst Buddhists.



according to legend, at this time Prince Siddhārtha emerged from her right side and was born.



http://ecumenicalbuddhism.blogspot.c...ave-mercy.html



Of course she wasn't a virgin, because no human can be born without conception. And no human can naturally be born out the side of the body either. Hence there is some absolute bull**** mythology involved in this religion, just like there is in others. perhaps you could learn a little more about your own religion before assuming you know everything?
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#90 Old 10-19-2009, 08:23 PM
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I didn't suggest that people should BLINDLY follow or suppress their true selves. But is it too much to ask Buddhists to have the intestinal fortitude to live up to the concept of DO NOT KILL ANY LIVING BEING? If they can't do that, maybe they should re-think being a Buddhist. It's not like the precept of DO NOT KILL ANY LIVING BEING is a side issue in Buddhism, like drinking alcohol is for Muslims - it's a major part of the teachings.



Again really - Buddhism is, as are other religions, tied up in CULTURAL beliefs also. These CULTURAL beliefs sometimes override the spiritual. This does not make someone any less Buddhist nor does it mean they lack 'intestinal fortitude'. It simply means they do not believe that animals fall into the same category as a living being as humans. This is the same in Christinaity. Americans slaughter people every day on death row yet claim to be a Christian nation. Jesus preached compassion for all living beings and yet animals do not count in Christianty.



This has nothing to do with what religion people are it comes down to their personal beliefs and their own path.

Also Buddhism is not as simple as saying you are a Buddhist. You can also be a follower or sympathiser of Buddha but not necessarily be a Buddhist. This is what you do not seem to understand. It is not as clear cut as getting Baptised and bam you are a Buddhist. Buddhism is journey that starts in taking refuge - a ceremony akin to Baptisim - you do not necessarily take the path of a Bodhisattva as a Buddhist. If you choose this path you take the five precepts - another ceremony (often two to three days long) and you sometimes mark yourself as being on the path to becoming a Bodhisattva - three round circles burned into your flesh with incense pyramids - you see these on the heads of nuns, reverends etc. The average 'Buddhist' that you meet has not gone beyond prostrating and chanting and is very likely still eating meat. This does not make them less Buddhist it just means they have chosen not to take the same path.

what I am trying to get across to you is that while we are told not to kill or harr living beings - depending on your path - you may or may not follow this. It does not make them hypocritical. It took me a long time to understand this and conversations with Reverends certainly helped clarify it for me. I do not expect anything of others I can only look inward and understand and improve what I do. This is not an easy thing to do especially in a world that is very quick to judge without making the effort to investigate, explore or empathise.



You can tie yourself in knots trying to understand why people eat meat and still believe in 'not killing any living beings' or you can let it go and try to understand that it is not them you need to think about its yourself.
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