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#61 Old 10-07-2009, 06:22 PM
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It wasn't till later in the 19th century, though, that the popular image of the "First Thanksgiving" took root. Earlier, while the Indian wars were still raging, scenes of settlers and natives engaging in joint revelry seemed inconceivable."



it still seems inconceivable now because Pilgrims were coming to the new world because England wasn't religious enough, why would they sit down and eat with "heathen savages"?



I still don't think that it happened.

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#62 Old 10-07-2009, 06:35 PM
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it still seems inconceivable now because Pilgrims were coming to the new world because England wasn't religious enough, why would they sit down and eat with "heathen savages"?



I still don't think that it happened.



You may very well be right...I was just looking for something to describe the meaning of what Thanksgiving is/was for me growing up as opposed to celebrating the "Hey, thanks for letting us kick your ass, steal your land, rape your women, and in return, you can thank us for giving you alcoholism!"



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#63 Old 10-07-2009, 06:46 PM
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You may very well be right...I was just looking for something to describe the meaning of what Thanksgiving is/was for me growing up as opposed to celebrating the "Hey, thanks for letting us kick your ass, steal your land, rape your women, and in return, you can thank us for giving you alcoholism!"






i hear ya.



but this is kind of another annoying thing - "letting us kick your ass, steal your land"



uhm....there were many native revolts and uprisings and such, it wasn't a complete slaughter, they did put up a fight.













now the rape - yes, which isn't something that is talked about a lot, but the rape of native women and "black women" led to Latinos. there was also systematic extermination of women and children specifically - putting out bounties for scalps of under the age of 12 year old natives?



shameful.



and it's more than alcoholism. it's drug abuse of all kinds, domestic violence, all kinds of things. i mean, some reservations have 50, 60% unemployment!



sometimes i feel like i should shut my mouth about institutional racism towards 'black' people, because native americans are treated even worse, so so badly.

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#64 Old 10-07-2009, 07:30 PM
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In our nation's history, we have a lot to be ashamed of. A lot.



But I still love that many of us can share one day a year and be thankful for the comforts we have in our lives. To express thanks, to actually say thank you, shows that you don't take something for granted. I think it's good for the soul to be periodically reminded that most of us have lives of abundance. And whether you believe that the good things in life are given by a higher power or by simply the luck of the draw, whether you know your ancestors were ruthless conquerors or slaves, and whether or not you believe that serving turkey at this holiday is unethical, I still think it's most important to pause, and be honestly grateful for all that we have at this moment in time.

It is our choices that show what we truly are far more than our abilities. ~A. Dumbledore
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#65 Old 10-07-2009, 07:32 PM
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It seems to be a case of focussing only on the bad and never on the good.
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#66 Old 10-07-2009, 07:36 PM
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It seems to be a case of focussing only on the bad and never on the good.



well, seeing as the "good" might not have ever existed (which i don't think happened AT ALL), what else to focus on than the bad?

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#67 Old 10-07-2009, 07:40 PM
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well, seeing as the "good" might not have ever existed (which i don't think happened AT ALL), what else to focus on than the bad?



You don't think the concept of thanking God, or the earth, or just life, for the abundance with which we have is good? You don't thinking being thankful we have family to spend time with and warm food to fill our bellies is good? You don't think we should be thankful for what we have? Then you and I have different views on life, because I have much to be thankful for, which is way I like the concept of a day of thankfulness. Many religions, even false ones such as Paganism, have such festivals and days of thanks. What is so bad about the concept of a secular one?
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#68 Old 10-07-2009, 08:04 PM
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You don't think the concept of thanking God, or the earth, or just life, for the abundance with which we have is good? You don't thinking being thankful we have family to spend time with and warm food to fill our bellies is good? You don't think we should be thankful for what we have? Then you and I have different views on life, because I have much to be thankful for, which is way I like the concept of a day of thankfulness. Many religions, even false ones such as Paganism, have such festivals and days of thanks. What is so bad about the concept of a secular one?



paganism a false religion... i am amused. but you also think i'm a charlatan. so whatever.



what i meant by the good never existing, i mean i don't believe the whole "we sat down with indians and ate like civilized humans." that probably didn't happen at all. which is supposed to show how good people can be, look how good christians are, they can even get those heathen savages to eat with us.



and if that's the purpose of thanksgiving, do christians need only one day to do that? aren't you supposed to do that every single day? or have i missed something?

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#69 Old 10-07-2009, 08:16 PM
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in order for people to celebrate they need to come together. a national thanksgiving holiday allows just that. many have long distances to travel. life is short, and families coming together during holidays a couple of times a year is a good thing.



honestly, i can't understand why this would put a bug up anyone's butt. if you don't want to celebrate, then don't. it's extremely simple.i don't see how the present day celebration does anyone harm, except turkeys. now, they have a legitimate complaint .



this is like saying every time you buy something made in germany, you're endorsing the holocaust.
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#70 Old 10-07-2009, 08:36 PM
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paganism a false religion... i am amused. but you also think i'm a charlatan. so whatever.



what i meant by the good never existing, i mean i don't believe the whole "we sat down with indians and ate like civilized humans." that probably didn't happen at all. which is supposed to show how good people can be, look how good christians are, they can even get those heathen savages to eat with us.



and if that's the purpose of thanksgiving, do christians need only one day to do that? aren't you supposed to do that every single day? or have i missed something?



Of course you should have be thankful every day, but having a State mandated public holiday makes it easier for friends and families to come together. Should I refuse and rail against a public holiday and a good dinner with friends at Christmas because Crusaders killed my ancestors? No, I think "my family all has the same day off together - we can actually all get together in the one time and place for once".



As to the "it didn't happen like that" - this is what I meant when I said earlier - you are only looking at the bad rather than the good. If it is a day of Thanksgiving, why not use it to give thanks for what you have rather than wail, complain and cry?



Surely there must be something in your life to be thankful for?
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#71 Old 10-07-2009, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by poppy View Post

in our nation's history, we have a lot to be ashamed of. A lot.



But i still love that many of us can share one day a year and be thankful for the comforts we have in our lives. To express thanks, to actually say thank you, shows that you don't take something for granted. I think it's good for the soul to be periodically reminded that most of us have lives of abundance. And whether you believe that the good things in life are given by a higher power or by simply the luck of the draw, whether you know your ancestors were ruthless conquerors or slaves, and whether or not you believe that serving turkey at this holiday is unethical, i still think it's most important to pause, and be honestly grateful for all that we have at this moment in time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by princess peach View Post

because i have much to be thankful for, which is way i like the concept of a day of thankfulness.



Quote:
Originally Posted by papayamon View Post

in order for people to celebrate they need to come together. A national thanksgiving holiday allows just that. Many have long distances to travel. Life is short, and families coming together during holidays a couple of times a year is a good thing.



Honestly, i can't understand why this would put a bug up anyone's butt. If you don't want to celebrate, then don't. It's extremely simple.i don't see how the present day celebration does anyone harm, except turkeys. Now, they have a legitimate complaint .



This is like saying every time you buy something made in germany, you're endorsing the holocaust.



+1
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#72 Old 10-07-2009, 08:45 PM
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this is like saying every time you buy something made in germany, you're endorsing the holocaust.



i really don't think so, no, not at all.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Princess Peach View Post


As to the "it didn't happen like that" - this is what I meant when I said earlier - you are only looking at the bad rather than the good. If it is a day of Thanksgiving, why not use it to give thanks for what you have rather than wail, complain and cry?

Surely there must be something in your life to be thankful for?



i'm sorry, i don't think you know me at all.



for i am surely not the person you "think" i am, from the few comments in this thread i have made.

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#73 Old 10-07-2009, 09:21 PM
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It seems to be a case of focussing only on the bad and never on the good.





Just like how Stanie refused to even acknowledge my post about doing something positive, rather than just focus on the past.



Some people refuse to see the good in life.

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#74 Old 10-07-2009, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Poppy View Post

In our nation's history, we have a lot to be ashamed of. A lot.



But I still love that many of us can share one day a year and be thankful for the comforts we have in our lives. To express thanks, to actually say thank you, shows that you don't take something for granted. I think it's good for the soul to be periodically reminded that most of us have lives of abundance. And whether you believe that the good things in life are given by a higher power or by simply the luck of the draw, whether you know your ancestors were ruthless conquerors or slaves, and whether or not you believe that serving turkey at this holiday is unethical, I still think it's most important to pause, and be honestly grateful for all that we have at this moment in time.



well said.

The Big Bad.
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#75 Old 10-07-2009, 10:30 PM
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i think that there needs to be a clear division of "giving thanks" from what children are taught about "thanksgiving".



if you are only celebrating the pilgrims squanto ****, then yeah, there is a problem.

if you can just say its my family hanging out, well, that's fine.



if we could some how as an american culture divide the two from each other and stop dressing kids up as pilgrims and indians, i think this wouldn't be such an issue.



as it stands, i see the issue of it, and i don't like it much either.

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#76 Old 10-07-2009, 10:49 PM
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I don't see the problem with coming together to express gratitude for life's abundances and, at the same time, acknowledging what really happened in the early days of our history. Recognizing that Humanity is FAR from perfect, that our society has had its periods of oppression and intolerance, while being grateful for the compassion and love we can share in the here and now.



We can't change the past, but the only thing that will heal the wounds is compassion.

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#77 Old 10-07-2009, 10:52 PM
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My problem with Thanksgiving isn't the treatment of Native Americans (I don't see why it's an issue with the one day of Thanksgiving - the slaughter didn't take place on one day in November, why should our outrage be confined to that one day?). My problem is the modern slaughter of turkeys to support the traditional celebration.



Adopt a Turkey! *gobblegobble*

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#78 Old 10-07-2009, 10:54 PM
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I'm really struggling to understand this controversy about Thanksgiving. After all, aren't all the negative things that have been said about Tanksgiving equally true of the Fourth of July, except more so? After all, we can trace pretty much everything negative that has ever been done by/in this nation back to the declaration of independence/nationhood. The Fourth, not Thanksgiving, is the true nationalistic holiday.



In fact, other than the Fourth and New Year's, all of our major holidays are a mixed bag: Christmas and Easter are celebrated by many non-Christians, and almost all of their trappings are pagan in origin, since the holidays were adopted from the winter Solstice and spring fertility celebrations, respectively. And who even thinks about the original reasons underlying Memorial Day and Labor Day? They're just excuses to barbeque and drink.
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#79 Old 10-07-2009, 10:58 PM
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I'm really struggling to understand this controversy about Thanksgiving. After all, aren't all the negative things that have been said about Tanksgiving equally true of the Fourth of July, except more so? After all, we can trace pretty much everything negative that has ever been done by/in this nation back to the declaration of independence/nationhood. The Fourth, not Thanksgiving, is the true nationalistic holiday.



some Native Americans find offense with Thanksgiving in the same way that they find offense with Columbus day.



meaning, they don't see how its okay to celebrate Plymouth Rock landing on them, and the depiction of them surrounding the holiday.



....thats what my native friends/relatives say.



like, oh we're so nice and welcoming, but and then how naive are we to think that these people wouldn't turn around and kill all of us.



thats how it was explained to me.

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#80 Old 10-07-2009, 11:14 PM
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I can understand the objection to the depiction of the "happy generous Indian." Most depictions of Native Americans are flawed at best, and quite often offensive.



I don't see that it's much worse than any other racial/ethnic/cultural stereotypes tho. Blacks, Gays, Native Americans, Hawaiians, Asians, Muslims, Latinos, Jews, Aboriginals... all have been horribly victimized over the years of human civilization, and have had their struggles and suffering marginalized by contemporary revisionist history.

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#81 Old 10-07-2009, 11:17 PM
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The author of this more honest and even handed account (an American Indian school teacher in Tacoma WA.) tends to agree with you too though he terms Thanksgiving a myth instead of a sham.



http://www.2020tech.com/thanks/temp.html



The Pilgrims were not just innocent refugees from

religious persecution. They were victims of bigotry in

England, but some of them were themselves religious

...

-
snip -

...



This is best illustrated in the written

text of the Thanksgiving sermon delivered at Plymouth in

1623 by "Mather the Elder." In it, Mather the Elder gave

special thanks to God for the devastating plague of

smallpox which wiped out the majority of the Wampanoag

Indians who had been their benefactors. He praised God

for destroying "chiefly young men and children, the very

seeds of increase, thus clearing the forests to make way

for a better growth", i.e., the Pilgrims. In as much

as these Indians were the Pilgrim's benefactors, and

Squanto, in particular, was the instrument of their

salvation that first year, how are we to interpret this

apparent callousness towards their misfortune?



While I'm certain that no one here is celebrating the truth of the early American history, I think it's worth remembering on Thanksgiving day.



It's also worth remembering that you shouldn't believe everything you read on the internet, no matter how well it conforms to your preconceptions. Your 'author' is either a very poor researcher, or is being willfully deceitful.



http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=3974



Quote:
It is interesting to note here a popular myth, which has been perpetuated on Internet sites and in school lesson plans, of a sermon that is said to have been delivered by Mather the Elder on that day. Though documents show that the Mather dynasty of Puritan ministers did not arrive in the New World until 1635, an apocryphal relative is widely reported to have given special thanks to God for a devastating plague of smallpox, which had wiped out the majority of the Wampanoag Indians. This Mather is also said to have praised God for destroying "chiefly young men and children, the very seeds of increase; thus clearing the forest to make way for a better growth. Though these words do not come from a sermon, they are printed in Edward Johnsons circa-1650 book The Wonder-Working Providence.



Written to describe a devastating pestilence that had ravaged the Indian population in 1617, almost a decade prior to the arrival of the colonists, Johnsons words read, Their disease being a sore Consumption [the vernacular for tuberculosis], sweeping away whole Families, but chiefly yong Men and Children, the very seeds of increase . . . by this meanes Christ . . . not onely made roome for his people to plant; but also tamed the hard and cruell hearts of these barborous Indians. The sentiment expressed is very similar to that in the legend, but it is unconnected to the origins of Thanksgiving. Nor did that Thanksgiving in 1623 succeed in establishing an ongoing tradition.



See for yourself - Johnson's "Wonder-working providence" (page 41) :



http://www.archive.org/stream/johnso...ge/40/mode/2up
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#82 Old 10-07-2009, 11:44 PM
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I don't see that it's much worse than any other racial/ethnic/cultural stereotypes tho. Blacks, Gays, Native Americans, Hawaiians, Asians, Muslims, Latinos, Jews, Aboriginals... all have been horribly victimized over the years of human civilization, and have had their struggles and suffering marginalized by contemporary revisionist history.



but how many of them have whole holidays that further confirm those stereotypes?.....



on that front, I think Native Americans really got the shaft.

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#83 Old 10-07-2009, 11:56 PM
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good point. Although, outside of grade school/indoctrination, how often do you really see the whole pilgrim/indian motif used in relation to Thanksgiving? I usually see the feast, the cornucopia, and the ubiquitous turkey.

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#84 Old 10-08-2009, 12:02 AM
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good point. Although, outside of grade school/indoctrination, how often do you really see the whole pilgrim/indian motif used in relation to Thanksgiving? I usually see the feast, the cornucopia, and the ubiquitous turkey.



yeah, thats a point too. i can only think of specials on tv about it (charlie brown kind of things).





but still.



it sucks.

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#85 Old 10-08-2009, 12:36 AM
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I'm still not sure what's particularly damaging, demeaning or insulting to Native Americans about the story that I last heard in grade school with respect to the pilgrims and the Indians sitting down together to eat a meal at the "first Thanksgiving." (Particularly since Native Americans have been depicted so negatively in so many ways over the centuries.) I agree that the European immigrants ultimately, and over a prolonged period of time, pursued a policy of genocide against the Native Americans, and I can certainly understand why a Native American wouldn't want to celebrate Columbus Day (who actually celebrates that anyway?) or Thanksgiving or the Fourth or Christmas or.... I haven't celebrated Christmas (other than getting presents for the little ones in the family) or Easter for years. Actually, I don't think I really celebrate any holiday, other than trying to start the new year with a relatively clean house, and having a family get together over the Thanksgiving weekend, since everyone can get together then. (This year we're meeting on Saturday, in St. Louis.) On the other hand, I don't feel compelled to call any of those holidays a sham, and much less do I feel the need to eigh in on any other country's national holidays.
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#86 Old 10-08-2009, 12:39 AM
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it makes them look like idiots for not realizing that they were about to be massacred.

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#87 Old 10-08-2009, 12:44 AM
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it makes them look like idiots for not realizing that they were about to be massacred.



I would think that it makes the people who wined and dined them in gratitude for everything they had done to help them in the new land, and then massacred them, look far worse. At least, that's what I took from the story when I was seven, and I haven't really ever had a different reaction. Murdering someone who has helped you generally out trumps any perceived naivete, in my book at least.
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#88 Old 10-08-2009, 12:45 AM
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I would think that it makes the people who wined and dined them in gratitude for everything they had done to help them in the new land, and then massacred them, look far worse. At least, that's what I took from the story when I was seven, and I haven't really ever had a different reaction. Murdering someone who has helped you generally out trumps any perceived naivete, in my book at least.



both parties look bad, agreed. but i still think the Native Americans got the shaft on this, in terms of american perception.

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#89 Old 10-08-2009, 12:58 AM
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This idea that the holiday makes Native Americans look bad has been such a novel one for me that I've been looking at a number of sites/resources about the Thanksgiving celebration in the U.S. Nowhere have I seen anything that's disparaging about Native Americans. (In fact, the less superficial resources focus on the tradition of harvest celebrations.)



Considering the really awful depictions of Native Americans in movies, TV and literature throughout the years, it really does amaze me that some people are focusing anger on a positive depiction.
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#90 Old 10-08-2009, 01:09 AM
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Just Thanksgiving bothers you? Not the macabre Christmas practice of cutting down a tree, re-raising it inside your home as a semblance of its life, decorate it and then sing songs to it?
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