Euthanasia ?? - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 11-14-2010, 07:57 AM
Newbie
 
Iam2cool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 71
When an animal is too sick, we put it to sleep and call that HUMANE. When a human is too sick and REQUESTS to be put to sleep, we call that INHUMANE. Can someone please make me understand this? I am very confused.
Iam2cool is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 11-14-2010, 08:00 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,160
We feel morally responsible for ending an animal's suffering because we know that animal cannot make the choice for themselves, and doesn't have the cognition to think "if I die now, my suffering will end, so I want to die". With humans, the other person in their normal state is capable of making an informed decision. When they are in a vegetative state we know that before the coma, they were capable of deciding, and they might have wanted to live for the chance of regaining consciousness. Therefore we often feel that it is our responsibility to end an animal's suffering, but it is not our decision to end another person's.
Earthling is offline  
#3 Old 11-14-2010, 08:04 AM
Veggie Regular
 
smob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,846
I think people should be able to request euthanasia as part of an advance directive. That's just me though.
smob is offline  
#4 Old 11-14-2010, 08:11 AM
Veggie Regular
 
delicioso's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,945
Many people believe that if you commit suicide, you go to hell. God takes you, when he's ready, and you must endure the suffering until then.

Others worry that some sick people would feel pressured to request death, because they feel they're a burden. (So they don't want the option for anyone).

Doctors quietly euthanize people every day, though, by giving a little too much morphine. Thank goodness. It would be nice if it were legal, the norm, and we could have death planners, like we have wedding planners.
delicioso is offline  
#5 Old 11-14-2010, 08:16 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Pixie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 5,658
I think euthanasia should be allowed by law. I used to have contact with hospice patients through my job and I think people should be given the right and dignity to decide if they want to end their life.
Pixie is offline  
#6 Old 11-14-2010, 08:16 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
What I always say is that we should be more restrictive with non-human euthanasia and more permissive with human euthanasia. And not because I would have some kind of an anti-human agenda but because the scale of quality of life vs. life as such is in imbalance in both cases.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#7 Old 11-14-2010, 04:20 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 3,641
People should be able to control the direction of their own life. If they don't want to live, I respect that. Yes, absolutely yes, if they want to die an easy and comfortable death, they should have that right. The worst thing possible is when people take their own life and it ends up very painful or extensive. No one ever asked to be born. The least we can do is make it easy to get them out of a bad situation if that's what they want.
sleepydvdr is offline  
#8 Old 11-14-2010, 04:34 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Scorpius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Pluto (the planet)
Posts: 6,741
Quote:
Originally Posted by smob View Post

I think people should be able to request euthanasia as part of an advance directive. That's just me though.

Can't someone do that if they have a living will made up in advance for if/when that becomes necessary?

"you know, nowhere in the bible does it say that jesus was not a raptor"


www.animal-adoptions.org

Scorpius is offline  
#9 Old 11-14-2010, 10:16 PM
Newbie
 
coffee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 76
In the US, it is legal in WA and OR.

I know that in WA, however, the patient has to be able to administer the medication on their own. It's assisted suicide.
coffee is offline  
#10 Old 11-14-2010, 10:46 PM
Newbie
 
Skeezix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iam2cool View Post

When an animal is too sick, we put it to sleep and call that HUMANE. When a human is too sick and REQUESTS to be put to sleep, we call that INHUMANE. Can someone please make me understand this? I am very confused.

Most animals are euthanized when they are neither terminally ill nor suffering. Human motives most often involve the increased expense and work that can accompany the chronic conditions aging animals develop. Cats that miss the litter box. Dogs that snap at owners when surprised. Expensive medical treatments. Failing hearing and eyesight. They're slower and less responsive to us .
Skeezix is offline  
#11 Old 11-14-2010, 10:46 PM
Veggie Regular
 
smob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpius View Post

Can't someone do that if they have a living will made up in advance for if/when that becomes necessary?

Can someone request to be euthanized? No.
smob is offline  
#12 Old 11-15-2010, 06:59 AM
Tom
Veggie Regular
 
Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 5,205
As an agnostic, the idea of oblivion/annihilation for an innocent sentient being scares me, but so does protracted extreme distress with no prospect of relief or recovery. Instead of expanding euthanasia to include humans as well as animals, I want good hospice-type options available for animals as well as humans:

http://www.pethospice.org/

I don't know how to address the issue of someone who explicitly requests death. On the one hand, it is their life. On the other hand, it would be awful if someone requested their own demise because they did not want to be a burden to someone else. Frankly, I'm also afraid that to affirm someone else's right to a "dignified death" might be misinterpreted to mean it is what I myself would want.

But yeah- what Skeezix posted above. I doubt the practice of euthanasia would be so rampantly applied to animals if animals were valued more.

Peasant (1963-1972) and Fluffy (1970s?-1982- I think of you as 'Ambrose' now)- Your spirits outshone some humans I have known. Be happy forever.
Tom is offline  
#13 Old 11-15-2010, 07:29 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Nishani's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 7,577
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpius View Post

Can't someone do that if they have a living will made up in advance for if/when that becomes necessary?

You can get palliative care which is basically Morphine and a bunch of other drugs which will send you off to your death in a painless haze if you have a condition that justifies it, but unfortunately, at this point in time, you can't request euthanasia. I really wish you could, because as a nurse, there's been plenty of times when a patient has looked into my eyes and said in desperation "nurse, please kill me" and I can't legally do anything to help them.

m8itcanw8.com
Nishani is offline  
#14 Old 11-15-2010, 07:30 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Scorpius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Pluto (the planet)
Posts: 6,741
Quote:
Originally Posted by smob View Post

Can someone request to be euthanized? No.

They can request to have life support removed, which achieves the same goal.

"you know, nowhere in the bible does it say that jesus was not a raptor"


www.animal-adoptions.org

Scorpius is offline  
#15 Old 11-15-2010, 08:31 AM
Newbie
 
Skeezix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpius View Post

They can request to have life support removed, which achieves the same goal.

This. ^

The law already permits patients or their surrogates to withhold or withdraw unwanted medical treatment even if that increases the likelihood that the patient will die. No one needs to be hooked up to machines against their will.
Skeezix is offline  
#16 Old 11-15-2010, 09:18 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Beancounter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,339
In general I think people should be able to choose whether to live or die.

However, this right could be abused by others, and would have to be strictly controlled and documented.

Happiness is not the result of a mathematical equation comparing the good times and bad times someone has had. It is a state of mind.
-nomad888
Beancounter is offline  
#17 Old 11-15-2010, 10:26 AM
Veggie Regular
 
smob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpius View Post

They can request to have life support removed, which achieves the same goal.

And what do you do with patients who don't require mechanical devices to keep them alive but who are suffering severely? You can't euthanize them.
smob is offline  
#18 Old 11-15-2010, 10:48 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,160
Yeah, and there are illnesses where even if you refuse all medication you will take a long and painful time to die.
Earthling is offline  
#19 Old 11-15-2010, 12:10 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Scorpius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Pluto (the planet)
Posts: 6,741
Quote:
Originally Posted by smob View Post

And what do you do with patients who don't require mechanical devices to keep them alive but who are suffering severely? You can't euthanize them.

I believe someone else on this thread posted that some patients with terminal illnesses (I'm thinking cancer, etc. here) have the power to overdose themselves on pain medications/opioids as a means to an end. The nurses/doctors/visitors can't stick those morphine patches on, but the patient can if they wish to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthling View Post

Yeah, and there are illnesses where even if you refuse all medication you will take a long and painful time to die.

Of course, this is also true as well.

"you know, nowhere in the bible does it say that jesus was not a raptor"


www.animal-adoptions.org

Scorpius is offline  
#20 Old 11-15-2010, 01:46 PM
Veggie Regular
 
smob's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,846
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scorpius View Post

I believe someone else on this thread posted that some patients with terminal illnesses (I'm thinking cancer, etc. here) have the power to overdose themselves on pain medications/opioids as a means to an end. The nurses/doctors/visitors can't stick those morphine patches on, but the patient can if they wish to.

I know several doctors and unfortunately that isn't always the case. They can tell you horror stories of patients who are unable to dose themselves and who, while not on mechanical life support, depend on doctors and nurses for their care....and they die lingering, painful, undignified deaths. They may refuse heroic measures but that still doesn't mean that they'll die quickly. And it doesn't mean that kindly nurses and doctors are going around overdosing patients simply because they're asked to by the patient. It's a real issue without a real solution and not as easily dismissed as you might think.
smob is offline  
#21 Old 11-15-2010, 02:31 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Scorpius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Pluto (the planet)
Posts: 6,741
Quote:
Originally Posted by smob View Post

I know several doctors and unfortunately that isn't always the case. They can tell you horror stories of patients who are unable to dose themselves and who, while not on mechanical life support, depend on doctors and nurses for their care....and they die lingering, painful, undignified deaths. They may refuse heroic measures but that still doesn't mean that they'll die quickly. And it doesn't mean that kindly nurses and doctors are going around overdosing patients simply because they're asked to by the patient. It's a real issue without a real solution and not as easily dismissed as you might think.

I wasn't implying that this happens to every person dying with a terminal illness. Which is why I also addressed Earthling's comment in the post you semi-quoted.

"you know, nowhere in the bible does it say that jesus was not a raptor"


www.animal-adoptions.org

Scorpius is offline  
#22 Old 11-15-2010, 02:41 PM
mlp
Banned
 
mlp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,995
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pixie View Post

I think euthanasia should be allowed by law. I used to have contact with hospice patients through my job and I think people should be given the right and dignity to decide if they want to end their life.

+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skeezix View Post

Most animals are euthanized when they are neither terminally ill nor suffering. Human motives most often involve the increased expense and work that can accompany the chronic conditions aging animals develop. Cats that miss the litter box. Dogs that snap at owners when surprised. Expensive medical treatments. Failing hearing and eyesight. They're slower and less responsive to us .

I think that "euthanasia" is not the appropriate term to use in many/most case where nonhumans are involved - it's killing for convenience, nothing more or less. But yes, when an animal is terminal and can't be kept semi comfortable, then it's euthanasia. I always try to weigh the instinct to life versus the quality of life when I have to make the decision for someone. It's hard to know the right time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smob View Post

I know several doctors and unfortunately that isn't always the case. They can tell you horror stories of patients who are unable to dose themselves and who, while not on mechanical life support, depend on doctors and nurses for their care....and they die lingering, painful, undignified deaths. They may refuse heroic measures but that still doesn't mean that they'll die quickly. And it doesn't mean that kindly nurses and doctors are going around overdosing patients simply because they're asked to by the patient. It's a real issue without a real solution and not as easily dismissed as you might think.

This.

I had always figured I would be able to kill myself when/if the occasion arose, but then my mother had a stroke which made it impossible for her to do so, had she wished, and now I worry that something like that might happen to me. If my sister is still alive, I know I could count on her to give me an overdose if the time would come, but she's nine years older than I am, so it's unlikely that she'll be around to do it.
mlp is offline  
#23 Old 11-15-2010, 02:45 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Parsnip's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,672
Quote:
Originally Posted by coffee View Post

In the US, it is legal in WA and OR.

I know that in WA, however, the patient has to be able to administer the medication on their own. It's assisted suicide.

Same in Oregon, the physician only prescribes the medication, they can't participate in the suicide.
Parsnip is offline  
#24 Old 11-15-2010, 03:54 PM
mlp
Banned
 
mlp's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 8,995
Cremation ad at the bottom of the page.
mlp is offline  
#25 Old 11-17-2010, 06:49 AM
Impeach the gangster
 
Capstan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,052
I'm old fashioned. We have too many laws, as it is. Anyone with the resolve to commit suicide may do so. No law is required. Rather than empowering doctors to kill, we should light a fire under their butts to find some cures. Too many people die from medical negligence; sanctioned mercy-killing would only lead to an even more casual attitude about life within the medical profession.

"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
Capstan is offline  
#26 Old 11-17-2010, 09:29 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan View Post

I'm old fashioned. We have too many laws, as it is. Anyone with the resolve to commit suicide may do so. No law is required. Rather than empowering doctors to kill, we should light a fire under their butts to find some cures. Too many people die from medical negligence; sanctioned mercy-killing would only lead to an even more casual attitude about life within the medical profession.

Of course law is required... or rather, strict legislation. There is a huge potential for abuse here and it needs to be strictly regulated to ensure the person being euthanised wanted to be and was not coerced in to it, and was fully capable of understanding their decision. Cases where the patient cannot make a fully informed decision need to be even more strictly regulated.

Doctors are not the ones who find cures, doctors don't have the time to do medical research. That is another profession entirely.
Earthling is offline  
#27 Old 11-17-2010, 09:29 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 7,160
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capstan View Post

I'm old fashioned. We have too many laws, as it is. Anyone with the resolve to commit suicide may do so. No law is required. Rather than empowering doctors to kill, we should light a fire under their butts to find some cures. Too many people die from medical negligence; sanctioned mercy-killing would only lead to an even more casual attitude about life within the medical profession.

Of course law is required... or rather, strict legislation. There is a huge potential for abuse here and it needs to be strictly regulated to ensure the person being euthanised wanted to be and was not coerced in to it, and was fully capable of understanding their decision. Cases where the patient cannot make a fully informed decision need to be even more strictly regulated.

Doctors are not the ones who find cures, doctors don't have the time to do medical research. That is another profession entirely.
Earthling is offline  
#28 Old 11-17-2010, 10:05 AM
Impeach the gangster
 
Capstan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,052
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthling View Post

Of course law is required... or rather, strict legislation. There is a huge potential for abuse here and it needs to be strictly regulated to ensure the person being euthanised wanted to be and was not coerced in to it, and was fully capable of understanding their decision. Cases where the patient cannot make a fully informed decision need to be even more strictly regulated.

Surely you're not suggesting people who can't decide for themselves should be euthanased by a familial/medical/legal think tank? There's an inherent problem with people killing people. We do too much of it already. I'm against it.

Quote:
Doctors are not the ones who find cures, doctors don't have the time to do medical research. That is another profession entirely.

Unfortuneately, the medical researches will turn their attention to finding more profitable ways of euthanazing people.

"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
Capstan is offline  
#29 Old 11-17-2010, 05:13 PM
Newbie
 
Skeezix's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 40
Oregon's and Washington's assisted-suicide laws do not allow anyone to "coerce" or use "undue influence" to obtain a request for assisted suicide. However, there is absolutely nothing in the Oregon and Washington laws to prevent HMOs, managed care companies, doctors or anyone else from suggesting, encouraging, offering, or bringing up assisted suicide with a patient who has not asked about it.

Emotional, financial and psychological pressures could become overpowering for depressed or dependent people. If the choice of euthanasia or assisted suicide is considered as good as a decision to receive care, some people will feel guilty for not choosing death.
Skeezix is offline  
#30 Old 11-17-2010, 09:32 PM
Veggie Regular
 
roneet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 469
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

What I always say is that we should be more restrictive with non-human euthanasia and more permissive with human euthanasia. And not because I would have some kind of an anti-human agenda but because the scale of quality of life vs. life as such is in imbalance in both cases.

I agree. In a lot of cases, people are too quick to euthanize animals...horse broke a leg -> euthanize! Dog got run over by a car -> euthanize! (Even if it can be saved)...

As for people, I can understand how the policy of euthanasia can be abused...e.g. kids who want to hasten the death of their elderly RICH parents to get their inheritance... or people who don't want to care for their elderly anymore... but there are also so many cases when it's genuinely in patients' best interests to be euthanized.
roneet is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off