An orange on the seder plate? - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 04-17-2006, 08:34 PM
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I'm ignoring Sharon's posts because I don't even know how to respond, but back to the original topic...

Yep, Sharon just made it onto my ignore list,too. Congratulations, not a lot of people do that. But raging intolerance and towering arrogance are two of the few things that *I* don't tolerate.
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#32 Old 04-17-2006, 09:49 PM
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Aw... sorry you feel that way
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#33 Old 04-17-2006, 11:41 PM
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Well, I'm highly disappointed in some posts in this thread. If you can't stick to the topic of how cool Seder is and tweaking it to make it more personal, it would probably be better to start your own thread.



Neta, thanks for the invite! I suppose if I show up completely unannounced, I get Elijah's chair? I suppose that depends on how traditional they are. Actually, I've participated in three Seders and am always looking for more. I wanted to go to this one Wednesday evening, but alas, I had a township trustee meeting I absolutely had to go to for work. Silly people who adjust their meeting dates/times for Christian holidays but not Jewish ones. Even if they're just appreciating Jewish holidays because of their connection with Christian theology and not for the sake of understanding, it'd be better than ignoring.



Next year. (In Jerusalem?)

Q: How many poets does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1001...one to change the bulb, 1000 to say it's already been done.
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#34 Old 04-18-2006, 01:23 AM
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Neta - I mean no disrespect here. Passover is by far my favorite holiday, I've celebrated it for 23 years before I came to the Messiah and 15 years with a Messianic perspective.



I have used many symbols on the plate that may represent different things. Many of the symbols, such as the afikomen being broken in half, wrapped in linen, hidden and found again out after the 3rd cup of wine is very symbolic of the Messiah to me. The unleavened bread takes on the appearance and symbolism of an unspoiled being who has been striped and pierced. The three matzohs wrapped in cloth is symbolic of a tri-une entity. These symbols where had no meaning to me when I celebrated Passover as a non-believer.



I understand that others may or may not share that view and I don't have a problem with that.



I am not protesting in any way that a certain fruit or vegetable be used, or a certain meat, bone or non-meat be used during the Seder.



I am not trying to "tell" others how to run their Seder.



I know that all seders are different, Jews are different, we are not all the same. You would probably see nothing untraditional at a Orthodox Seder, and many untraditional things at a Reformed Seder.



I just have an issue, and I feel it is scriptural, and not only my own view, that when symbolism other than the Lord, or the original reason for the meaning Passover is changed in such a way, it isn't right.



I feel that I have a right to express my view as Amy asked. And Amy, I appreciate that you have not called me or my views ignorant even though you may strongly disagree.



I am not asking anyone to agree, but I appreciate those who allowed me my view.





Sharon, I must say it just looks like you want us to accept the fact that you don't accept other traditions. It's really wierd to me that you're discribing all these changes in the seder as something less connected to the original tradition, when you're the only one I've ever heard that connects "the Messiah" to passover.



btw, both orthodox and reformed seders will be different than what I know. I always attend a secular seder.
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#35 Old 04-18-2006, 01:30 AM
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Neta, thanks for the invite! I suppose if I show up completely unannounced, I get Elijah's chair? I suppose that depends on how traditional they are. Actually, I've participated in three Seders and am always looking for more. I wanted to go to this one Wednesday evening, but alas, I had a township trustee meeting I absolutely had to go to for work. Silly people who adjust their meeting dates/times for Christian holidays but not Jewish ones. Even if they're just appreciating Jewish holidays because of their connection with Christian theology and not for the sake of understanding, it'd be better than ignoring.



Next year. (In Jerusalem?)



I guess Elijah wouldn't mind, he never show up anyway but there are some holidays that are better for coming unannounced. The mimuna is coming up, but I don't even know if it's celebrated over the sea..



Next year in Jerusalem works for me
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#36 Old 04-18-2006, 09:33 AM
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Sharon, I must say it just looks like you want us to accept the fact that you don't accept other traditions. It's really wierd to me that you're discribing all these changes in the seder as something less connected to the original tradition, when you're the only one I've ever heard that connects "the Messiah" to passover.



btw, both orthodox and reformed seders will be different than what I know. I always attend a secular seder.



Well I'm just sharing my views on how I feel about it. It doesn't make a huge difference about oranges or whatever being added to the plate. I guess my beliefs differ in that I take a more scriptural meaning to it.



And it does make a world of difference if you are observing the Passover from a secular viewpoint.



Sorry to be the big trubble-maker, lol. Looks like my passion about the subject ended up being the object of other's judgement, but no surprise here.
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#37 Old 04-18-2006, 07:42 PM
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Well I'm just sharing my views on how I feel about it. It doesn't make a huge difference about oranges or whatever being added to the plate. I guess my beliefs differ in that I take a more scriptural meaning to it.



And it does make a world of difference if you are observing the Passover from a secular viewpoint.



Sorry to be the big trubble-maker, lol. Looks like my passion about the subject ended up being the object of other's judgement, but no surprise here.



It would just be nice for once if people who are not Christian could have a discussion of their traditions without someone bringing Christianity into it. I grow weary of it at times. I'm not closed-minded, I'm just sick of it in my face all the time, even in a Jewish-themed thread.



As for "taking a more scriptural meaning to it," I don't know what that means exactly because of poor wording, but if you mean that your beliefs are based on scripture and that the beliefs of Jews who bring new traditions to the Passover seder are not based on scripture, that's a pretty rigid view of scripture. Throughout history, the rabbis have discussed and debated the validity of different interpretations of scripture and there are a variety of traditional practices when it comes to how to observe Passover. For instance, most Ashkenazi Jews keep kosher for Passover by eliminating not only leavening and things made with flour from their diets for the week, but also legumes, rice and corn. Sephardic Jews, however, eat legumes, rice and corn on Passover. Is one tradition interpreting scripture incorrectly? Some might think so, but I see it as interpreting scripture differently and choosing to base a tradition on that interpretation. Scripture is not inert--it's a living entity to many people, something that is always open to discussion and interpretation. It sometimes changes over time as well.



And then of course there is the fact that the vast majority of the world's Jews don't believe the messiah has arrived, so to them (including myself) your discussion of a messianic view of Passover is moot. To them, the New Testament isn't part of scripture, so your interpretation of Passover would not be based on scripture.



Looks like I couldn't ignore this after all. Sorry for making this into a debate. Those of you who just wanted to have a nice discussion of the orange on the seder plate (as I once did) can ignore this message too!
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#38 Old 04-18-2006, 11:52 PM
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For instance, most Ashkenazi Jews keep kosher for Passover by eliminating not only leavening and things made with flour from their diets for the week, but also legumes, rice and corn. Sephardic Jews, however, eat legumes, rice and corn on Passover. Is one tradition interpreting scripture incorrectly?



in this case, it's not really about interpreting the scripture. there are some explanations for this tradition. some talk about the fear of mixing legumes with hametz since it's usually cooked together, some say it's because the grains and the legumes are similar in their looks and kept together in storage so it might get mixed there, and some claim it's because you can make flour from legumes.

oh, and there are some who don't eat peanuts as well.
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#39 Old 04-19-2006, 06:39 PM
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It would just be nice for once if people who are not Christian could have a discussion of their traditions without someone bringing Christianity into it. I grow weary of it at times. I'm not closed-minded, I'm just sick of it in my face all the time, even in a Jewish-themed thread.



As for "taking a more scriptural meaning to it," I don't know what that means exactly because of poor wording, but if you mean that your beliefs are based on scripture and that the beliefs of Jews who bring new traditions to the Passover seder are not based on scripture, that's a pretty rigid view of scripture. Throughout history, the rabbis have discussed and debated the validity of different interpretations of scripture and there are a variety of traditional practices when it comes to how to observe Passover. For instance, most Ashkenazi Jews keep kosher for Passover by eliminating not only leavening and things made with flour from their diets for the week, but also legumes, rice and corn. Sephardic Jews, however, eat legumes, rice and corn on Passover. Is one tradition interpreting scripture incorrectly? Some might think so, but I see it as interpreting scripture differently and choosing to base a tradition on that interpretation. Scripture is not inert--it's a living entity to many people, something that is always open to discussion and interpretation. It sometimes changes over time as well.



And then of course there is the fact that the vast majority of the world's Jews don't believe the messiah has arrived, so to them (including myself) your discussion of a messianic view of Passover is moot. To them, the New Testament isn't part of scripture, so your interpretation of Passover would not be based on scripture.





Perhaps had I expressed my views without revealing that I am Messianic it may not have been taken the way it was. Maybe I would have just appeared as someone's Grandma Bubby before burying a fork after they used it incorrectly.



By scriptural I was referring to the Tenach. and was specifically referring to the history of Passover and how the Jewish people were asked to observe it. I know that tradition has changed, but not scripture itself as we know that it was copied very meticulously by scribes throughout the ages.



Yes, I realize what you mean by the different traditions and ways to observe the feast. I grew up going to Seders chanted in Yiddush and/or Russian and then waiting to get pointed at to ask the four questions, and being answered by more chanting. At least the next Seder would be at our house in English and Hebrew. I would help my mother retrieve an extra 2 sets of meat & dairy Passover dishes from above the fridge every year, and she was the one who didn't keep rice and legumes or anything else that "puffed up" except for lots and lots of eggs. But the traditions always kept to the orginal intent.



But you are correct, as my opinion means nothing here, as Neta has pointed out that she celebrates a secular seder, so I am assuming others in this thread may be doing the same.



I was going to stop posting here but did happen upon this thread again and saw someone responding to me. But I will stop now so you all can get back to the discussion. Looks like we have 2 more days until Passover's over and maybe there'll be some more folks who can add their experiences.



Over and out.
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#40 Old 04-20-2006, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Neta558 View Post

in this case, it's not really about interpreting the scripture. there are some explanations for this tradition. some talk about the fear of mixing legumes with hametz since it's usually cooked together, some say it's because the grains and the legumes are similar in their looks and kept together in storage so it might get mixed there, and some claim it's because you can make flour from legumes.

oh, and there are some who don't eat peanuts as well.



But the idea of eating "unleavened bread" comes from the biblical reference in Exodus to Jews not having enough time in the desert for their bread to rise. My point was that a variety of traditions have developed over the ages for a variety of reasons of how best to commemorate that biblical event. So it does have a scriptural basis.
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#41 Old 04-21-2006, 05:28 PM
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sometimes people get offended when a belief is given to them as the truth.

*high five*
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