The thanksgiving sham - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 10-07-2009, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by stanie View Post

The dinner stands out as one big aspect to consumerism at this time. Im pretty sure capitalism does well over thanksgiving.



A dinner for us is no different than if we all went over to my parents' house for dinner on any other day.
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#32 Old 10-07-2009, 02:32 PM
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The dinner stands out as one big aspect to consumerism at this time. Im pretty sure capitalism does well over thanksgiving.



It's cheaper and consumes less to feed several families at once, in bulk, using ONE oven and running ONE dishwasher, running lights and heating in ONE house, etc. than three or four households doing the same thing for an average dinner.



And sure, people have to drive to get to their location, but entire businesses are shut down for those people to have the day off.
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#33 Old 10-07-2009, 02:34 PM
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http://www.inter-zone.org/thanks.html



Heh..

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#34 Old 10-07-2009, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by stanie View Post

The dinner stands out as one big aspect to consumerism at this time. Im pretty sure capitalism does well over thanksgiving.



Everyone eats, hmmm, other than it definitely stinks for turkeys on Thanksgiving more than other holidays, I don't see anything different about this particular dinner. Mom brings pie, I mash potatoes and squash, Gram brings apple sauce.....*shrug*
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#35 Old 10-07-2009, 02:57 PM
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for me, thanksgiving is often a day i am payed 75 dollars an hour. i greedily suck up the money while not acknowledging the evils that took place a few hundred years ago. however, this year i ain't working. i am enjoying this day with my family for a very nice time. i don't see the evil in that.



bottom line is you can find negative in any and everything. a better question is why do this? what is the benefit, and to whom? what are you prepared to do about it, other than complain?
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#36 Old 10-07-2009, 03:15 PM
 
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And thats the same reason millions of americans give, not so much fior native americans i might add.

What does this sentence even mean?



Many Native Americans even choose to celebrate at Thanksgiving. As mentioned, many times over, the day is largely about family/friends for most people. (and of course the parade..duh )



Quote:
Originally Posted by stanie View Post

Maybe, just maybe, its the mass slaughter and racism native americans received just so you can all give presents and share laughs?

Yeah, I'm sure that this was going through the minds of people back in Plymouth. "Okay, we'll lure them in with a feast, slaughter them all and then have a National holiday."

The ones I pity are the ones who never stick out their neck for something they believe, never know the taste of moral struggle, and never have the thrill of victory. - Jonathan Kozol
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#37 Old 10-07-2009, 03:27 PM
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Maybe, just maybe, its the mass slaughter and racism native americans received just so you can all give presents and share laughs?



Urm, we're not the only ones.
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#38 Old 10-07-2009, 04:23 PM
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If one is to believe the stories, Thanksgiving started as a harvest celebration - giving thanks for crops harvested and the joining together of family and friends that allowed people to survive in a rather harsh world. As such, it's not much different than the ways in which many agrarian societies celebrated the fact that there would (probably) be enough food to survive through the winter and to the next harvest.



Or maybe my perspective is just skewed by the fact that I grew up on a farm.
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#39 Old 10-07-2009, 04:25 PM
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I celebrate hanging out with my family. Nothing more, nothing less.



yup.

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#40 Old 10-07-2009, 04:29 PM
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Originally Posted by stanie View Post

The dinner stands out as one big aspect to consumerism at this time. Im pretty sure capitalism does well over thanksgiving.



So, potlucks and other get togethers with food are wrong? When we eat it,we have leftovers for days and nothing's wasted. It's just a large meal spread out over days.

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#41 Old 10-07-2009, 04:30 PM
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this year we're having thanksgiving outside at my place in the country. i'm buying two picnic tables to put together in one long table. my family is going to converge and we'll have a wonderful day under the oaks. the weather is fantastic this time of year. for the life of me, i can't see why i should make it a lousy time. is it bad because it's a national holiday, and i need to condemn it in order to prove my individuality?



my kids, by the way, are 1/8 choctaw indian. they'll be celebrating too. i'll have to relay your message of gloom and guilt to them... not!!!



i don't know what any of us here can do about past evils man has inflicted on man. they are everywhere you investigate human history. the question is why dwell on them, and not just move ahead? i don't plan on harming anyone, just having a nice time with my family.
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#42 Old 10-07-2009, 04:32 PM
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im sensing heaps of misplaced anger in your posts, would you like to share with us what it is thats really bothering you ??





I would say it's his anger toward the US and it's citizens. Even the citizen's on this site, who are obviously very bad indeed.

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#43 Old 10-07-2009, 04:38 PM
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As I said in another thread (in which I unfortunately encouraged the OP to start a thread of his own)



My Main Points:
  • The past is the past, and even the Native Canadians I know celebrate Thanksgiving.
  • In Canada it's not about Plymouth Rock etc...but actually more-so about 'harvest time.
  • Does the OP celebrate Christmas? it was actually historically created to convert the 'heathen pagans' who were raped and mistreated as well.
  • What kind of society and world would we have it we did not get together as we would be stuck on past atrocities? They happen everyday, even on holidays.

You can choose the negativity for your holiday but it seems to me the rest of us in this thread are going to have an awesome time with family and friends. Best of luck to ya! xo



PS: I really do wish the best for the OP. Why? becuse I used to be the same way. Negativity is a horrible thing, and I caught that disease. It advanced to the point where I saw negativity in everything and forgot that we need to look at the intentions of ourselves and others, rather than the mistakes or problems. I got myself out of that hole, and suddenly I had more friends, my job got easier, I liked myself better, and life didn't seem so bloody bad.



I'm sending positive thoughts your way Stanie in the hopes that you can see the sunshine instead of the clouds.
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#44 Old 10-07-2009, 04:42 PM
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Go ahead and choose the negativity for your holiday, it seems to me the rest of us in this thread are going to have an awesome time with family and friends. Best of luck to ya! xo



Agreed. We make absolutely amazing vegan food that's the best i've ever had anywhere. It's nice to share it with the meat eaters as well and open up their minds to tasty vegan food.

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#45 Old 10-07-2009, 04:45 PM
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Agreed. We make absolutely amazing vegan food that's the best i've ever had anywhere. It's nice to share it with the meat eaters as well and open up their minds to tasty vegan food.



Exactly. I'm excited to celebrate my first Thanksgiving with my boyfriend and it's open to anyone else who has no where else to go or wants to join us. Even if it is just he and I, it's good intentions and good food!
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#46 Old 10-07-2009, 04:52 PM
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"Hey, thanks for letting us kick your ass, steal your land, rape your women, and in return, you can thank us for giving you alcoholism!"



Why do people feel they can only spend time with family on these holidays? Are people that stupid that they have to be TOLD when to spend time with others?



Oh, it dosnt apply to just thanksgiving, theres christmas, easter and all the other xtian crap





so you're saying i shouldn't find an indian and hit him, force him to sign over his property, rape his wife and then get him drunk and thank him?



now you're ruined my thanksgiving plans .
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#47 Old 10-07-2009, 05:06 PM
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so you're saying i shouldn't find an indian and hit him, force him to sign over his property, rape his wife and then get him drunk and thank him?



now you're ruined my thanksgiving plans .



LMAO! nice one.



I was planning on killing some nuns and kittens, but thank God he stopped us in time! LOL
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#48 Old 10-07-2009, 05:09 PM
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LMAO! nice one.



I was planning on killing some nuns and kittens, but thank God he stopped us in time! LOL



what holiday celebrates the killings of nuns and kittens? sounds cool. Maybe we should try and start it and see if it picks up.

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#49 Old 10-07-2009, 05:13 PM
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what holiday celebrates the killings of nuns and kittens? sounds cool. Maybe we should try and start it and see if it picks up.



Oops...I accidentally read from my Satanic Cult rule-book.



But I'm sure it would gain popularity among emo kids....all we need is a basement, some emo teens, dark music, and someone who is the 'highly convincing older person who has a car."



Oh yeah...and those over-priced black cigarettes. It's like cat-nip for emos.



Then, the holiday will begin....

(Probably on MySpace...as if their parents found out they'd be in huge trouble)
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#50 Old 10-07-2009, 05:18 PM
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Couldn't we kill the emo kids instead? I find kittens much more appealing than teenagers.
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#51 Old 10-07-2009, 05:24 PM
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Couldn't we kill the emo kids instead? I find kittens much more appealing than teenagers.



Good idea...change of plans! 'emocide!!!"
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#52 Old 10-07-2009, 05:29 PM
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Good idea...change of plans! 'emocide!!!"

I think at that point, it just becomes mass martyrdom. It might create MORE emo kids, too. Beware!
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#53 Old 10-07-2009, 05:32 PM
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Originally Posted by stanie View Post

Thats what it is, a sham.

Why do people seem to ignore the mass genocide that took place in north america when "celebrating" this day?



I think your point has been too easily dismissed by those accustomed to the casual nature of the Thanksgiving celebration.



The author of this more honest and even handed account (an American Indian school teacher in Tacoma WA.) tends to agree with you too though he terms Thanksgiving a myth instead of a sham.



http://www.2020tech.com/thanks/temp.html



The Pilgrims were not just innocent refugees from

religious persecution. They were victims of bigotry in

England, but some of them were themselves religious

bigots by our modern standards. The Puritans and the

Pilgrims saw themselves as the "Chosen Elect" mentioned

in the book of Revelation. They strove to "purify" first

themselves and then everyone else of everything they did

not accept in their own interpretation of scripture.

Later New England Puritans used any means, including

deceptions, treachery, torture, war, and genocide to

achieve that end. They saw themselves as fighting a

holy war against Satan, and everyone who disagreed with

them was the enemy. This rigid fundamentalism was

transmitted to America by the Plymouth colonists, and it

sheds a very different light on the "Pilgrim" image we

have of them. This is best illustrated in the written

text of the Thanksgiving sermon delivered at Plymouth in

1623 by "Mather the Elder." In it, Mather the Elder gave

special thanks to God for the devastating plague of

smallpox which wiped out the majority of the Wampanoag

Indians who had been their benefactors. He praised God

for destroying "chiefly young men and children, the very

seeds of increase, thus clearing the forests to make way

for a better growth", i.e., the Pilgrims. In as much

as these Indians were the Pilgrim's benefactors, and

Squanto, in particular, was the instrument of their

salvation that first year, how are we to interpret this

apparent callousness towards their misfortune?




While I'm certain that no one here is celebrating the truth of the early American history, I think it's worth remembering on Thanksgiving day.
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#54 Old 10-07-2009, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mlp View Post

If one is to believe the stories, Thanksgiving started as a harvest celebration - giving thanks for crops harvested and the joining together of family and friends that allowed people to survive in a rather harsh world. As such, it's not much different than the ways in which many agrarian societies celebrated the fact that there would (probably) be enough food to survive through the winter and to the next harvest.



Or maybe my perspective is just skewed by the fact that I grew up on a farm.



I rather like the idea of giving thanks for what we have. Just because some companies see the commerial benefit in a holiday such as this does not mean an individual or family has to. You can approach it like mlp does, with thanks for the fruits the earth has given us.
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#55 Old 10-07-2009, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by mlp View Post

If one is to believe the stories, Thanksgiving started as a harvest celebration - giving thanks for crops harvested and the joining together of family and friends that allowed people to survive in a rather harsh world. As such, it's not much different than the ways in which many agrarian societies celebrated the fact that there would (probably) be enough food to survive through the winter and to the next harvest.



Or maybe my perspective is just skewed by the fact that I grew up on a farm.



I rather like the idea of giving thanks for what we have. Just because some companies see the commerial benefit in a holiday such as this does not mean an individual or family has to. You can approach it like mlp does, with thanks for the fruits the earth has given us. I am not American and do not like much of that culture, but the concept of Thanksgiving has always struck me as rather nice.
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#56 Old 10-07-2009, 05:41 PM
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my native american husband & his family do not celebrate thanksgiving.



my family does not either. we watch football and drink beer and enjoy the free time off.



we think that its a holiday invented to gloss over the nasty parts of our history and make white people not look so bad in face of the native american genocide & what not.



so, we don't celebrate it.



but then again. we don't celebrate easter or xmas really either.

cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war.
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#57 Old 10-07-2009, 05:43 PM
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We have many Native American friends, who also do not share in the warm fuzzies of the holiday. I understand that totally.
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#58 Old 10-07-2009, 05:46 PM
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We have many Native American friends, who also do not share in the warm fuzzies of the holiday. I understand that totally.



Just curious - do they have a harvest celebration?
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#59 Old 10-07-2009, 06:01 PM
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Just curious - do they have a harvest celebration?



it varies from tribe to tribe. danzig's tribe doesn't have a "thanksgiving" like thing because he is from a desert tribe. but i'm sure it's different with plains indians or like the choctaw from mississippi.

cry havoc! and let slip the dogs of war.
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#60 Old 10-07-2009, 06:11 PM
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I had to do some searching to find something that would pretty much sum up what Thanksgiving is/has been for me and my family over the years. I'm sure the God stuff and reference to the menu will annoy some...they're not my words but what I found online.

Thanksgiving has become my favorite holiday, even over Christmas, surprisingly enough. Any holiday is what you make of it. No one has to buy into the commercialism of it. It's a great time to get together with family and friends and share a good meal.



Here's what I found online:



"In autumn 1621, about a year after the Mayflower Pilgrims made landfall at Plymouth, they put together a feast and broke bread with their Native American neighbors, the Wampanoag, who were celebrating Keepunumuk, the time of the harvest. The menu featured fowl, venison and fish, along with wheat and corn products. A contemporary account written by colonist Edward Winslow showed the assembled to be content with their lot:



'And although it be not always so plentiful as it was at this time with us [when we were back in England], yet by the goodness of God, we are so far from want that we often wish you [our English brethren] partakers of our plenty.'



Sporadic national, regional and individual Thanksgivings followed, but the day did not become an annual, national holiday until 1863. Americans were waging the Civil War, and in the midst of it President Abraham Lincoln, spurred on by the lobbying efforts of writer Sarah Josepha Hale, proclaimed a national day in which to express thanks for the many blessings enjoyed by Americans, e.g., natural resources and population growth, despite the military conflict:



'They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy.



It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and voice by the whole American people. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens.'



It wasn't till later in the 19th century, though, that the popular image of the "First Thanksgiving" took root. Earlier, while the Indian wars were still raging, scenes of settlers and natives engaging in joint revelry seemed inconceivable."
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