Ornish, McDougall, and other vegan diets - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 05-23-2004, 07:22 AM
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Who has tried a very low fat vegan diet plan? Did it work? Was it hard to maintain? How were the results?



This is the information that I could find.



Ornish Diet:

Quote:

You can eat the following foods whenever you feel hungry until you are full (but not until you are stuffed):

* Beans and legumes (lentils, kidney beans, peas, black beans, red Mexican beans, split peas, soybeans, black-eyed peas, garbanzos, navy beans, and so on)

* Fruits (apples, apricots, bananas, strawberries, cherries, blueberries, oranges, peaches, raspberries, cantaloupes, watermelons, pears, honeydew melons, pineapples, tomatoes, and so on)

* Grains (corn, rice, oats, wheat, millet, barley, buckwheat, and so on)

* Vegetables (potatoes, zucchini, broccoli, carrots, lettuce, mushrooms, eggplant, celery, asparagus, onions, sweet potatoes, spinach, and so on)

You can eat the following foods in moderation:

* Nonfat dairy products, including skim milk, nonfat yogurt, nonfat cheeses, nonfat sour cream, and egg whites

* Nonfat or very low-fat commercially available products, including whole grain breakfast cereals, Health Valley chili (and many other Health Valley products), Kraft Free nonfat mayonnaise and salad dressings, Guiltless Gourmet tortilla chips, Quaker Oats oatmeal, Nabisco fat-free crackers, Fleishmann's Egg Beaters, Pritikin soups.

Here are the foods to avoid as much as possible:

* Meats (all kinds, including chicken and fish)

* Oils (all kinds) and oil-containing products, including margarines and most salad dressings

* Avocados

* Olives

* Nuts and seeds

* High-fat or "low-fat" dairy, including whole milk, yogurt, butter, cheese, egg yolks, cream, and so on

* Sugar and simple sugar derivatives (honey, molasses, corn syrup, high fructose syrup, and the like)

* Alcohol

* Any commercially available product with more than two grams of fat per serving



Shintani:

Quote:

Daily Use

* Whole Grains: 8-13 servings

* Vegetables: 3-5 servings

* Fruit: 2-4 servings

* Non-Dairy Calcium Foods: 2-3 servings

* Non-Cholesterol Protein/Iron Foods: 2-3

Optional or Special Occasion Use

* Dairy

* Fish/Poultry/Meat

* Fats/Oils/Sugar



McDougall:

Quote:

Foods you should eat

* All whole grains and whole-grain cereals, such as brown rice, corn, oatmeal, barley, millet, and wheat berries; many packaged grain cereals, puffed grains, and other healthful cereals.

* Squashes, such as acorn, butternut, buttercup, pumpkin, and zucchini.

* Root vegetables, such as potatoes, sweet potatoes, and yams.

* Legumes, such as peas, split peas, black-eyed peas, string beans, and such beans as chick-peas, lentils, and adzuki, navy, pinto, and black beans.

* Green and yellow vegetables, such as collard greens, broccoli, kale, mustard greens, cabbage, various types of lettuce, and watercress; celery, cauliflower, carrots, and asparagus, and tomato.

* Fruit, such as apples, bananas, berries, grapefruit, oranges, peaches, and pears. (Limited to two servings per day.)

* For most people, simple sugars, salt, and spices used sparingly at the table rather than in cooking.

Avoid the following:

* All red meat, including beef pork, and lamb. All are rich in fat, cholesterol, and other harmful constituents.

* All poultry and fish. Poultry has about the same amount of cholesterol as red meat, while fish varies, depending on the type. Some fish are higher in cholesterol than red meat, others lower.

* All dairy products, including milk, yogurt, and cheese. All are loaded with fat and cholesterol. Low-fat dairy products are not recommended because of potential health hazards, including allergies, childhood diabetes, arthritis, and lactose intolerance.

* All oil, including olive, safflower, peanut, and corn oil. Oil is simply a liquid form of fat.

* All eggs. Eggs are abundant in fat and cholesterol.

* Nuts, seeds, avocados, olives, and soybean products (including tofu, soy cheese, and soy milk). Soybean products are high in fat, unless they have been specially processed (low-fat varieties are also not recommended).

* All dried fruit and fruit juices

* All flour products, such as breads, bagels, and pretzels. The less a food is processed the better it is for weight loss. Flour products are composed of fragments of grain, or relatively small particles, which increase absorption and slow weight loss.



Mirkin:

Quote:

The Basic 15 Grams

Fruits, vegetables, whole grains, and beans are to be the basis of the diet. You can eat as much of these as you want to feel comfortably full and satisfied.

5 Choice Grams

Each day you may consume up to 5 additional grams of fat per day as you please. Anything else you eat that has 1 gram or more of fat on the label needs to be counted.

High-Fat Foods to Avoid

* All bakery products except no-fat breads

* All dairy products except skim milk and fat-free yogurt or cheeses

* All meats (yes, that includes chicken and turkey)

* Avocados

* Cookies, crackers and chips

* Eggs

* Mayonnaise and salad dressings (except fat free)

* Nuts, peanuts and coconuts

* Oils, margarine, butter, shortening and lard

* Seeds

* Soybeans and soybean products such as tofu

These foods add variety to a low-fat diet, but don't eat them in unlimited quantities.

* Skim milk and skim-milk products (one serving = 1 cup)

* Refined grain products with 0 to 1 gram of fat per serving (one serving = about 100 calories, that's about one medium-size pita bread or 1/2 cup of pasta or couscous)

* Sugar and sugary foods (one serving = about 100 calories, that's 2 tablespoons of jam or 1 ounce of jelly beans)



Source: http://www.fatfree.com/diets.html



Now, I was under the impression that a healthy vegan diet needed plenty of monounsaturaled and polyunsaturated fats, from things like nuts and avocados, both of which are not allowed on these plans.
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#2 Old 05-23-2004, 07:37 AM
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Ive lost from 323lbs to 264 using McDougalls Maximum Weight Loss. I find it easy to follow and when Im hungry I eat. I want to lose around 100 additional pounds. My goal is to weigh between 160 and 170.





My typical day:



I drink lots of water, I run 40 minutes before and after work on the weekends I run an hour straight on an eleptical runner. I keep my heart rate around the target rate for fat burning.



take a daily vitamin.



do crunches when watching tv or load times when playing video games.



eat, eat, eat, and eat some more. eat when your hungry drink water otherwise.



avoid fat like the plague. the fat you eat is the fat you wear. the fat I get is from whole grains and green and yellow vegetables



avoid soy, bread, fruit juice, dried fruit as if it was an animal.



I think Im obsessed with being healthy thin wispy and rock solid again.
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#3 Old 05-23-2004, 08:06 AM
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WOW Mr. Parker. I am impressed!



I have done the McDougal. It is what got me from vegetarian to vegan. My blood pressure and cholesterol dropped to impressively low levels but I did not loose one pound of the thirty that I had hoped to loose. I followed the regular Twelve Day Program. My exercise was power walking in the AM before school and trail (? walking? I made a point of rushing up the side of the mountain but was too kind to my shins to run). I only did it for about seven months. When my husband and I started traveling in the summer I stopped regular exercise and did not pick it back up when school started again in fall.
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#4 Old 05-23-2004, 08:36 AM
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thank you

My blood pressure went from scary levels of 150/110 (sometimes higher (160's/110's), sometimes around 145/110's) to.. wait a second I will check it this morning. 116/72. not too bad. The last time (about a week ago) I had my cholesterol checked the total was 163. Not too bad. The bad part is the weight I gained while at college. Eating pizza and beer from breakfast, lunch and dinner. sodas in between the beer. gum to hide the beer smell and a lot of cologne. Sounds like a nice guy, huh? lots of depression, paranoia, anxiety attacks and romancing suicide during that period of my life. but all thats changed, Im happy for 90% of the time.



I went from 171lbs to 323 lbs. people looked at me like I was a blowfish all puffed out, some still do. but Im losing weight.
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#5 Old 05-23-2004, 08:43 AM
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I've never heard of Shintani, but that plan is just a replica of the food pyramid so that sounds the most sensible.



I've read McDougall's book and heard him speak, but I have not tried his diet.
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#6 Old 05-23-2004, 09:31 AM
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Soy, bread, fruit juice, dried fruit, and fat are all healthy. You need fat for long-term health.



I don't follow these fear-fat diets. And that's what they are - diets. Eat in moderation, get 5-10 fruits and veggies a day, eat whole grains, get your calcium...this is not rocket science.
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#7 Old 05-23-2004, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kristadb View Post

Soy, bread, fruit juice, dried fruit, and fat are all healthy. You need fat for long-term health.



I don't follow these fear-fat diets. And that's what they are - diets. Eat in moderation, get 5-10 fruits and veggies a day, eat whole grains, get your calcium...this is not rocket science.



The problem is its always the wrong type of fat that people live on.



Also walking will help you keep in shape but not lose weight. You need to at least be jogging for your metabolism to kick start.
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#8 Old 05-23-2004, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kristadb View Post

Soy, bread, fruit juice, dried fruit, and fat are all healthy. You need fat for long-term health.



I don't follow these fear-fat diets. And that's what they are - diets. Eat in moderation, get 5-10 fruits and veggies a day, eat whole grains, get your calcium...this is not rocket science.





How much weight have you lost?
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#9 Old 05-23-2004, 11:53 AM
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i don't think krista was talking about losing weight, but being healthy, regardless of your weight.
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#10 Old 05-23-2004, 12:20 PM
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But, mayu, if you're skinny, that automatically makes you healthy right? /sarcasm
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#11 Old 05-23-2004, 12:58 PM
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Well, I've lost sixty pounds, Peter, not avoiding fat in the least. So I think we can safely say that nobody needs to go low-fat to lose weight.



Frankly, I think these diets are stupid for anyone except patients with severe heart disease (who, incidentally, are the people that Ornish developed his diet for originally.) Whole-food fats, like avocados, soybeans, and nuts, are not only good for you--they're vital. You need that fat for your brain and nervous system function. There are much better ways to lose weight than by stopping eating healthy foods.



Whole grains in moderation are good, but 8-13 servings a day? You'd do well to get your calories from foods with a little more nutrition, rather than just oodles of starch. Some of those foods with more nutrition include--surprise!--avocados, nuts, and other "bad" foods.



These diets are certainly healthier than eating pizza and beer all the time. If the choice was between the pizza and beer diet and the McDougall diet, OK, go for McDougall. But it's certainly not one of the healthiest ways you can eat.



Raylea, if you're looking for a really scientifically sound, effective vegan diet plan, I'd look at Joel Fuhrman's Eat to Live (yes, I know I always plug this book, but for good reason!) It's based on the concept of nutrient-density, and is way more balanced and logical than any of these super-low-fat plans.
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#12 Old 05-23-2004, 01:07 PM
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hey If I can find a better way to be healthy, I would do this.



MollyGoat, I thought of you yesterday at borders and barnes and noble, neither place had the Eat To Live book. I think Im going to amazon for it.





Update: just called Book a Millon, they have it. Im headed there now. thanks MollyGoat! Rock on!
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#13 Old 05-23-2004, 04:49 PM
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hey got the book! I'm reading through it now, thanks
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#14 Old 05-23-2004, 05:05 PM
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Glad you're enjoying it--it really is a great book. One of the things I like about the plan is that it's totally possible to implement some of Fuhrman's ideas and principles without going all the way if that's not realistic (which it isn't for me right now.)
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#15 Old 05-23-2004, 06:06 PM
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I can't speak for any of the other diets you posted, but I'm following the McDougall MWL plan right now. I weighed about 240 when I started, down to 231, and I haven't found it to be overly hard; of course I miss tofu, etc., but on the whole it's pretty similar to how I cooked before, I just take out the oil, don't use tofu, take the extra time to cook brown rice and not white rice, etc.



As for the fats issue, if you look on the McDougall page under the 12-day plan, you see that he recommends adding oily food like tofu and nuts back into your diet after following that particular plan -- which would, I think, make it more like a standard vegan way of eating. A lot of the recipes given in the newsletters do include tofu, etc. The MWL plan, which differs from the everyday plan in a few more ways as well, is very definitely a diet, and an extremely strict one at that, and not a way of living.



I suppose it's like anything else: do what you're comfortable with.
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#16 Old 05-23-2004, 07:19 PM
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Quote:
from NDvegan85:

But, mayu, if you're skinny, that automatically makes you healthy right? /sarcasm



No, but there is a connection. Fat people tend to have more health problems.
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#17 Old 05-23-2004, 07:59 PM
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but often, these health problems are the result of an unhealthy lifestyle and not necessarily weight... i had a lot more health problems when i was a "healthy weight" than when i was "overweight" because i had a less healthy lifestyle when i was lighter *shrug*
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#18 Old 05-23-2004, 11:55 PM
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raylea: The majority of those diets are ovo-lacto vegetarian, not vegan. From what I gather, only McDougall's diet is vegan.
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#19 Old 05-29-2005, 12:31 PM
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I've gotta disagree with Frost. Walking WILL help you lose weight, depending where your body is when you start. I lost about thirty pounds by watching my intake of fats/refined foods and walking vigorously 5 days a week for at least 40 minutes. My body size/health would not have been able to handle the jogging/running as I had previously lived a mostly sedentary existence. Even now, my knees wouldn't put up with the beating that jogging/running would give them. It is possible to push yourself and lose by walking- it is all about the speed and duration.
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#20 Old 05-29-2005, 12:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bunnygirlKC View Post

I've gotta disagree with Frost. Walking WILL help you lose weight, depending where your body is when you start. I lost about thirty pounds by watching my intake of fats/refined foods and walking vigorously 5 days a week for at least 40 minutes. My body size/health would not have been able to handle the jogging/running as I had previously lived a mostly sedentary existence. Even now, my knees wouldn't put up with the beating that jogging/running would give them. It is possible to push yourself and lose by walking- it is all about the speed and duration.



Definately! I also lost 30 lbs (and kept it off - 4 years and counting), by walking everyday and eating a healthy vegan diet that included fruits, vegetables, grains, beans, soy, nuts, and vegetable oils. Never even had to count a calorie or a fat gram
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#21 Old 05-29-2005, 06:18 PM
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my mum has lost a lot of weight by walking daily, as have i
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#22 Old 05-29-2005, 11:48 PM
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raylea, I have been using a low-fat vegan plan called "Eat to Live". To answer your question about the fats being required on any vegan or vegetarian plan...it depends on the fat. The omega-3 is essential for anyone, especially for any vegan or other vegetarian, and not just any food will provide enough of them. Avocado does not provide omega-3, nor do most margarines, nor dairy, nor processed salad/cooking oils like olive, sesame, walnut, safflower, corn oil, nor soybean oil. These very high calorie processed oils are refined and lack fiber, vitamins, minerals, and phyto-nutrients. Raw nuts like walnuts and seeds like ground flax are whole foods and loaded with omega-3. Some green leafy veggies also have omega-3, but you will need to eat alot of them.



Joel Fuhrman, MD designed "Eat to Live" and has an aggressive weight loss plan for strict or not so strict vegetarians, and other vegan or vegetarian plans depending on how fast one wants to lose the weight or what their health issues may be. Like Ornish, McDougal, et al he is a vegan Doc, but the difference is E2L concentrates on water based veggies, raw fruit, legumes, some starch, raw ground flax, and some raw nuts (nuts are an option). He specifically excludes the high amount of starchy veggies and high amount of whole grains so common in some vegan weight loss plans.



I have followed the aggressive weight loss plan with good results. It will really put the glaring light on those foods that hinder weight loss or cause one to gain.

1. At least one pound of raw veggies, green veggies preferred, and green leafy veggies being the top choice.

2. At least one pound of cooked non-starchy veggies; the greens being the first and best choice.

3. At least four servings of whole,raw fruit (no juices allowed for aggressive weight loss).

4. One cup of cooked starchy veggie or whole grains. More is OK if one's metabolism is not slow or for higher energy needs.

5. One cup of beans, lentils, or other legumes. Tofu is OK as is temph, but watch the fat in them.

6. One tablespoon of ground, raw flax.

7. Optional - one ounce of raw nuts or raw seeds (these does not include the ground flax which is everyday).



This is the aggressive plan in a nutshell. It is very, very high in water based veggies, raw fruit, and legumes. Weight loss is guaranteed if the plan is followed and it isn't hard to stick with it since it is an all you can eat kind of plan. The weight loss will soon begin.



He has a book on this with the same title. He also has a web site. There is also a Yahoo discussion/support group for it.

I do this plan and it works.
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#23 Old 05-30-2005, 03:22 AM
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When I don't eat much fat, my hair goes brittle and frizzy. That can't be a good sign.
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