Intentional homicide rates - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 10-13-2009, 07:17 PM
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As most of us know, the U.S. has remarkably high intentional homicide rates when compared to other industrialized nations (and many non-industrialized nations). http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-...s-05012009.pdf



I don't think that is solely as a result of the high incidence of gun ownership, but is also due to the fact that we glamorize a certain "wild west" mentality. What do you think?
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#2 Old 10-13-2009, 09:22 PM
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Could economic disparity, leading to poverty and more crime, play a part?

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#3 Old 10-13-2009, 09:27 PM
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I would think so. I hadn't considered it, but it is likely that the gap between the haves and the have-nots is considerably bigger in the U.S. I shall have to do a bit of online research.



ETA: Yup. http://www.newsbatch.com/econ-worldgini.html
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#4 Old 10-14-2009, 02:24 AM
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Its been pointed out that per-capita gun ownership in the US has actually gone down in the last 50 years. But the murder rate has gone up. So it must be something to do with US society/culture.
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#5 Old 10-14-2009, 02:57 AM
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That doesn't seem that bad for the size of country - if you compared it to a European average I don't think it would be that far off?



I do think it's ****ed up that everyone has guns there though - how can people think that's a good idea?
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#6 Old 10-14-2009, 03:08 AM
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I do think it's ****ed up that everyone has guns there though - how can people think that's a good idea?

Reading bleeding heart anti-gun sentiment like that gives my uzi triggerfinger an itchin'

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#7 Old 10-14-2009, 03:08 AM
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That doesn't seem that bad for the size of country - if you compared it to a European average I don't think it would be that far off?



I do think it's ****ed up that everyone has guns there though - how can people think that's a good idea?



In a historical context, the founding "fathers" wrote in the right to bear arms because of their need to defend/assert themselves in regards to the British army. Even though the need hardly exists (at the present time), people are very, very nervous and cautious when taking away rights guaranteed to them in the Constitution.



I don't like the idea of guns myself but I don't exactly feel comfortable with my government taking away my rights. It may start with guns but that may open the door to other rights (i.e. abortion).



I'm with Sevenseas on this one. I attribute socioeconomic disparities to the high homicide rate.
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#8 Old 10-14-2009, 03:23 AM
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But governments make laws and change your 'rights' all the time - why are guns so important to the suburban household?
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#9 Old 10-14-2009, 03:28 AM
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Its definitely not just gun ownership. There are a lot of cultural and social/economic variables that probably have as much if not more to do with the rates of intentional murder in the USA. However, if I am not mistaken, the rate of all crime in the USA has been dropping for years although it may have experienced an uptick recently.
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#10 Old 10-14-2009, 03:47 AM
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I don't like the idea of guns myself but I don't exactly feel comfortable with my government taking away my rights. It may start with guns but that may open the door to other rights (i.e. abortion).

You could make the same argument, just as unconvincingly, against restricting the rights to exploit animals through welfare laws, or against past restrictions on domestic violence etc. Those are different issues from guns (I do not think gun ownership is inherently bad, or harmful to anyone) but the slippery slope would apply to them just as plausibly as to gun rights IMO.

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#11 Old 10-14-2009, 03:53 AM
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But governments make laws and change your 'rights' all the time - why are guns so important to the suburban household?



The gun issue is now so entrenched and politicized that its become a 'knee jerk' issue that is unresolvable. The best that can be hoped for is for more gun controls and laws to be put in place to help restrict gun ownership wherever possible but guns will never ever be outlawed in the US. It just won't happen.



I'm more interested as to why americans are choosing to use guns to solve their personal problems (emotional, economic, personal safety) instead of other more effective methods.
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#12 Old 10-14-2009, 06:01 AM
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I can't speak for the rest of the country, but in the South, there is a culture of gun ownership dating back to the 1600's. Ostensibly the gun was used to protect against Indians, and to hunt, but it is also a symbol of power. The Irish and Scots immigrants had been oppressed by the British and they came here determined not to be the victims of an iron-fisted government again. Resisting government oppression is very much a part of that culture and having a gun is just as necessary as having a pair of pants. The rural English culture of the South was strongly heirarchical and very much about using power in cruel ways from the master of the house/plantation down to the slaves. In that sort of situation, cruelty is perpetrated by everyone down to the next person who is weaker. Guns are also a big part of that culture, because they are needed to enforce the hierarchy. When Blacks were freed and migrated to the North, they took this gun culture with them. When a person feels weak or disrespected, I think a gun can make him feel empowered. Once you have a gun, you are a hop, skip and a jump away from commiting gun murder. You certainly can't commit gun murder without a gun.
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#13 Old 10-14-2009, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lurker View Post

That doesn't seem that bad for the size of country - if you compared it to a European average I don't think it would be that far off?



I do think it's ****ed up that everyone has guns there though - how can people think that's a good idea?



Not everyone has guns. What's interesting, though, is that the areas of the country with the highest per capita gun ownership also have the lowest murder/crime rates.
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#14 Old 10-14-2009, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Lurker View Post

That doesn't seem that bad for the size of country - if you compared it to a European average I don't think it would be that far off?



I do think it's ****ed up that everyone has guns there though - how can people think that's a good idea?

I don't have a gun. I know over 100 people I can confirm don't have guns. I've only seen one handgun in my entire life, now that I think of it.

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#15 Old 10-14-2009, 07:49 PM
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Not everyone has guns. What's interesting, though, is that the areas of the country with the highest per capita gun ownership also have the lowest murder/crime rates.



Maybe this means that the criminals have some common sense.

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#16 Old 10-14-2009, 07:55 PM
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Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

Its been pointed out that per-capita gun ownership in the US has actually gone down in the last 50 years. But the murder rate has gone up. So it must be something to do with US society/culture.



excellent point. Guns are just a tool. gun use needs to be sparked by a person. What are the reasons these people feel the need to resort to upping the anty to taking another's life as well as seriously affecting their own freedom? We live in a culture of violence. The older days of fistfighting to settle things is largely over. Maybe things such as high stress, long work hours, infidelity, sleep deprivation, drug/alcohol use, etc. are bound to increase the odds of violence.

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#17 Old 10-14-2009, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by The Lurker View Post

That doesn't seem that bad for the size of country - if you compared it to a European average I don't think it would be that far off?



I do think it's ****ed up that everyone has guns there though - how can people think that's a good idea?

It works like this: when everyone is armed, everyone is safe. That's their core belief in a [wing]nutshell. The interesting thing about this notion is that it only seems applicable to firearms. For example, you rarely if ever hear the gun-toting RWTs equating food for all with an end to domestic hunger, a college education for all with an end to stupidity, or health care for all bringing an end to medical bill bankruptcy.

Keep on freepin' on

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#18 Old 10-15-2009, 12:43 AM
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That doesn't seem that bad for the size of country - if you compared it to a European average I don't think it would be that far off?



I'm not sure what you're referring to? The homicide stats I linked are either on a per thousand or per hundred thousand basis, i.e., adjusted for population.
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#19 Old 10-15-2009, 02:13 AM
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excellent point. Guns are just a tool. gun use needs to be sparked by a person. What are the reasons these people feel the need to resort to upping the anty to taking another's life as well as seriously affecting their own freedom? We live in a culture of violence. The older days of fistfighting to settle things is largely over. Maybe things such as high stress, long work hours, infidelity, sleep deprivation, drug/alcohol use, etc. are bound to increase the odds of violence.



Perhaps its as simple as the ending of the fistfight culture to relieve pressure? In the UK fistfights are still relatively common. People can vent at each other with varying levels of interaction from yelling to threats to pushing to throwing punches. That doesn't seem to happen in the US anymore. Perhaps people just let things build up and up and up and then explode into a murderous rage using weapons? I'm thinking of that Cho fellow who shot up a college as an example...
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#20 Old 10-15-2009, 02:47 AM
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Originally Posted by sorrowthepig View Post

It works like this: when everyone is armed, everyone is safe. That's their core belief in a [wing]nutshell. The interesting thing about this notion is that it only seems applicable to firearms. For example, you rarely if ever hear the gun-toting RWTs equating food for all with an end to domestic hunger, a college education for all with an end to stupidity, or health care for all bringing an end to medical bill bankruptcy.



What are you talking about? I don't know anyone that thinks it's a bad idea for people to buy food if they're hungry. OTOH - there's no evidence so far that college is a cure for stupidity.
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#21 Old 02-20-2018, 06:28 AM
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hearing people talk about not wanting to kill people, makes him want to kill people
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