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#1 Old 10-17-2008, 12:49 AM
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I have been thinking about this a lot lately. I love to say I am an atheist to feel like a bad a . I do not believe in any form of God. I believe in karma or the wiccan read but I have seen so many bad things happen to decent people and so many bad things happen to good people that I am questioned about it. In a point things have a reason for happening. I believe everyone living thing has a spirit and a non religious soul. We are a product of our up bringing but also our spirit. I was raised catholic but have no beliefs from that then the golden rule. I think if you a good person, people will be good back (I contradict myself a lot because I think a lot of humanity will f you over for the money or power). I want to believe in the dead spirits or "(angles in Catholicism') watching over us or ghosts but I also think that may be just people influencing you. The physics are so vague but it nice to hear. I love the scary haunting stuff, I was part of a club that investigated that type of things. In a way I think is all just mass hysteria. If you put something in someones mind they are going to try to find it. It is the way the human mind works aka looking for faces in things that have no relevance. I sometimes hardly believe in the floor I am walking on.

There are a few things in every religion I like but none of them seem to make me feel like they are real. They look good on paper type of thing.

I just know I am trying not to hurt anything and be a good person.



So the last of my silly post, just asks why you believe what you do? I am curious, was it up bringing or your choise?



(I am sorry for my poor grammar and the randomness of the writing)

"Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and it's better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring."
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#2 Old 10-17-2008, 02:11 AM
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i think people misunderstand karma as some kind of cosmic force for justice, like divine intervention. that may be one understanding, but it's not the way i understand it (if i'm to take it seriously). buddha equated karma with volatility. so although there's good and bad karma with respective good and bad results, someone who's enlightened, according to the buddha, produces NO karmic repercussions. this sounds confusing as presumably an enlightened individual in the buddhist tradition would benefit from their good and selfless works, but this person is in a state of equanimity, their minds free of volatility, so at this point no matter what actions they undertake (which come with pure intentions, mind you), they will have no effect on their state of wellbeing, their minds being unalterable by outside forces.



so there's that.



now, for someone who commits despicable acts, say they enjoy giving people nipple twisters for the pure sadistic enjoyment of it, they may, as long as they live, never receive a nipple twist in return. this doesn't mean, however, that they're free of their own karmic repercussions. you have to take into account all the factors surrounding this nipple twister's actions, including internal, psychological ones. first of all, this person is going to alienate the people around him. even if he gains followers, they're going to follow him out of fear or their own twisted sadistic perversions. there won't likely be love and respect in this person's relationships with others. then you have to consider that only a tortured individual would act in such a despicable manner, so it isn't as if this person is experiencing joy and happiness in spite of his misdeeds.



that's a weird example. okay, think of the super rich. think of how much discontent it would require to never be satisfied with how much you own, or how much power you wield. outwardly, and according to society's warped values of what is desirable, they may seem successful and enviable, but you wouldn't want to be them.
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#3 Old 10-17-2008, 03:43 AM
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I don't know the genesis of my worldview. Just one day when I was about 5, I reasoned that if Santa, the Easter bunny, tooth fairy, and boggy man, (and other magical beings) were fake, then it was logical that god (another magical being) was fake as well.



My mother was (is) a holiday Christian, my father was Jewish. My parent were divorced, and my mother had custody, so my father assumed she would raise me Christian. My learned about Christianity "on the street" from other kids, and about Judaism from my Aunt and Uncle who are Orthodox. None of the adults pushed their beliefs on me, but they did assume that the "fundamental" belief in a divine entity was already drilled into my head.(which it hadn't been) So I had the luxury of figuring out whether a god exists or not on my own.

Happiness is not the result of a mathematical equation comparing the good times and bad times someone has had. It is a state of mind.
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#4 Old 10-17-2008, 06:18 AM
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I would recommend the book "the World's Religions" by Huston Smith.

It is an excellent book, treating all religions with respect and delving into the basics of them, which turn out to be surprisingly non-corrupt and strangely similar. It's a very eye-opening and wonderful book for anyone who is doubtful, curious, cynical, or jaded. Best of all, it allows you to make up your own mind and doesn't shove you into one particular path of belief.
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#5 Old 10-17-2008, 02:32 PM
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I was born and raised Catholic, but I turned away from the Church when I was 11, just before I was to start classes for confirmation when I learned that our priest, whom I loved, was a hunter. I didn't think that a man of god should be able to kill things for fun.



I maintained an interest in learning about all world religions, and I went to a Catholic elementary school and a Lutheran High School. Both schools were incredibly open minded and we learned about all world religions in a very respectful manner. I continued exploring on my own, and throughout university where I studied anthropology.



After about 15 years of learning and searching, I came to develop my own set of beliefs about God and the nature of the universe. I had experiences of absolute unity with the divine love that is the underlying nature of reality- which I call God for short. My views are pretty much a mesh together of Eastern and Western thoughts which would most closely align with spirtual teachings of the ancient Vedas.



I believe that we are all one. We are the universe experiencing everything. Every single possiblilty that could exist does exist, concurrently. The idea that we are seperate entities from the universe is an illusion, created so we can experience seperateness. Even the concept of time is an illusion because we can only see into 4 dimensions. Everything is happening 'now'. The present moment is the only one that exists. Everything is as it should be. We are everything.



As soon as I started to think along these lines, I found peace and joy in every moment. I know that at the core of everything, is only love- divine love.



'Religion' as it has been was a useful tool for people who had a limited capacity for understanding God. The messages of all religions boil down to one thing... Love. That's it. The rest is dogma, man made/made from culture.



There is a shift now, where more and more people are moving away from traditional religions and starting to understand the unifying force of the universe is love. This perspective is going to change the world when it hits a critical mass.

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#6 Old 10-19-2008, 08:49 PM
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I believe your confusion stems from the desire to implement sense into your beliefs despite not trying hard enough to find the sense in them.



Quote:
I want to believe in the dead spirits or "(angles in Catholicism') watching over us or ghosts but I also think that may be just people influencing you. The physics are so vague but it nice to hear. I love the scary haunting stuff,



This sounds like a clear result of someone who wishes for the improbable and doesn't pursue learning the provided logic. This can be solved in two ways, 1.) accept things like spirits and ghosts are not only impossible in nature, but even initially ridiculous and 2.) pursue learning the workings of reason such as physics, the probable reason why you find it vague is either because you never paid enough attention to understanding it or that those who attempted to teach it to you did a poor job.



Either way works, it's ultimately your decision.
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#7 Old 10-19-2008, 10:37 PM
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I respect religion (in general at least). I think, if for any other reason, one can respect it as an important form of history and a strong basis for a given culture/society. These religions are in many respects the foundations of our cultures and cultural symbols. I mean, take Hinduism, that has a god for just about every imaginable thing, and then another 3,000 gods for each god: you don't necessarily need to believe in Lakshmi, for instance, in order to call the idea of Lakshmi to mind, to play with that concept in a meaningful way. These icons or ideals or rules are very potent expressions of human psychology, ones that have evolved over time (in the case of Hinduism, in a very direct way as one god supplants another over the centuries). I think people are confused in thinking that religion is "stuck in the past" since so much of it can and does move with the currents of thought. Lakshmi today most certainly is not the same thing as the Lakshmi (or equivalent) of 1000BC. It is a symbol, which reflects a form of traditional knowledge (that can be strikingly true sometimes), and is further developed by one's own intellectual context.



And then there are people that have, in their minds, witnessed miracles or had prayers answered. Perhaps all of these can be boiled down into the inevitable permutations of random reality, whereby some prayers will get answered in accidental fashion. Or maybe not. There is no clear scientific reason to believe miracles are answered, but there is also no clear reason to believe they are not. Logically, one would assume they aren't, but that is hardly convincing to those that have so "witnessed".



And finally there's the issue of afterlife and mortality and human inadequacy that plagues human existence, issues so deep and threatening that some sort of ideological barrier is necessary for the continuation of life. And these barriers (religions) are given room to live by the gaping holes in scientific understanding of reality.



I'm personally fairly agnostic/atheist, but I have always kept a religious, or at least spiritual (depending on definition) side. I've seen my "miracles", am aware of my shortcomings and inevitabilities, and appreciate widely-known symbology.



P.S. There is a lot of dirt beneath the floor you are walking on, which in such mass quantities provides a compacting force that underpins much of the reason that floor is considered "solid". It is a matter of ratios between various forces - your existence above the floor and the floor's existence itself depends on the balancing of a number of overlapping systems.



Then again, physics dictates that if you live long enough, sooner or later you'll fall right through the floor for no real reason at all.



Even science is prone to what would appear to be complete idiocy and self-contradiction on the face of it.
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#8 Old 10-19-2008, 11:25 PM
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Then again, physics dictates that if you live long enough, sooner or later you'll fall right through the floor for no real reason at all.



And from what lesson in physics did you acquire this knowledge? Several points about this sentence are simply uncanny.
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#9 Old 10-20-2008, 02:16 AM
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And from what lesson in physics did you acquire this knowledge? Several points about this sentence are simply uncanny.

I can only count two points in the sentence that I made, so the other two are beyond me...



[fake, and probably far too small, numbers ahead] (1/1e10) chance of electron passing through a physical barrier (the floor) via wave-function probability ^ 1e100 electrons (whatever it is in the human body) x infinite time permutations -> probability = 1



The reason? Random chance, aka "no real reason".



The fun of quantum tunneling. Of course, "live long enough" meant something like a trillion trillion trillion... you get the point.
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#10 Old 10-20-2008, 03:13 AM
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And from what lesson in physics did you acquire this knowledge? Several points about this sentence are simply uncanny.



When I seen this thread, my first thought was.."how soon will the disagreements start" and whallaa, didn't take long.



It just seems religion is a very touchy subject here, like it is in life.



Just sayin'





BTW..I love reading everyone's view on religion in here, you all have interesting and very well thought out and put together opinions. I've really learned a lot about religion from this forum, more than I have in my lifetime.
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#11 Old 10-20-2008, 07:08 AM
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[fake, and probably far too small, numbers ahead] (1/1e10) chance of electron passing through a physical barrier (the floor) via wave-function probability ^ 1e100 electrons (whatever it is in the human body) x infinite time permutations -> probability = 1



The reason? Random chance, aka "no real reason".



This is hardly an equation. In what realm of the imagination did you come up with this?
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#12 Old 10-20-2008, 07:58 AM
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And from what lesson in physics did you acquire this knowledge? Several points about this sentence are simply uncanny.



I don't know about physics, but a fundimental premis of statistics is :



Give sufficient time and opportunity (number of chances), anything that is possible will eventually occure.



(e.g. With billions and billions of stars in the universe, and billions of years of

planet formation, a few (at least one anyway) had just the right combination of chemicals and environment to produce life...as we know it)

Happiness is not the result of a mathematical equation comparing the good times and bad times someone has had. It is a state of mind.
-nomad888
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#13 Old 10-20-2008, 09:13 AM
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I don't know about physics, but a fundimental premis of statistics is :



Give sufficient time and opportunity (number of chances), anything that is possible will eventually occure.



(e.g. With billions and billions of stars in the universe, and billions of years of

planet formation, a few (at least one anyway) had just the right combination of chemicals and environment to produce life...as we know it)



Now this is reasonable. However I can only hope everyone knows that "falling through the floor for no reason" is quite impossible.
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#14 Old 10-20-2008, 12:44 PM
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Now this is reasonable. However I can only hope every knows that "falling through the floor for no reason" is quite impossible.

That's effectively what I said

In maths form.



And it's not impossible to fall through the floor, just quite nearly so, which was my point.
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#15 Old 10-20-2008, 01:46 PM
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That's effectively what I said

In maths form.



And it's not impossible to fall through the floor, just quite nearly so, which was my point.



Ah, to fall through the floor is quite possible, but things are only possible for a reason.



The downward force of the pressing weight collapsed the floor.



After years of weathering, erosion, rust and termite problems, the floor broke away.



The floor contained a readily prepared trapdoor with which one could swiftly drop through.



All of which are circumstances in which a person could potentially fall through a floor, however all of which also retains a reason why. Without a reason, an event is merely imaginary and only existent within the mind of another or an otherwise abstract environment.



Now I understand your bent desire to represent a contradictory stance in mathematics, but you have yet to learn that the idea of math is abstract and thus can only ever truly affect that of abstract things, such as virtual environments. In such environments you'll find almost anything is possible, it's because the virtual world doesn't adhere to reason, just the random number generator. And our world doesn't function on a random number generator. So while your equation may work in an abstract environment, the real world operates through a constant cause and effect, a reason and an outcome. So believe what you may about probabilities, but know that unless you govern the world in which these probabilities exist (such as a virtual environment), these probabilities will always be dependent on reason.
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#16 Old 10-20-2008, 02:13 PM
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No need for the insulting approach, I'm just trying to demonstrate how ridiculous actuality can be if given the chance (and, given BECs that chance goes up exponentially, beyond the academic). Taking a step back from physics and the various -ologies and -ics, the impression one gets of the world is that it's a pretty crazy place to begin with. It's a matter of perspective...



It's quantum tunneling, nothing to do with erosion and all that. And the real world does work fundamentally on random chance. God plays dice and all that, you know? He's a mad gambler. At least, that's where our current limitations have driven us in theoryland. Could be around the bend we find out it's all being controlled by little virtual gremlins on strings or something



Edit: sorry for the offtopicness. I don't suppose I have much more to say anyway on this tangent.
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#17 Old 10-21-2008, 08:42 AM
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I was not being insulting and I disagree that the world's activities revolve around random chance. Do you honestly believe the temperature outdoors is what it is because it was selected at random? It certainly wasn't.



Then again if you choose to believe in a God rolling dice behind the scenes I think it's clear we will rarely find ourselves on similar wavelengths.
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#18 Old 10-21-2008, 01:56 PM
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Dogma, saying I have a "bent desire" and then presuming the worst in my comments by ignoring my qualifiers is an insulting approach; saying I've "imagined" quantum mechanics likewise. Don't worry, I don't take offense, but I'm pointing out that it isn't intellectually respectful or honest



And the "God playing dice" comment was a take on Einstein's "God does not play dice" line, which was likewise referencing the inherent random nature of the fundamental components of the universe (and, according to current theory the fundamental fabric of space-time itself)...



And before you jump on me for it, the virtual gremlins on strings was referencing virtual particles and string theory. 'Twas a silly pun...



Ahem... so, moving on then, religion, atheism, spirituality...
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#19 Old 10-21-2008, 02:31 PM
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The only thing I can explain is my personal experience. Your feelings and beliefs, like mine, will continue to change throughout your lifetime as you gain new information and understandings!



That said, I was raised Methodist. I started out with strong roots in religion.

When my thinking mind was awakened, I started questioning everything. Like you, I came to the conclusion that God does not exist. I became an atheist.

I continued to inquire, like you are now, skeptically though, into every type of thinking. I had a hunger to know and understand everything but wanted not to believe it more than I wanted to believe it.

Despite that fact, unanswerable questions, the help of the beliefs and understandings of some of the world's brightest minds, and understandings gathered by my own personal experiences led me to become agnostic. I understood that there was something there beyond the explanation of religion but also beyond the explanation of my inquiring mind. I didn't know what and I didn't claim to know. I was extremely humbled in the presence of this great "something" which could be felt by all but explained by none and that I understood to be bigger than reasoning and induction could ever reach.

I continued to explore, investigate, I did everything I could to satiate this gnawing hunger in the back of my mind, my heart, to understand what was going on. Why, if I knew empirically that God did not exist, did I keep coming back to the question of "his" existence? Why did this feeling plague me almost constantly that I was wrong? One might argue that it was my socio-cultural surroundings and mindset that led me to feel this need to know, but I would contrarily argue that I had so rejected that society that I would much rather NOT have brought up those questions. I would rather have stayed ignorant in my thinking mind than conformed to those feelings. Yet I was compelled to do so and found myself at every moment following that feeling in the back of my mind that I had somehow missed something essential; even as I spoke the words, "I'm agnostic," a twinge in my heart whispered, "No, you're not."

So after years of questioning, seeking, learning, experiencing, and on and on, after years of being disappointed by the results my mind had produced, I logically tried a different way to figure things out and trusted my heart. I gave into my feelings, which is very scary at first, especially to someone who puts so much faith in knowledge, science, inductive reasoning. But once I was able to do that I found not an explanation for everything, but rather an understanding. The difference is that an explanation comes from the thought process, logic, whereas understanding is an innate knowing from within. I understood that God is in everything, everything is connected, we are all (dare I say) Love (not scientific "love" designed to generate reproduction, but the Love in which everything is created, thrives, exists).

Once I gained that understanding, I found that I could return with my mind and think through what I now knew, and-- shockingly-- it all made sense. It all lined up. Thankfully my knowledge and Knowledge were perfectly complementary.

And it is an ongoing process of gaining greater insight and checking it with my thoughts. I don't dogmatically go with my feelings, rejecting completely science and logic. The greatest part of it is realizing that science and logic are a part of the whole, not the whole. They are an integral part of the greater picture but ultimately they are not the greater picture. But since they fit in, have their place, they can be utilized as a tool to understanding Truth.

My spiritual journey has been rocky and long and will never be finished. I hope my story has inspired some more questions and thoughts for you!
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#20 Old 10-21-2008, 04:13 PM
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Great post, allyse!



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#21 Old 10-21-2008, 08:06 PM
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BTW..I love reading everyone's view on religion in here, you all have interesting and very well thought out and put together opinions. I've really learned a lot about religion from this forum, more than I have in my lifetime.

I do love learning about religions. I think is important to be open minded about everything. The more you learn the more you grow.



I was raised catholic. I went to eleven years of private catholic school. I was sick of things being shoved down my throat. I think about everything a lot.



I did not want an argument. i just wanted opinions.

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#22 Old 10-21-2008, 10:19 PM
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God plays dice and all that, you know? He's a mad gambler.





Yep, I froze my arse off at the Mandalay once watching him play Texas hold 'em.
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#23 Old 10-21-2008, 10:38 PM
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Yes, I agree Allyse, excellent post.



Everyone has their own journey. I had somewhat similar experience (although not a religious upbringing)- questioning, rejecting God and religion throughout my 20's(and heck I still can't stand lots of things about organized religion and how people have used religion as an excuse to attempt to justify crimes against humanity, not to mention judgmental religious people).



I am also someone who is very interested in, and knowledgeable about, science. That is something I still have trouble reconciling (science and religion) but why not question? Sometimes if it feels right you have to trust and believe but that doesn't mean you can't always keep an open mind and examine everything fully. I don't think science can explain everything but I don't think religion can either, which can often make them strangely complementary.



You learn something new everyday, and I feel sorry for people who aren't open to new processes and ways of looking at the world.
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#24 Old 10-21-2008, 10:40 PM
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You learn something new everyday, and I feel sorry for people who aren't open to new processes and ways of looking at the world.



Me too. They'll wind up missing out on so many amazing things.

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Lokah Samastah Sukhino Bhavanto

'May everyone everywhere be happy
May the whole world be joyous'
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#25 Old 11-03-2008, 08:15 AM
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I was brought up Christian/Baptist, but got over it after high school. I've since learned lots of things about how things work on our planet, and have found what resonates with me and what makes sense to me.



I believe in us having souls and that we come to this planet for soul growth. There's no other place in the Universe where our souls can evolve as quickly as this dense planet we live on. Any experiences you have here help your soul grow very quickly.



We're all here with no recollection of where we come from. Which makes you want to be nice to everyone, since we're all trying to get through this life together, doesn't it?



I have the firm belief that we're all part of the same energy, and we all come from the same source. I really don't believe that God is a guy, but energy produces energy, and that there's a main source of creative energy for this universe.



As for Karma, if you believe the part about us all being the same energy, what you put out (bad actions or thoughts toward someone) is bound to reverberate back to you. You can't make waves in a pool without the waves eventually coming back to you.
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#26 Old 11-03-2008, 08:25 AM
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This is my simple religion. There is no need for temples; no need for complicated philosophy. Our own brain, our own heart is our temple; the philosophy is kindness.



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#27 Old 11-03-2008, 09:28 AM
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I do love learning about religions. I think is important to be open minded about everything. The more you learn the more you grow.



I was raised catholic. I went to eleven years of private catholic school. I was sick of things being shoved down my throat. I think about everything a lot.



I did not want an argument. i just wanted opinions.



I recommend these books:



The God Delusion

God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything

The End of Faith: Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason
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#28 Old 11-03-2008, 12:24 PM
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The atheist guy in Ybor! he was pretty nifty and nice! His sign says "Jesus isnt comming" He is awesome!

"Imperfection is beauty, madness is genius and it's better to be absolutely ridiculous than absolutely boring."
 Marilyn Monroe
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#29 Old 11-03-2008, 02:02 PM
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Maybe this will help, girlystar:









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