An orange on the seder plate? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 03-30-2005, 12:39 PM
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For the past 15 years or so my aunt has hosted our family Passover seder. It includes all the extended family, in-laws and some dear friends, not all Jewish.



For the past few years, my aunt has added an orange to the seder plate. The reason for that is here: http://hillel.myjewishlearning.com/h...214/Orange.htm



I was wondering: For those of you celebrating Passover, is this something you do or something you're interested in doing?

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#2 Old 03-30-2005, 12:46 PM
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Hey, that's neat!



I'm not Jewish, so my opinion probably doesn't matter, lol, but I think that's a really neat bit of symbolism. Of course I must confess I don't know much about the Jewish faith in general or Passover in particular....but, from what that article taught me and what little I DO know, I think it's pretty darn spiffy.



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#3 Old 03-30-2005, 01:02 PM
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Sometimes I wish my mom's family had stuck to Judaism, because I really like Jewish holidays. I like the sound of that new seder tradition too. If I was a practicing Jew, I'd totally do that.
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#4 Old 03-30-2005, 01:12 PM
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Most of us in my family aren't really practicing, either. We do the seder because it's actually the only thing about our Judaism that brings us all together (an excuse to get together!) Most of us don't even know Hebrew.

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#5 Old 03-30-2005, 01:44 PM
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I've never heard of this. Maybe I'll use the orange as a symbol of other marginalized groups of Jews as well--like vegans! The times I've held my own seder I always cut out a paper bone to use in place of the lamb shank on the seder plate.
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#6 Old 03-30-2005, 01:48 PM
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The times I've held my own seder I always cut out a paper bone to use in place of the lamb shank on the seder plate.



Not a bad idea!

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#7 Old 03-30-2005, 02:30 PM
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It's something I do.



I would like to add this:



From Jill Nagle's "Queer Naked Seder"



"In the name of respecting all sentient beings, tonight we have instead a blood orange, symbolizing the historical power of blood, in particular, women's cycle of life-giving bleeding. The orange also sits on the seder plate in honor of Jewish women leaders...."



She takes the feminist/equity in leadership statement and adds on the historical presence of the Goddess and animal rights.



After reading that, this year I'm going to use a blood orange.
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#8 Old 03-30-2005, 02:50 PM
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Well, I could suggest that to my aunt, but she's not THAT liberal...

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#9 Old 04-13-2006, 05:50 PM
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/bump



Because another Passover is here.

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#10 Old 04-14-2006, 02:39 AM
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I haven't heard about it before. I searched about this story in Hebrew and found out that the open house (gay\\lesbian center) in Israel uses a pink grapefruit.

I think it's a nice tradition if you make a more symbolic seder, but I probably wouldn't use it with my family.
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#11 Old 04-14-2006, 03:53 PM
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I'm not Jewish and don't celebrate Passover or hold a Seder, but I think faiths that are open to change are the ones that will remain strong.
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#12 Old 04-14-2006, 04:38 PM
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Passover signifies what the BIBLE says, and what God has ordained. I am a Jewish Believer, and follow the Old and New Testament. Yeshua the Messiah fulfilled the prophesy and many of the elements used at Seder symbolize what he taught at His Last Supper, which was the Passover, and his atonement for mankind's sins.



However I see some groups today trying to make Passover all about themselves. It is too bad that such a beautiful and meaningful holiday has to be tweaked to suit people's political agendas.



Maybe these people should come up with their own holiday to glorify themselves.
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#13 Old 04-15-2006, 02:48 AM
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Passover signifies what the BIBLE says, and what God has ordained. I am a Jewish Believer, and follow the Old and New Testament. Yeshua the Messiah fulfilled the prophesy and many of the elements used at Seder symbolize what he taught at His Last Supper, which was the Passover, and his atonement for mankind's sins.



However I see some groups today trying to make Passover all about themselves. It is too bad that such a beautiful and meaningful holiday has to be tweaked to suit people's political agendas.



Maybe these people should come up with their own holiday to glorify themselves.



yes, it's really terrible how some people try to make passover something that they can feel connected to. obviously, we should close our minds and push people away from their traditions. If people can't accept everything exactly the way one wants them to, they should just go away.



Passover is all about freedom. People don't turn this holiday to be on themselves, they just want to celebrate freedom as they think it should be in the world today.

I can't just get stucked in the story about God freeing "us" from Eygpt, I can't let it be all when talking about going from slavery to freedom. We should try to learn from every holiday and tradition something about the world we're living it. If a holiday can't connect to anything anymore, I probably wouldn't celebrate it. I don't have interest in something that has nothing to teach us, because than it's not a holiday but just an empty ritual.
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#14 Old 04-15-2006, 03:01 AM
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yes, it's really terrible how some people try to make passover something that they can feel connected to. obviously, we should close our minds and push people away from their traditions. If people can't accept everything exactly the way one wants them to, they should just go away.



Passover is all about freedom. People don't turn this holiday to be on themselves, they just want to celebrate freedom as they think it should be in the world today.

I can't just get stucked in the story about God freeing "us" from Eygpt, I can't let it be all when talking about going from slavery to freedom. We should try to learn from every holiday and tradition something about the world we're living it. If a holiday can't connect to anything anymore, I probably wouldn't celebrate it. I don't have interest in something that has nothing to teach us, because than it's not a holiday but just an empty ritual.

right on Neta.



We learned about the orange on the seder plate in hebrew school (or it may have been Ramah) a looong time ago. We've had one on table for the last 5 or 6 years. This year I wasn't able to come home for Passover so i don't really know what is on the plate.



Do ya'll do the beet for the shank and the flower for the egg? (All of those are 'symbols' of the past anyway, so why not allow symbols for the symbols?)
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#15 Old 04-16-2006, 10:25 PM
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Seder is fascinating to me. It's probably because I haven't been doing it every year since before I can remember, so there's a sense of newness. It deepens my sense of religious history when people share what they know of history and culture relating to the rituals. Some of my favorite "God moments" have been when that incredible sense washes over me, of being part of something much bigger and grander than anything I've ever seen. Honestly, that doesn't happen much when I'm doing the same things I've been doing my whole life. There's little mystery in that.



If a splash of newness or additional relevancy in symbols is what you need to rev up your spiritual life, go for it!



BTW, I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by posting in this thread, as I am not Jewish and could potentially be perceived as "the dreaded Christian." When I get excited about things, I like to share.

Q: How many poets does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1001...one to change the bulb, 1000 to say it's already been done.
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#16 Old 04-16-2006, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skylark View Post

If a splash of newness or additional relevancy in symbols is what you need to rev up your spiritual life, go for it!



Thanks!



Quote:
Originally Posted by skylark View Post

BTW, I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes by posting in this thread, as I am not Jewish and could potentially be perceived as "the dreaded Christian." When I get excited about things, I like to share.



I don't know about the others, but as the thread's OP, I welcome opinions from everybody.

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#17 Old 04-17-2006, 12:05 AM
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I see this holiday as remberence of my ancestors being enslaved and the Jewish Messiah being tortured and crucified, and the joy of being free from that bondage and having sins atoned.



"Observe the month of Abib and celebrate the Passover of the Lord your God because in the month of Abib, he brought you out of Egypt by night" Deut 16:5



"do this in rememberence of me" Luke 22:19b
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#18 Old 04-17-2006, 01:57 AM
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I'm sorry for jumping to something else, but I noticed the word "abib" in the quote from Deut. Does anybody know why this is the word? because the Hebrew word is "aviv".

(and also, in my bible it's deut 16:1)



btw Sharon, the next lines talk about sacrificing sheep and beef. Doesn't it bother you?
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#19 Old 04-17-2006, 08:24 AM
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Sharon: Not to insult your religious beliefs or anything, but 99% of the Jews on the planet don't believe in Jesus as their messiah, and therefore Jesus has absolutely nothing at all to do with their Passover observance.



I'm just saying.

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#20 Old 04-17-2006, 08:46 AM
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yes, it's really terrible how some people try to make passover something that they can feel connected to. obviously, we should close our minds and push people away from their traditions. If people can't accept everything exactly the way one wants them to, they should just go away.



Passover is all about freedom. People don't turn this holiday to be on themselves, they just want to celebrate freedom as they think it should be in the world today.

I can't just get stucked in the story about God freeing "us" from Eygpt, I can't let it be all when talking about going from slavery to freedom. We should try to learn from every holiday and tradition something about the world we're living it. If a holiday can't connect to anything anymore, I probably wouldn't celebrate it. I don't have interest in something that has nothing to teach us, because than it's not a holiday but just an empty ritual.



I am Christian and let me tell you, this is right on. What Sharon said rubbed me the wrong way...kind of making the OP out to be a bad guy and "out for herself". Thank you for your post.

And like Skylark, seder is fascinating to me
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#21 Old 04-17-2006, 09:34 AM
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The scripture says what it says, and I believe it is God's true word. The Jewish people started with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and I respect that and what the scriptures teach.



99% of the original believers in Yeshua were Jewish, and today it is the opposite because of many historical events. Sadly our people have been tortured and killed for our beliefs throughout history. It has turned Jew against Christian for the wrong reasons at that.



Sometimes people get offended when the truth is told. There is far too much evidence for me not to believe what is so apparant to me. Here's one site with scriptural reference. http://www.messianic-prophecy.net/



So I can't apologize for my beliefs and sharing what I know to be true. Sometimes it doesn't matter about stepping lightly or not, some people still get offended.



Quote:
I am Christian and let me tell you, this is right on. What Sharon said rubbed me the wrong way



Possibly how could respecting and following God's word rub a Christian the wrong way, unless what was said was unbiblical.
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#22 Old 04-17-2006, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon View Post


Possibly how could respecting and following God's word rub a Christian the wrong way, unless what was said was unbiblical.



Possibly the ignorant and abrasive way in which it was worded? I found it incredibly rude.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharon View Post


However I see some groups today trying to make Passover all about themselves. It is too bad that such a beautiful and meaningful holiday has to be tweaked to suit people's political agendas.



Maybe these people should come up with their own holiday to glorify themselves.

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#23 Old 04-17-2006, 12:16 PM
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I am Christian and let me tell you, this is right on. What Sharon said rubbed me the wrong way...kind of making the OP out to be a bad guy and "out for herself". Thank you for your post.

And like Skylark, seder is fascinating to me



thank you



and if you (and Skylark, and anyone else) found the seder to be fascinating, make yourself a guest at the next one. I'm sure a lot of families will be glad to add another chair to the table.
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#24 Old 04-17-2006, 12:32 PM
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Possibly the ignorant and abrasive way in which it was worded? I found it incredibly rude.



Nothing untrue about how people have been ignorant and abrasive when people choose to mess with the Almighty. Surely He takes offense to a holiday about freeing those who worship believe in Him into feminism and gay-rights.



And nothing personal against Amy, I was referring to the linked article.
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#25 Old 04-17-2006, 12:33 PM
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I'm a Christian that has always been facinated by Jewish customs and traditions. My uncle married a Jew in 1980. We celebrated Passover with her many years ago. She had an orange on the Seder plate, and has for a long time.



What's wrong with making a religious holiday personal? Wanting to connect to something isn't being selfish at all. If you can't connect to a holiday on a deep personal level, why even bother celebrating it?



Sharon, just because people don't celebrate Passover the way you do, doesn't make them bad people.



Ignorance is bliss huh?
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#26 Old 04-17-2006, 12:35 PM
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Ignorance is bliss huh?



Funny how "sensitive" people like to call other people ignorant.
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#27 Old 04-17-2006, 12:36 PM
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Sometimes people get offended when the truth is told.



sometimes people get offended when a belief is given to them as the truth.
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#28 Old 04-17-2006, 12:43 PM
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Surely He takes offense to a holiday about freeing those who worship believe in Him into feminism and gay-rights.



what makes you so sure?

I think God will be happy to find out that even though we managed to mess everything and create a very wrong world that treats gays, women and other minorities not as equals, we're trying to fix it by really listening to what we considered to be his (or her) words.
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#29 Old 04-17-2006, 01:25 PM
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Neta - I mean no disrespect here. Passover is by far my favorite holiday, I've celebrated it for 23 years before I came to the Messiah and 15 years with a Messianic perspective.



I have used many symbols on the plate that may represent different things. Many of the symbols, such as the afikomen being broken in half, wrapped in linen, hidden and found again out after the 3rd cup of wine is very symbolic of the Messiah to me. The unleavened bread takes on the appearance and symbolism of an unspoiled being who has been striped and pierced. The three matzohs wrapped in cloth is symbolic of a tri-une entity. These symbols where had no meaning to me when I celebrated Passover as a non-believer.



I understand that others may or may not share that view and I don't have a problem with that.



I am not protesting in any way that a certain fruit or vegetable be used, or a certain meat, bone or non-meat be used during the Seder.



I am not trying to "tell" others how to run their Seder.



I know that all seders are different, Jews are different, we are not all the same. You would probably see nothing untraditional at a Orthodox Seder, and many untraditional things at a Reformed Seder.



I just have an issue, and I feel it is scriptural, and not only my own view, that when symbolism other than the Lord, or the original reason for the meaning Passover is changed in such a way, it isn't right.



I feel that I have a right to express my view as Amy asked. And Amy, I appreciate that you have not called me or my views ignorant even though you may strongly disagree.



I am not asking anyone to agree, but I appreciate those who allowed me my view.
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#30 Old 04-17-2006, 02:12 PM
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I'm ignoring Sharon's posts because I don't even know how to respond, but back to the original topic...



This year I went to a vegan seder. They had the orange on the seder plate, as well as an avocado in place of the egg and a parsnip in place of the lamb shank. That worked for me! They also added something to the Haggadah they found off the internet about the significance of vegetarianism to Passover.
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