To petition against Australian plans to kill 2 million feral cats - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 03-03-2016, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Crouton View Post
Yes there has been problems, there's been several national parks on the mainland, as well as in Tasmania where some amount of culling has resulted in an increase in population in isolated areas. That's why researchers are constantly trying to figure out more effective ways of doing this. The excuse of "I'm vegan" in this case is laughable. You can't pretend that you care about animals, then sit back and be fine with doing nothing about this situation at all.

So by your theory, we need to sit back, put our feet up, and watch native animals die, watch them become endangered, watch them become extinct, forever, then when they are gone, we sit back and watch cats take out the next species, and the next species, which is what they are already doing and have been doing for years. You CANNOT pretend to "care" about animals, then be fine with that. I'm sorry but it doesn't work that way. Anyone with half a brain and even a grain of knowledge about this situation can see that.

And you know what, anyone who does let their cat free roam is a dickhead anyway. Do you know what the anti-free roam people are trying to support? They are trying to support keeping cats safe. When cats are allowed to do whatever the hell they want and walk all around the neighbourhood, they are at risk of injury from fights with other cats an animals, at risk of ingesting poison, at risk of getting lost, at risk of getting hit by a car. This isn't just about protecting native animals, but pet cats as well. So if we can get the current domesticated population under control, and maintained inside houses and cat-runs, then eliminate the wild feral populations this issue wouldn't even exist. But it DOES, because cat's are "cute". Just because they are a popular pet and many consider them cute the issue of how bloodthirsty and destructive they are has been overlooked for so long. And people like all the idiots on this board keep protecting them, pretending to be "animal lovers", but in the mean time this protection is the leading cause of death, endangerment and extinction for wild animals. So if you think your doing a good thing for animals by protecting cats then think again, because your just bloody confused idiotic cretins.

Globally, cats have already been responsible for the complete extinction of 33 animals species. But you know, they are cute, so why should we care right?

By the way, this isn't an Australian-only issue, domestic and feral cats and the stupidity and ignorance of their owners is a global problem, and these so-called "cat lovers" are letting their pets destroy millions of animals, which doesn't seem very vegan to me.

If you want links then try these ones.

http://io9.gizmodo.com/5979891/domes...ing-ecosystems

http://www.australiangeographic.com....blem-with-cats

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-21236690

http://www.ecology.com/2013/08/27/gl...ct-feral-cats/

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal...comms2380.html

http://www.abc.net.au/environment/ar...13/4104768.htm

http://www.livescience.com/26670-cat...s-animals.html

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/...irds-each-year

Want some more information? I can give it to you, it's all out there, and it has been for years. The problem is fake "animal lovers" like yourself would rather turn the other way and pretend to be ignorant rather than realising there's no easy answer to this situation. It's much easier to just sit back and let the planet go to **** rather than actually taking a stand and trying to help it isn't it. So much easier to bury your head in the sand and ignore whats happening.
Personal insults, really? We are "idiots"?

I've been vegan for more than a decade, have helped many people reduce/eliminate their meat/dairy/egg consumption. I cook for omnis all the time, give vegan food to the homeless and to food banks, helped get dolphins out of a horrible pool situation at a local theme park, have leafleted, domated to vegan causes, and fed my family vegan food all this time.

I've never had a pet cat, nor will I, but of course do think they are cute. I don't find big snakes to be particularly adorable, but I protest the killing of them in the Everglades, even though they are destroying so called native species. God didn't put certain animals certain places, and we need to protect them there. We can try to undo decades, centuries, of humans' ruining so-called native species' environments.

Spending millions of dollars on killing cats is a short term "solution" that probably will backfire. Trap, neuter, release works more slowly, but is viable.

I don't want animals killed because we put them in a place we feel they don't belong!

Because I am vegan!!!
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#32 Old 03-03-2016, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by silva View Post
Not one person here suggested ignoring the issue, or that it wasn't a problem. We've outlined other longterm solutions, and the possible disaster killing millions of one species could cause, along with failing to resolve anything.
Yeah but the problem is, no one did outline a long term solution. All I see is people saying "trap, neuter, release" which I have explained countless times is not a viable solution at all. Almost like a broken record now. So aside from that I haven't actually seen anyone offering these so called magical solution to this problem. The only disaster eradicating cats would cause is that we will save dozens of species of animals from complete extinction. They have done it before, there's been islands where feral goats were completely 100% eradicated (done by shooting them from a helicopter that flew over the whole island). And the result? All native fauna and flora was able to thrive once again and they haven't had any issue ever since.

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Trying to eradicate cats from overtaking over is much like spraying chemicals on ants while leaving crumbs out and not sealing access areas. As ledboots and I said, any animal species will struggle to increase their numbers.
Yes, which is why they are constantly trying new and different approaches, some of which are actually working. And NONE of which are "Trap, neuter, release" since that's a joke that would never work. One small aboriginal community in Australia have taken it upon themselves to hunt as many cats as they can, for food but they also use their skins. And this community is the only area in Australia where populations of one of our native qoull species are actually rising, rather than declining, so there are methods out there working, and each day scientists and researchers are coming up with new way to deal things, ways that could actually work, not laughable ways like the ONLY one people here are suggesting.

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Cats do not invade. this isn't a cat problem but a human problem. More species go extinct every day from human invasion (who are BTW the main invasive species). Do you also support mandatory abortions to control the human population? Using your logic that would do more good than killing other species.
Do you think I believe the cats came here of their own accord? Of course I know this is a human problem, our idiotic ancestors bought them here without thinking anything through, it was OUR fault which is why it's OUR responsibility to do something about it. To sit back and do nothing would be a horrible disservice to our environment. Our ancestors generations ago bought in animals with the capability of wiping out a large amount of our native animals. Our poor native animals are fighting a fight they can't win and it's our fault, so of course we need to step in and help and try to undo what idiots in the past did. I also know that humans are the worst invasive species on the planet, which is why I don't like just sitting back and doing nothing about it. It's why I became vegan, it's why I go to Sea Shepherd community beach clean-up events, it's why I try to limit the amount of plastic waste/energy etc that I consumes, it's why I go to animal rights/environmental rallies and work with environmental groups. My desire to control the cat population falls under any other activisim, as the main goal of it is to save animals and help the environment, just like everything else I do. Other people here are just too blind to see that, because to them if everything doesn't have some magical, easy, harmless way out then it's too hard to do. I'm considered the devil here because I'm the only one brave enough to admit that NO, there isn't always an "Easy way out", sometimes we have to do the hard thing, sometimes it sucks, and it's horrible, and we hate it, but if we don't then the other outcome will be SO much worse, so sometimes we need to just face it and at admit there there's no simple solution. This is the concept that no one here seems to understand. Everyone else seems to be stuck in some magical fantasy land where everything is good and nice and you don't need to make tough choices, I sure as hell wish I could live there but sadly I seem to be stuck in reality.

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@Crouton - name calling is against the terms of service. Did you really not expect vegans to oppose killing animals? I'll leave it to you to think about editing your post.
Okay sure, I shouldn't call people names, I'm sorry about that, but try understand my frustration. About 10 times now I keep seeing "trap, neuter, release". THIS IS NOT VIABLE. I've explained, in detail why this is in no way a pratical solution, I broke it down and explained it in the other thread, yet again and again like a broken record that's all people keep saying? How could that not be frustrating. It's like talking to a brick wall, I patiently and politely explained in the other thread why trap, neuter, release would never work, why it's ineffective, why it's too big of a job, why it's too expensive and why it's 100% impossible to pull off here. And then every-time I click on this thread all I see is people who clearly didn't even read just shouting out the same stupid "trap, neuter, release" tagline. What a joke. Surely you can at least appreciate how frustrating that is, anyone is bound to snap when talking to a brick wall in such a way.

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Originally Posted by silva View Post
We're not expected to all agree here, but when a tread is obviously going to be controversial people should think about keeping discussion civil.
You're the one picking and choosing which animals live or die. Other animals don't choose to invade, they don't travel by themselves. Why do you feel killing of millions of cats, which would be a constant thing, is more favorable than cats killing animals for food? You're the one being speciest here choosing one animals life over anothers
I'm picking or choosing for animals to die? No I'm not. I didn't bring cats here, I've never even owned a cat. I don't work for the Government, I don't hunt, I don't own any type of weapon, I personally have no impact on this whatsoever, all I do is a lot of research and educate myself, as I always have done on environmental issues. So for you to say I'M personally picking and choosing what dies is kind of a joke. I choose nothing but to educate myself and to understand. Who do you think I actually am? The governor of the environmental board of the Australian Government or something? If that's what you think then no, I'm not. I'm just someone who can sympathise with the fact that life isn't always easy, and sometimes there is no easy simple answer to huge problems. I'm also someone who thinks humans should limit their impact on the environment as much as possible, and that includes trying to fix the mistakes of our ancestors, mistakes that are causing loss of life and environmental damage on an immeasurable scale. Sadly many of the so-called animal lovers on this forum seem to be far too blinkered to understand that.
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#33 Old 03-03-2016, 03:08 PM
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So can I call people names on this forum now too?
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#34 Old 03-03-2016, 03:14 PM
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Seriously, in that ENTIRE post, where I actually apologised for calling people names, that's all you got from it?... wow
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#35 Old 03-03-2016, 04:20 PM
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Crouton, you're the one ADVOCATING the killing of cats, you're the one wishing life for some and death for others.
The biggest issue I have with killing the cats is that it doesn't solve the problem at all, but it does contribute to poisoning the mindsets of the next generation. You say people are killing the cats for fur. How is that different than trapping fox, or any other small animal? You call that control? It's greed.
TNS isn't just about a one time effort it's about changing the cultures mentality from one of easy killing to one of logic, compassion and insight. It's about taking responsibility for your own, and your species own, mistakes.
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#36 Old 03-03-2016, 06:26 PM
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Yeah but the problem with that logic, is that it doesn't solve anything. Nothing gets fixed, we lose more native animals than ever before to extinction, and it's all our fault for not acting. We have changed our cultures mindset, we've learnt from the stupid actions of our ancestors, and we now are educated enough not to bring non-native animals into the country and just let them roam free. Australia has some of the strictest laws in the world against letting new species or non-native animals enter. It's illegal to own pet hedgehogs here among many other things for that reason. That's good, we are stopping new problems from starting, so we have learned and developed. But it doesn't change the fact that the old problems are still there and getting worse every day.

14% of all the world recent animal extinctions can be linked to cats. And it's our fault for taking cats everywhere and letting this happen. Australia is in the middle of a crisis of a huge scale with all of our native animals being lost... forever. I think the reason you can't understand how bad the situation is, is because you don't live here and you don't see it first hand. You've probably never even seen any of these creatures in person, and you probably never will, because if we can't get cats and other feral species under control soon they will be gone FOREVER. And it will be our fault.

I don't understand how you are failing to grasp this concept. I'm not sure how many other ways I can explain that sitting back and letting dozens and dozens of native animals become extinct for all time, rather than actually fighting for their survival and helping them is a good thing.
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#37 Old 03-03-2016, 06:53 PM
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14% of all the world recent animal extinctions can be linked to cats.
Source, please? Because I'm finding that 22-33 extinctions can be "linked" to cats (please note that these same extinctions are also "linked" to humans, through habitat destruction, pesticide and herbicide use, etc.), while the number of extinctions PER YEAR is 200 to 2,000. I don't need a calculator to figure out that 22-33 total does not constitute 14% of 200-2,000 per year.

And again, what about the HUMAN linkage to these same extinctions that you're blaming solely on cats?

Also, please note that repeatedly saying "TNR doesn't work" isn't the same as it actually not working. But then, you probably don't grasp that, since what I was describing with my polar bear analogy flew right over your head.
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#38 Old 03-03-2016, 06:59 PM
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Kiwi doesn't say killing them is the best solution. I do. It is not a good solution but I can't think of a better one. Though I wouldn't kill them myself because I don't have the guts.
It's really difficult for me to believe that I'm seeing this on a veg*n board. This, and the posts from Crouton.

I am thankful that I will never meet these people IRL.
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#39 Old 03-03-2016, 07:16 PM
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Source, please? Because I'm finding that 22-33 extinctions can be "linked" to cats (please note that these same extinctions are also "linked" to humans, through habitat destruction, pesticide and herbicide use, etc.), while the number of extinctions PER YEAR is 200 to 2,000. I don't need a calculator to figure out that 22-33 total does not constitute 14% of 200-2,000 per year.

And again, what about the HUMAN linkage to these same extinctions that you're blaming solely on cats?

Also, please note that repeatedly saying "TNR doesn't work" isn't the same as it actually not working. But then, you probably don't grasp that, since what I was describing with my polar bear analogy flew right over your head.
Okay, since you all somehow missed it when I explained why TNR won't work in this situation, I'll break it down for you again.

Now, I'm not saying that TNR will NEVER work in ANY situation, I'm just saying that in this particular case, it won't work. And even though I've already done it multiple times, since it isn't sinking in then I'm willing to explain it one more time.

The biggest reason why TNR is not effective in this situation is the sheer scale of it. Neutering pet cats is important, and the law here. So for ones that are still domestic, yes this is very important, but when we look at the figures, trying to do this with our now wild feral populations is unreasonable.

First of all, the population of Australia is currently 23 million. And the current estimations for the number of feral cats in Australia, is 15 million (some argue this figure is closer to 18 million now, the cats are getting closer and closer to taking over the human population).

Now consider the fact, that to neuter an animal, you need to be trained, a veterinarian or professional animal carer. Now, 15 million cats need to be tracked down, caught and neutered, in a country of only 23 million people. I'm hoping you are starting to see just how ridiculous this is getting.

Even if every currently working veterinarian in the country, currently gave up their full time vet work, and went and neutered as many feral cats as possible, it still wouldn't be enough. For this plan to work, the Government would need to put millions of dollars into a scheme to train up thousands, possibly even more people in how to neuter animals, which is a complicated surgical procedure that takes a lot of training to do properly.

Then there's the question of where do we find these people, would the be volunteers? Would we have to pay them as well?

Then there's the issue of where the cats are a bigger problem. Feral cats aren't just an issue in cities here, they have broken through some of our protected national parks, where many of our most vulnerable species live. Now these parks are spread out throughout Australia, in all different areas, and some of them are many days drive from the nearest big city, many of them a days drive from even a small town. Not too mention the fact that since there's no towns there's no accommodation, so to settle the sheer amount of trained vets we would need in these parks to pull this off, we would need huge budgets for camping gear, temporary caravans etc.

So first we need to find thousands of volunteers, train them in tracking/catching/ and neutering of animals (which is a full on surgical procedure). We then need to fly/drive/transport these people AND all their equipment to all sorts of wild and arid places, all across the country, to catch and neuter as many cats as possible. Now the price tag of such an event could be in the billions.

IF this was in any way possible, IF we could pull it off, we are still left with a problem.

Many of these neutered cats released back into the wild, can still live, hunt and kill our native animals. And many of them could live for up to 5-10 years. So even though they can't reproduce, that 5-10 year time-period alone is enough to lose more native species. There are so many that are already on the very brink of extinction, think critically endangered listing, that the extra 5-10 years of cats will see and end to their species forever.

If someone here can somehow debunk the real facts, and explain to me how in this country, in this situation, with the sheer size and scale of the cat population, the native species decline and how far and wide the issues has spread that TNR can actually be effective, then I'll be all ears.

Also I don't know why people keep bringing up the fact that these are human extinctions, not just cat ones. I'm the one trying to tell you that. I KNOW it's our fault, which is why I don't want to see us just sit back and not try and fix our mistakes. Every time an animal becomes extinct because of cats, it is 100% human fault and human error for introducing cats to that area and not controlling them. I'm more than aware of this, and it's why I care so much about it. Because this isn't a natural problem, it's a man-made one and we need to do something about it.

PS. Australian towns are so far apart and so arid that there are some areas where space is closer than the nearest town. I think that helps understand the scale of how hard it would to transfer these thousands of magically trained vets all across this country.

Last edited by Crouton; 03-03-2016 at 11:39 PM.
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#40 Old 03-03-2016, 07:26 PM
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I never said that killing them was a preferred or even the best solution, I said a better, less cruel solution was needed. The reality is you aren't going to get very far if you campaign to just leave them to attack and kill wildlife/disrupt the local ecosystem.

I also don't agree spay/neuter is the most effective solution either. It's too big of a problem and the cost to trap and fix them all would be exorbitant. All it takes is a small number of animals to evade capture and you have enough to "repopulate". Not to mention an additional 10-12 years of ecological damage before big numbers begin dying of natural causes. Cats are in no danger of going extinct, but many of Australia's native species are, sadly due to non-native species (not just cats) brought in by humans. I don't know what a better solution would be, and I do hope a less cruel method is found, but what is to be done about the wildlife that is being killed or their habitat being disrupted by all these cats? Are the venerable and endangered native species suppose to be less important according to the vegan agenda?
Kiwibird was the only person talking sense in this thread.

The vegan agenda indeed, putting cats above all other animals is apparently what that means according to a lot of you here.
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#41 Old 03-04-2016, 02:07 AM
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Kiwibird was the only person talking sense in this thread.

The vegan agenda indeed, putting cats above all other animals is apparently what that means according to a lot of you here.
The "vegan agenda" is not putting one animal above another, which you are doing, it is about NOT KILLING ANIMALS. Not about whole grains, quinoa and kombucha. It is about stopping human slaughtering of animals.

I can't believe I am defending NOT KILLING MILLIONS OF CATS ON VEGGIEBOARDS.

MODS, WHAT THE **** IS HAPPENING TO THIS PLACE?
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#42 Old 03-04-2016, 02:33 AM
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Yeah but the cats aren't controlling any other species. There's lengthy studies undertaken over the course of 20+ years to prove this. The cats kill native animals, they might take out another invasive species every now and then, like a rabbit, but that isn't enough to outweigh the sheer amount of damage they are doing to native animals, which is damaging to the point of extinction.

We have tried managing their numbers in humane methods already, we tried it for YEARS, we tried dozens of different methods.

You are talking about wolves in America, another person was talking about polar bears.

I'm talking about cats in Australia, I'm from Australia, I've lived here my entire life and I've been following/researching and living through this issue personally for years, so I'm finding it kind of hilarious that everyone is pretending to actually know more about this situation than me. It's very easy to sit back in another country unaffected by an issue and give uneducated opinions, but if you come here and actually witness what we are seeing every single day, and actually educate yourself on this matter then you'd realise how all your humane answers aren't going to work.

So no, you can't just compare this situation to hunting wolves for more prey animals, wolves are native and they are hunting farm animals. This is a completely different situation. They are so far apart from being related it's just crazy.
How is that situation different? Every animal at one time was an 'introduced'' species. How is killing cats any different than killing any other animal? By what you're saying is the cats will eat everything on your island and die from starvation
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#43 Old 03-04-2016, 02:37 AM
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I have started deleting posts advocating killing, not sure what to do with thread other than leave the OP's post and remove everything else, as the op was asking for help in saving animals, not killing them, which is --what this forum is all about.
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#44 Old 03-04-2016, 02:57 AM
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I have started deleting posts advocating killing, not sure what to do with thread other than leave the OP's post and remove everything else, as the op was asking for help in saving animals, not killing them, which is --what this forum is all about.
I know, it is really sad. I don't know if you can fix this.
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#45 Old 03-04-2016, 04:01 AM
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I'm going to close this thread as this discussion doesn't seem to be going anywhere productive.

"If we could live happy and healthy lives without harming others... why wouldn't we?" - Edgars Mission
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