Veg*nism & Atheism - VeggieBoards
View Poll Results: Which of these most closely fits your beliefs?
I believe in an omniscient god/gods that created the universe & interferes in daily lives. 0 0%
I believe in a god/gods that created the universe but does not interfere in daily lives. 0 0%
I believe there might be a god. 0 0%
I believe there is most likely no god. 2 100.00%
Voters: 2. You may not vote on this poll

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#1 Old 07-04-2010, 01:55 PM
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I've become very interested lately in the connection between vegetarianism and atheism. While I've seen a few threads similar in nature, I haven't found anything that addresses this topic specifically. I'm not so much interested in what (if any) religion you are, more as I'm interested in HOW religious you are. So I've broken down the questions on the poll to something a little more vague than specific religion, but still fairly specific in what types of beliefs you hold.





I'll go ahead and add my personal thing here. I've started to feel like I need to be more aggressive in my atheism. It seems like in this society, it's perfectly acceptable to preach Christianity, but the moment you question it in public, you're being super offensive. Questioning the "why's" of religion, specifically Christianity, is just socially unacceptable. Or people assume you have no ethics of your own, because you don't live your life according to some ancient book.



It seems like veg*ns tend to be more rebellious in terms of other aspects of their lives as well. I'm interested in what the rest of you think.

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#2 Old 07-04-2010, 02:00 PM
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Evolution is more plausible and aids greatly in fighting ignorance with regards to animal biology. I am an Atheist. Saying 'god created this and that' doesn't explain much.
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#3 Old 07-04-2010, 02:02 PM
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I don't think anyone can KNOW either way, and anyone that claims they KNOW is just as ignorant as the opposing side.



Example: Atheist who says they KNOW there is no god, is as bad as a southern baptist claiming they KNOW there is.

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#4 Old 07-04-2010, 02:02 PM
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Religion. does. not. equal. Christianity.



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#5 Old 07-04-2010, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Earthling' date='04 July 2010 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1278277365' post='2668841 View Post


Religion. does. not. equal. Christianity.










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#6 Old 07-04-2010, 02:05 PM
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Yeah sorry about that, it's become one of my biggest pet peeves
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#7 Old 07-04-2010, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Earthling' date='04 July 2010 - 01:05 PM' timestamp='1278277546' post='2668843 View Post


Yeah sorry about that, it's become one of my biggest pet peeves





As a born jewish girl, I can see why.





As a born Jewish girl, turned buddhist, turned agnostic, I can REALLY see why.

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#8 Old 07-04-2010, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by River' date='04 July 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1278277353' post='2668840 View Post


I don't think anyone can KNOW either way, and anyone that claims they KNOW is just as ignorant as the opposing side.



Example: Atheist who says they KNOW there is no god, is as bad as a southern baptist claiming they KNOW there is.



You can know because the bible and it's ilk were created to explain the unexplainable. Also useful to control the masses. You can know because of the evidence of evolution and we are able to re-create the big bang on a minute scale.



Evidence is far more supporting of the opposing view to the bible. Evidence is factual. Fact is knowledge.
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#9 Old 07-04-2010, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by River' date='05 July 2010 - 06:02 AM' timestamp='1278277353' post='2668840 View Post


I don't think anyone can KNOW either way, and anyone that claims they KNOW is just as ignorant as the opposing side.



Example: Atheist who says they KNOW there is no god, is as bad as a southern baptist claiming they KNOW there is.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthling' date='05 July 2010 - 06:02 AM' timestamp='1278277365' post='2668841 View Post


Religion. does. not. equal. Christianity.





Totally true, however in the west, it's by far the majority religion and it's the one people most interact with so it's understandable to react to it. But yes, there are other religions with other points of view.



Quote:
Originally Posted by hiroki' date='05 July 2010 - 06:11 AM' timestamp='1278277914' post='2668846 View Post


You can know because the bible and it's ilk were created to explain the unexplainable. Also useful to control the masses. You can know because of the evidence of evolution and we are able to re-create the big bang on a minute scale.



Evidence is far more supporting of the opposing view to the bible. Evidence is factual. Fact is knowledge.

I would still say you can't KNOW. I'm never sure whether to call myself atheist or agnostic. I don't believe in God. But I accept that I might be wrong. Maybe there is one, how do I know? I don't know everything. Yes, we have evolutionary science, and the recreated big bang and all, but what if there were some God who had created the big bang? And had influenced (or not) events all along? It would make the Bible incorrect for sure. And I don't believe it's true. But how can I know for sure?



We humans are so small in the universe. We're capable of amazing things, but we're awfully small and awfully limited in our current understanding of life and the universe. I just try to keep an open mind.
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#10 Old 07-04-2010, 02:21 PM
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There is no evidence of 'intelligent design'...no evidence of god. Richard Dawkins...I recommend you look into his books and what not.



God is a human creation, nothing more nothing less. A fantastical scapegoat.
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#11 Old 07-04-2010, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiroki' date='04 July 2010 - 01:11 PM' timestamp='1278277914' post='2668846 View Post


You can know because the bible and it's ilk were created to explain the unexplainable. Also useful to control the masses. You can know because of the evidence of evolution and we are able to re-create the big bang on a minute scale.



Evidence is far more supporting of the opposing view to the bible. Evidence is factual. Fact is knowledge.





Er, no, because you can't KNOW that a higher power had nothing to do with creation events such as the big bang, or evolution.

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#12 Old 07-04-2010, 02:24 PM
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See last post. All evidence points to the lack of existence of god. I'm not going to deny the obvious.
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#13 Old 07-04-2010, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Clarita Osita' date='04 July 2010 - 09:19 PM' timestamp='1278278340' post='2668851 View Post


Totally true, however in the west, it's by far the majority religion and it's the one people most interact with so it's understandable to react to it. But yes, there are other religions with other points of view.

Fine, but if people have issues with Christianity why do they say they have issues with religion? I've had the following conversations lately:



Person: "I hate how religious people hate gays because it's written in their stupid old book."

Me: "Oh, I missed that part. Where in the Bhagavad Gita does it say to hate gay people?"

Person: "I meant the Bible..."

Me: "Well I'm a religious person, and I don't follow the Bible. I also certainly don't hate gay people."

Person: "...okay, I guess I meant Christians."



After a similar interaction with someone else...



Person: "Yeah well, all religions annoy me because they say if you don't follow THEIR path, you go to hell. It's stupid."

Me: "Uh yeah, my religion doesn't say that either. It's very clear that there is no one correct path."

Person (very annoyed now): "RELIGION IS STUPID AND I DON'T AGREE WITH IT."

Me: "You've made that decision based on what?"

Person: "I've known loads of religious people and talked to them about their views and I don't agree with it."

Me: "When you say religious people, were any of them not Christian?"

Person: "...no."



If you're going to attack something, educate yourselves first people, please!
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#14 Old 07-04-2010, 02:29 PM
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I'm an atheist. Technically an agnostic atheist, I suppose. But I can see no reason to believe in a higher power and no evidence pointing to the existence of a higher power. Furthermore, using a higher power to clear up things we don't understand creates an even more improbable situation than our already highly improbable universe.

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#15 Old 07-04-2010, 02:32 PM
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I don't claim to know about every religion on earth, but the Abrahamic religions all seem silly and often dangerous to me. The fundamentalists especially. Extremists of any stripe are dangerous. The liberals and moderates perhaps not so much. I have extended family members who are "conservative" lutherans who believe in young earth creationism, that "god-fearing christian" is a complement, and no doubt think that my entire close family is going to burn for all eternity, if they really think about it. We don't talk about our beliefs because we know they'd not like it.



I have a great deal of respect for most Buddhists I know. Many of their beliefs seem very inclusive and rational, and only some of them believe in a higher power. Ditto with Unitarians. Many pagans seem like interesting, earth-centered people, but I have friends who believe they cast magic, which strains my credibility.

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#16 Old 07-04-2010, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by hiroki' date='04 July 2010 - 01:24 PM' timestamp='1278278650' post='2668856 View Post


See last post. All evidence points to the lack of existence of god. I'm not going to deny the obvious.





All Evidence points to human's inability to know either way.

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#17 Old 07-04-2010, 02:35 PM
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It is much like the disapproving looks you get when people find you're vegan. You can be on just about any diet, and it's okay,even if they're not on board. Even vegetarian, people approve, but vegan --whoa-- that's crossing the line. That's just what I get with being atheist.

Actually, I'm more agnostic, but that only leads to debate so I leave it at atheist.

Seriously, I'm thinking of joining a secular organization. I'd never allow adults to tell bogeymen stories to children without voicing objection, but that's exactly what religion, Christian in particular, does. It's fine to post billboards preaching you'll go to hell if you don't believe, and do you really want to take that chance? In the news the past week they put a billboard up that read "On nation, indivisable", and people were outraged because it didn't say under god! I believe it was taken down. I've passed that go to hell billboard (more than one) since my kids were small. It's just like saying "you may not see anything under your bed, but what if there are monsters? So OCD.

This idea that Christianity is under fire is as lame as veg**ns taking over the world when ask for kinder treatment for animals.

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#18 Old 07-04-2010, 03:01 PM
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I would recommend the works of Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins and Dennett.



Also, watch clips from the Atheist Experience and Ask an Atheist on Youtube.





My position isn't that there is definitely no god..that is called "strong" or "certain" atheism. I feel it's just as illogical as being 100% sure there is one. At the same time, I see no reason to believe there is one, so I skeptically reject the claim that there is a god. Therefore I would describe myself as an atheist and a secular humanist.



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9_VsdoxtvU[/media]

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#19 Old 07-04-2010, 03:15 PM
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I like that video with one little nit. He said something about religion requiring that their view is the only true one. There are several religions that acknowledge the existence of a variety of paths. Other than that, it was good. Thanks for posting it.

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#20 Old 07-04-2010, 03:21 PM
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I think Christianity offers a valuable "framework" for discussing many larger questions, such as the problem of evil, that are not as easily accessible (or considered worth thinking about) otherwise, or which nevertheless receive some alternative, useful interpretation in that framework. Many other religions undoubtedly offer that too.



I think to attribute good or evil, positive or negative effect, to something as large and culturally pervasive and multifaceted, and compatible with as many different interpretations, as a whole religious tradition, is either impossible, implausible or pointless. It's like asking "is technology good or bad?", or, as was the topic of another thread, "is the world getting better or worse?". How can you weigh all the different aspects, and your valuations of them, and reach some kind of conclusive balance? Religion, and science, and art, all reflect us and constitute us, and they have all been used both to rationalize injustice as well as to liberate and reform.



As I've said earlier, I think many religions, probably all of them, share a belief in some kind of predetermined, natural and normative order of things, with specific roles assigned to people and animals. I find this belief restrictive of critical thought and freedom and sometimes, a source of oppression and great harm.

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#21 Old 07-04-2010, 03:27 PM
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Picked 3, but it was a coin toss between 3 and 4. Makes me an agnostic, I guess. Nothing was said about this God being *good* or *just*, so for me, it can be an evil God. I mean any kind of God that helps rich girls get their ideal prom date but allows slaughterhouses to operate flawlessly is no God for me to praise.
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#22 Old 07-04-2010, 03:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthling' date='04 July 2010 - 04:02 PM' timestamp='1278277365' post='2668841 View Post


Religion. does. not. equal. Christianity.







If that was directed at me, I did say "religion, specifically Christianity..." I'm not sure how that implies that I was equating one to the other.



Anyway, on the subject of agnostics, I found that I was throwing myself into that category for a while, because obviously it is impossible to KNOW for certain that there is no "higher power." But if I define that higher power as "god," as some supreme omniscient being that created the universe and cares what we're doing but doesn't bother telling us, then consider the probability of that actually being plausible, it definitely makes me throw myself into the atheist category without a second thought.

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#23 Old 07-04-2010, 04:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by River' date='04 July 2010 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1278277353' post='2668840 View Post


I don't think anyone can KNOW either way, and anyone that claims they KNOW is just as ignorant as the opposing side.



Example: Atheist who says they KNOW there is no god, is as bad as a southern baptist claiming they KNOW there is.

Thank you. As an atheist, I know there is no god, just like I know there isn't a thousand tentacled fluorescent purple sea monster under my boat, and like I know that pigs cannot fly, and the sun doesn't rise in the west. Until evidence is shown to the contrary, I know these things aren't true, I don't merely believe them to not be true. God is a made up human idea, much like the Wizard of Oz, and I know damn well the Wizard of Oz doesn't exist either.

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#24 Old 07-04-2010, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by creep' date='04 July 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1278283465' post='2668887 View Post


But if I define that higher power as "god," as some supreme omniscient being that created the universe and cares what we're doing but doesn't bother telling us, then consider the probability of that actually being plausible, it definitely makes me throw myself into the atheist category without a second thought.



Old man God lacks some communication skills. And then there was that whole disaster between him and Adam with that apple deal. Adam speaking Chinese, God speaking Spanish. Heck, God even had posters made of an apple with the red circle and slash mark over the top and even that didn't work. So yeah, God got fed up. Went on an intergalactical "walkabout" for quite a while. Comes back to find man's been making moonshine. Of course then, vast quantities of that moonshine end up missing.

Always wandered why Star Trek never had an episide of Kirk and crew coming across a totally wasted God stumbling around the edge of the universe, cracking his head into planets, sending chunks flying (dude named Halley was the first to spot one of 'em )
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#25 Old 07-04-2010, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by saxyphonist' date='04 July 2010 - 10:29 PM' timestamp='1278278986' post='2668862 View Post


I'm an atheist. Technically an agnostic atheist, I suppose. But I can see no reason to believe in a higher power and no evidence pointing to the existence of a higher power. Furthermore, using a higher power to clear up things we don't understand creates an even more improbable situation than our already highly improbable universe.



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#26 Old 07-04-2010, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by hiroki' date='05 July 2010 - 06:21 AM' timestamp='1278278497' post='2668852 View Post


There is no evidence of 'intelligent design'...no evidence of god. Richard Dawkins...I recommend you look into his books and what not.



God is a human creation, nothing more nothing less. A fantastical scapegoat.

I have one of Dawkins' books, just haven't had a chance to read it yet. But as far as I'm aware, there is also no evidence against intelligent design.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Earthling' date='05 July 2010 - 06:25 AM' timestamp='1278278712' post='2668858 View Post


Fine, but if people have issues with Christianity why do they say they have issues with religion? I've had the following conversations lately:



Person: "I hate how religious people hate gays because it's written in their stupid old book."

Me: "Oh, I missed that part. Where in the Bhagavad Gita does it say to hate gay people?"

Person: "I meant the Bible..."

Me: "Well I'm a religious person, and I don't follow the Bible. I also certainly don't hate gay people."

Person: "...okay, I guess I meant Christians."



After a similar interaction with someone else...



Person: "Yeah well, all religions annoy me because they say if you don't follow THEIR path, you go to hell. It's stupid."

Me: "Uh yeah, my religion doesn't say that either. It's very clear that there is no one correct path."

Person (very annoyed now): "RELIGION IS STUPID AND I DON'T AGREE WITH IT."

Me: "You've made that decision based on what?"

Person: "I've known loads of religious people and talked to them about their views and I don't agree with it."

Me: "When you say religious people, were any of them not Christian?"

Person: "...no."



If you're going to attack something, educate yourselves first people, please!

You're very right. I try to distinguish between "religion" and "Christianity," but I realize that a lot of people don't because Christianity has defined most of their dealings with religion.
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#27 Old 07-04-2010, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarita Osita' date='04 July 2010 - 07:13 PM' timestamp='1278288807' post='2668917 View Post


I have one of Dawkins' books, just haven't had a chance to read it yet. But as far as I'm aware, there is also no evidence against intelligent design.





There's really no such thing as evidence against something. That's a logical fallacy. This principle is usually called the burden of proof. It's always on the believer - the person making a statement in the affirmative. There can only ever be positive evidence. For instance, if some dude came up to me and proclaimed that candy bars are actually Unicorn feces and not made in factories, there's no evidence against that. But there's a tremendous amount of evidence that they're made in factories.



Similarly, there's a tremendous amount of evidence that all life on this planet evolved from simpler forms and that the biodiversity on this planet is a result of random genetic mutations working in tandem with natural selection - the combination of the two being a little theory known as Evolution, which has contributed tremendously to bio medical knowledge over the last 160 years or so. So no, there's no evidence against intelligent design, but there's plenty of evidence for evolution. Tons. Volumes. Visit any reputable museum or read the works of any reputable biologist.





This doesn't preclude the notion that some higher power may have designed single celled organisms and allowed them to evolve on their own, of course, but the "Intelligent Design" pushed by conservative groups is almost always of the biblical or young earth nature.





edit: Just for fun, here's Sam Harris



[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsqTysSMQpk[/media]

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#28 Old 07-04-2010, 06:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by River' date='04 July 2010 - 01:02 PM' timestamp='1278277353' post='2668840 View Post


I don't think anyone can KNOW either way, and anyone that claims they KNOW is just as ignorant as the opposing side.



Example: Atheist who says they KNOW there is no god, is as bad as a southern baptist claiming they KNOW there is.

You're comparing theism(belief) to atheism(lackof belief. How is atheism just as ignorant? We don't believe/state that there is no god definetely. We don't see enough evidence to support the theory of a god's existence. Ugh! I hate how every time there is a discussion on atheism some uninformed person complains about it when they don't even know the definition!!!!

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#29 Old 07-04-2010, 06:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Veg-Athei-Socialis' date='04 July 2010 - 05:23 PM' timestamp='1278293038' post='2668944 View Post


You're comparing theism(belief) to atheism(lackof belief. How is atheism just as ignorant? We don't believe/state that there is no god definetely. We don't see enough evidence to support the theory of a god's existence. Ugh! I hate how every time there is a discussion on atheism some uninformed person complains about it when they don't even know the definition!!!!





To it's comparing two definite where there is lack of evidence to really prove either. I hate how Atheists try to be just as definite as the religophiles.

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#30 Old 07-04-2010, 06:40 PM
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Indeed...also the label of "arrogant" or "atheists lack humility" makes me laugh out loud.



Nothing could be less arrogant than rejecting a claim without evidence. The same goes for science and scientists. A scientist would be the first person to gladly admit he's wrong if he made a mistake or held a view that later turned out to be false. And if he's asked a question off his field of expertise he'll usually refer you to a specialist in that field instead.



You see that kind of humility all the time in science. It's a system that lends itself to such behavior. It's heavily checked by peer review and constant study. Organized, dogmatic versions of religion on the other hand purport to be in possession of exclusive, undeniable and undebatable facts about the makeup of our universe. If anything is arrogant, it's that type of belief.



People who say we don't know the exact origins of life or the universe are absolutely right. We don't. But isn't it better to actually try and find those things out on our own than to conveniently insert a deity into any gap in human understanding?

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