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#1 Old 04-26-2012, 04:10 PM
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'Dining while black' a real thing; 'table side racism' study shows waitstaff give African-Americans poorer service

\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\t\tWaitstaff admits giving black diners lousy service based on belief that they're poor tippers



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New evidence of racist restaurant waitstaff may leave a bad taste in the mouths of African-American diners.
\tAfter polling 200 servers in 18 North Carolina restaurants, researchers found that a shocking 38.5% discriminated against black customers.
\tWaiters admitted that they often gave them poorer service, based on their expectations that black diners would be poor tippers, demanding and rude.
\tSarah Rusche, a Ph.D. candidate in sociology at North Carolina State, called it a situation of dining while black.



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Black diners reported having to be asked to wait unreasonable amounts of time for a table and even to be refused service.
\tSome diners reported that they were mistaken for valet parkers, coat checks and bathroom attendants.





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#2 Old 04-26-2012, 06:40 PM
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i don't give much of my time to tables full of foreigners because 99% of the time, they never tip at all, not even poorly. does that mean i hate foreigners? no, just means i'm not going to put much time into tables i know i'm going to end up losing money on. when you don't tip, i still have to tip out the kitchen, the bussers and the runners on your table. so a table full of drunk australians is going to cost me, personally, out of my money, 15$ when they leave me nothing. you've got to prioritize when you're responsible for 100 other drunks for 12 - 16 hours a day. i'm never rude, i never assume black people are coatchecks (what the **** is that about?), but i'm quick, pick up their orders, drop them off quick, etc. i'm just not personable. i introduce myself, list off the specials, get their drinks and move on. i've got to cut corners where i can, and that's nothing personal, that's just the job. black women are also more... hostile towards me than others are, and sometimes are astonishingly rude to me first. my top five worst waitress experiences in my entire (almost!!! ****!) 10 years of waiting tables have all been black women. black women have driven me to drink on the job, burst into tears, throw money on their table and quit my job on the spot. that doesn't mean all black women are ****ty tippers.

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#3 Old 04-26-2012, 06:42 PM
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why did VB bleep out my !!! marks???? can i only use three in a row? !!!!!!!!!!!!

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#4 Old 04-26-2012, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenickie View Post

i don't give much of my time to tables full of foreigners because 99% of the time, they never tip at all, not even poorly. does that mean i hate foreigners? no, just means i'm not going to put much time into tables i know i'm going to end up losing money on. when you don't tip, i still have to tip out the kitchen, the bussers and the runners on your table. so a table full of drunk australians is going to cost me, personally, out of my money, 15$ when they leave me nothing. you've got to prioritize when you're responsible for 100 other drunks for 12 - 16 hours a day. i'm never rude, i never assume black people are coatchecks (what the **** is that about?), but i'm quick, pick up their orders, drop them off quick, etc. i'm just not personable. i introduce myself, list off the specials, get their drinks and move on. i've got to cut corners where i can, and that's nothing personal, that's just the job. black women are also more... hostile towards me than others are, and sometimes are astonishingly rude to me first. my top five worst waitress experiences in my entire (almost!!! ****!) 10 years of waiting tables have all been black women. black women have driven me to drink on the job, burst into tears, throw money on their table and quit my job on the spot. that doesn't mean all black women are ****ty tippers.

That's interesting. Do you think they see you as competition or something?

I also don't put as much time into dealing with foreigners. I've never had one tip me. Like you, I'm not rude, I just don't chat and "work it".

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#5 Old 04-26-2012, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenickie View Post

why did VB bleep out my !!! marks???? can i only use three in a row? !!!!!!!!!!!!

VB is apparently programmed to "bleep out" most of the "Carlin Seven" dirty words, replacing them with asterisks.
This came up in a thread started by ElaineV about possibly bleeping the words "retard" and "retarded."

Feel free to PM me with whatever you want to say, if that would help.

George Carlin's Seven Dirty Words

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The big seven words you weren't allowed to broadcast were: ****, Piss, ****, ****, ********er, Mother****er and Tits.

http://www.erenkrantz.com/Humor/SevenDirtyWords.shtml

Compare the above "quote" with what is written on the erenkrantz site.

BTW, it appears that the main motive for the "bleeping" is that otherwise VB would be blocked to many people trying to access it from work or possibly from school.
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#6 Old 04-26-2012, 10:17 PM
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So what's going on here? Being black? Being a black diner? Foreigners? What?
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#7 Old 04-26-2012, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenickie View Post

i'm just not personable. i introduce myself, list off the specials, get their drinks and move on. i've got to cut corners where i can, and that's nothing personal, that's just the job.

For some reason, most waiters and waitresses NEVER introduce themselves anymore. They show up at my table and ask what I want. Usually, I end my list by saying: "Oh, one other thing--your name."

This contrasts with the stereotypical '80s behavior, where a perky waiter would show up at your table and the first thing he would say would be, "Hi, I'm Steve, and I'll be your waiter today."
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#8 Old 04-26-2012, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by paperhanger View Post

So what's going on here? Being black? Being a black diner? Foreigners? What?

Kenickie was basically saying that much of the apparently discriminatory behavior could be explained by rational self-interest on the part of wait-staff rather than racial animosity.
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#9 Old 04-26-2012, 10:45 PM
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I was a food server for a year and I noticed that food servers are extremely prejudiced. I can't tell you how many times I heard "[___] people are bad tippers" without any real evidence.
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#10 Old 04-26-2012, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe View Post

For some reason, most waiters and waitresses NEVER introduce themselves anymore. They show up at my table and ask what I want. Usually, I end my list by saying: "Oh, one other thing--your name."

This contrasts with the stereotypical '80s behavior, where a perky waiter would show up at your table and the first thing he would say would be, "Hi, I'm Steve, and I'll be your waiter today."

I grew up in a wait-staff environment and always believed, as Tony Bourdain put it, that "if I want to know your ****ing name, I'll ask for it." That's what name-tags are for. Most people go to restaurants to eat, not to make friends with the staff. The exceptions are lechers, etc.

Regarding your comment on Kenickie's post, all I can say is, if you don't want to do the job, then don't take the job. Everyones' work sucks for some reason. To do less than your best at any work is disingenuous, lazy, and disgraceful.
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#11 Old 04-26-2012, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by ElaineV View Post

I was a food server for a year and I noticed that food servers are extremely prejudiced. I can't tell you how many times I heard "[___] people are bad tippers" without any real evidence.

So, as a food server, you were extremely prejudiced?
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#12 Old 04-26-2012, 11:10 PM
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#13 Old 04-26-2012, 11:50 PM
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There is a huge difference between the US and Europe when it comes to tipping. I don't know whether it is because of the way the total bill is calculated ( VAT is included) and the employees salary is paid by the Restaurant.

http://www.thesite.org/homelawandmon...trightsthebill

I have been to the States many times and as a European, I must admit I don't feel comfortable with the tipping system. I have queried a few people over it and the information seems a bit conflicting.
When I pay the full fare for a shuttle service, I don't really understand it when you get frowned at because the tip isn't 'enough' !!!!
I also remember an incident at Lindy's in New York where the waitress demanded her tip. She was Scottish by the way and certainly did it an a very abrupt manner !

This never happens in Europe because you simply don't have to tip. It is not regarded as rude if for whatever reason you do not do so.

If staff in restaurants rely on tips why don't they get a higher salary ?

Overhere in France where you don't have to tip, it is customary to tip cinema usherettes. On the other hand if you order a cup of coffee in a bar, you wouldn't leave a tip. So different countries do have different customs.

I found some of the comments on the following article most interesting and it also proves that people do really have wide views on tipping.

http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.c...eign-tourists/
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#14 Old 04-27-2012, 12:07 AM
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It seems to be discrimintory behaviour of staff to certain groups of customers could be avoided with a more sensible tipping system, ie: the staff all get paid in full, and tipping is not mandetory, but I guess you can't change culture just like that.It seems odd to me, as a brit, that tipping a certain amount is expected - it isn't a tip then is it? It's just a sneaky extra charge.

I understand that in the real world, waiting staff work very hard, and so a tendency to give better service to better tippers is natrual (especially when, as I understand it, tips contribute towards paying minimum wage so they aren't really tips at all? unless I got that wrong from another thread?), but as a non-waiting staff in a country with a very different tipping systems, it seems pretty awful to assume people are going to be unpleasent and so to give them worse service based on their race/nationality.

It seems like a cycle, "x are bad tippers, so I give them worse service" "they gave me bad service(just because of my x), why should I tip?".
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#15 Old 04-27-2012, 12:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Identity_thief View Post

It seems to be discrimintory behaviour of staff to certain groups of customers could be avoided with a more sensible tipping system, ie: the staff all get paid in full, and tipping is not mandetory, but I guess you can't change culture just like that.It seems odd to me, as a brit, that tipping a certain amount is expected - it isn't a tip then is it? It's just a sneaky extra charge.

I understand that in the real world, waiting staff work very hard, and so a tendency to give better service to better tippers is natrual (especially when, as I understand it, tips contribute towards paying minimum wage so they aren't really tips at all? unless I got that wrong from another thread?), but as a non-waiting staff in a country with a very different tipping systems, it seems pretty awful to assume people are going to be unpleasent and so to give them worse service based on their race/nationality.

It seems like a cycle, "x are bad tippers, so I give them worse service" "they gave me bad service(just because of my x), why should I tip?".

That is also what I omitted to say and I fully agree.

How do you define a tip ? If it has to be a given amount when it isn't compulsary why does it have to be 15% ? If you consider the service given was average, what's wrong with 8% ?
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#16 Old 04-27-2012, 12:22 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-qV9wVGb38

Swears and stuff, you know.

My tipping habits: I tip in restaurants if the service isn't added, I'll tip a little bit if it is. People I don't always tip (hairdressers, delivery guys), I'll overtip when I get around to tipping next time around. I reckon I'll overtip if I ever go to the US now, to compensate for the other foreigners. I don't tip bad service well. I'll often end up paying more than I should when other people don't tip enough. Boo.

I could do with tips, if I get a tip, it goes to my charity, booooo.
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#17 Old 04-27-2012, 02:16 AM
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Please forgive me if this is discombobulated. I'm hopped up on percosets right now. :\\

Ok, I have to say that having bartended for 3 years, there is some truth to a lot of the stereotypes you hear. As a bartender in a major city, it was often said (and often true) that certain groups of people did not tip as well (or at all) as other groups of individuals. For example, in the gay community, it's a pretty well known stereotype that lesbians do not tip and if they do, it's usually less than the standard.

Have I found this, in my experience, to be true? Generally, yes.
Did that change how I served them? Yes.

It made me work harder to make them feel like I deserved more money! To me, it makes absolutely no sense to go into a situation with that stereotype and create a self-fulfilling prophecy for myself so I do not use those stereotypes to judge my personal interactions with the people of said stereotype. And guess what? It works. In fact, it became a running joke and they would staff me, obviously a male, at every lesbian party and nicknamed me "Home Depot" because the "lesbians loved me like they love Home Depot".

Bartenders also, I've noticed, tend to treat black customers with the same stereotype described above by waiters. But again, I've found that these bartenders go into the interaction expecting no tip, giving poor service, and then feeling justified in their initial opinion that they weren't going to get a tip. Do the bartenders in general make less money during a black gay pride event than say another non-specifically-black party? Usually, but I would venture to guess that at least half of that lies with the fault of the bartenders who aren't expecting a good tip and unintentionally/subconcsiously give piss poor service.

So, I guess while stereotypes can be said to have a basis in reality, stereotypes are not good predictors of the future.

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#18 Old 04-27-2012, 02:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyvas View Post

There is a huge difference between the US and Europe when it comes to tipping. I don't know whether it is because of the way the total bill is calculated ( VAT is included) and the employees salary is paid by the Restaurant.

http://www.thesite.org/homelawandmon...trightsthebill

I have been to the States many times and as a European, I must admit I don't feel comfortable with the tipping system. I have queried a few people over it and the information seems a bit conflicting.
When I pay the full fare for a shuttle service, I don't really understand it when you get frowned at because the tip isn't 'enough' !!!!
I also remember an incident at Lindy's in New York where the waitress demanded her tip. She was Scottish by the way and certainly did it an a very abrupt manner !

This never happens in Europe because you simply don't have to tip. It is not regarded as rude if for whatever reason you do not do so.

If staff in restaurants rely on tips why don't they get a higher salary ?

Overhere in France where you don't have to tip, it is customary to tip cinema usherettes. On the other hand if you order a cup of coffee in a bar, you wouldn't leave a tip. So different countries do have different customs.

I found some of the comments on the following article most interesting and it also proves that people do really have wide views on tipping.

http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.c...eign-tourists/

As a patron of a restaurant or a bar, you are basically 'subsidizing' the waitstaff's pay with your tip. Most restaurants and bars usually pay their staff below the minimum wage in the US (as a bartender, I was paid $2.83/hour) and so these people rely on the tips as the primary source of their income.

If the establishment were to pay their waitstaff a decent wage, it would still come out of your pocket and probably at a higher rate. They would figure the cost of the staff into the prices of the menu items and bar options.

In the US, it is definitely considered rude to not tip. If you sat at my table for an hour and didn't tip, I got paid less than $2.83 (due to taxes) for the service I provided you. That's hardly a living wage and so it's made up for in tips. The standard tip in the US is between 15-20% for a waiter and $1/per drink for a bartender and this is given for adequate service. If you were pleased with your service, you should give the full 20% to the waiter or throw in an extra dollar for the bartender.

However, no waiter of bartender should ever demand their tip. That automatically voids the gratuity in my opinion except in rare cases where you know you've received service that is above and beyond what anyone else in the restaurant has been given. For example, if you show up under a reservation of two and then it suddenly becomes 10 and you're working the poor server to death.

In my opinion, if you (in the US) don't have money to tip or pay the cover, you shouldn't be going out at all. Nothing bothers me more than people who come out to the clubs, bars, and restaurants and complain about spending money. If you don't have it to spend, then don't go out.

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#19 Old 04-27-2012, 02:33 AM
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I'm shocked by some of this. Profiling?
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#20 Old 04-27-2012, 03:48 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyvas View Post

There is a huge difference between the US and Europe when it comes to tipping. I don't know whether it is because of the way the total bill is calculated ( VAT is included) and the employees salary is paid by the Restaurant.

http://www.thesite.org/homelawandmon...trightsthebill

I have been to the States many times and as a European, I must admit I don't feel comfortable with the tipping system. I have queried a few people over it and the information seems a bit conflicting.
When I pay the full fare for a shuttle service, I don't really understand it when you get frowned at because the tip isn't 'enough' !!!!
I also remember an incident at Lindy's in New York where the waitress demanded her tip. She was Scottish by the way and certainly did it an a very abrupt manner !

This never happens in Europe because you simply don't have to tip. It is not regarded as rude if for whatever reason you do not do so.

If staff in restaurants rely on tips why don't they get a higher salary ?

Overhere in France where you don't have to tip, it is customary to tip cinema usherettes. On the other hand if you order a cup of coffee in a bar, you wouldn't leave a tip. So different countries do have different customs.

I found some of the comments on the following article most interesting and it also proves that people do really have wide views on tipping.

http://dinersjournal.blogs.nytimes.c...eign-tourists/

I was just thinking how tipping is very much a cultural thing, and minorities not tipping might be more a reflection of their background and upbringing. When I went to England a few years back with a friend of mine, we didn't realize until we went out for dinner with a friend who was a native that tipping is not mandatory, because they pay their waitstaff more as a base pay. No wonder the waitstaff we had was so pleased with us!

On the flip side, in some cultures, tipping is not just seen as optional, but it can be seen as downright insulting. To some cultures, it implies that they are basically charity cases who NEED tips because they can't survive without it.

All that being said, it's very important to research the local tipping customs for wherever you live, so that you aren't rude or insulting.
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#21 Old 04-27-2012, 04:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyvas View Post

Overhere in France where you don't have to tip, it is customary to tip cinema usherettes. On the other hand if you order a cup of coffee in a bar, you wouldn't leave a tip. So different countries do have different customs.

Really? That is weird. When I first went to France I remember being really confused as to why there was a woman standing in the toilets staring at me as I didn't realise I was supposed to tip her.

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Originally Posted by GingerFoxx View Post

When I went to England a few years back with a friend of mine, we didn't realize until we went out for dinner with a friend who was a native that tipping is not mandatory, because they pay their waitstaff more as a base pay. No wonder the waitstaff we had was so pleased with us!

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#22 Old 04-27-2012, 05:32 AM
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You're still supposed to tip in the UK, unless service charge is included. Seriously, I hate going out to dinner with people who think you don't or think 50p is enough. They definitely get paid more here than in the US but it's not like the continent where you don't really need to tip.

Actually saying that, I had a conversation with a Parisian waiter once. We told him that our friends had told us that you didn't need to tip in France, he said that our friend was cheap

Tipping in restaurants in the UK is a lot like tipping in restaurants in the US except you might not need to give quite so much.
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#23 Old 04-27-2012, 05:51 AM
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Seriously, I hate going out to dinner with people who think you don't or think 50p is enough.

Yes, and then you have to give more money yourself to make up for them. I've known people like that.
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#24 Old 04-27-2012, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by paperhanger View Post

So, as a food server, you were extremely prejudiced?

It was kinda meant as a joke. We were talking about prejudice based on race so I just flipped it and talked about prejudiced based on profession.

But to answer your question... Actually yes. Biases I had (prior to that employment) about certain groups (men in particular) were strengthened.
Waiting tables is hard work and it's easy to feel abused. If you have any underlying prejudices (warranted or non) then they tend to get deeper embedded during that job. For me, it just took one or two negative experiences to paint all seemingly similar people in the same light. For example, one or two complete ******* men made me more wary of all men.
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#25 Old 04-27-2012, 06:25 AM
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Originally Posted by yally View Post

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-qV9wVGb38

Swears and stuff, you know.

My tipping habits: I tip in restaurants if the service isn't added, I'll tip a little bit if it is. People I don't always tip (hairdressers, delivery guys), I'll overtip when I get around to tipping next time around. I reckon I'll overtip if I ever go to the US now, to compensate for the other foreigners. I don't tip bad service well. I'll often end up paying more than I should when other people don't tip enough. Boo.

I could do with tips, if I get a tip, it goes to my charity, booooo.

LOL, this was the first thing that came to mind when I started reading this thread.

About the foreigner thing... yeah I waited on a Canadian family about 25 years ago, they sucked, and yeah I still remember it. Mom, Dad and two little kids made a huge mess, crap on the floor, table and booth was a disaster, pricks left me a Canadian dollar for a tip.
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#26 Old 04-27-2012, 11:21 AM
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I think theres the stereotype going around that black people generally don't tip as generously. Unfortunately it's true in some cases. A couple of my family members are stingy about it, although my parents have always told me 20% was standard. and 10-15% for poor service.
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#27 Old 04-27-2012, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by paperhanger View Post

Everyones' work sucks for some reason. To do less than your best at any work is disingenuous, lazy, and disgraceful.

This.

"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
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#28 Old 04-27-2012, 11:56 AM
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I've been to bars/night clubs with black men on a few occasionas, and they were always good tippers.

Does that mean they were over-compensating?

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#29 Old 04-27-2012, 12:00 PM
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How about nobody tips anybody, and employers actually pay minimum wage+ to their employees?
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#30 Old 04-27-2012, 12:23 PM
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How about nobody tips anybody, and employers actually pay minimum wage+ to their employees?

That would probably raise the price of the food.
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