Thinking about eating meat after 7 years (need a carb alternative) - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 10-23-2013, 03:51 PM
 
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I stopped eating meat 7 years ago for ethical reasons but have recently had thoughts of going back. Not for taste or nutrition but weight loss. I am very sensitive to carbs, my insulin spikes with just a piece of bread. I am not diabetic or anything but I noticed that even with minimal carbs in my diet I find it next to impossible to lose weight. At my heaviest I was 210lbs and currently I am 185lbs. My BMI weight says I should be around 150lbs. I find it impossible to lose these last remaining 35lbs and the rest I managed only though starvation which made me very sluggish and weak both mentally and physically.

 

I think most vegetarians replace the need for meat with carbs, since carbs are filling and the main source of energy used by the body and they can supplement for lack of protein through shakes, beans or tofu. But what to do when you can't have either meat or carbs?

 

Speaking of tofu I recently began to avoid that as well after finding out it has chemicals that behave like estrogen and I being a male would rather not have copious amounts of that in my body. It was one thing I was eating heavily to replace carbs but now I can't have that either. Same for anything sweet as sugar is the only thing worse than carbs in causing insulin spikes forcing the body to go into fat storage mode.

 

Anyway just reaching out before I make the shift as a last ditch attempt of sorts because I really don't want to start eating meat but I feel I have no other choice at the moment.

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#2 Old 10-23-2013, 05:29 PM
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Just a quick thought how about low carb veggies and use Earth Balance or Veganaise which both come in soy free & low carb smiley.gif Quinoa is high protein and a healthy carb instead of rice or pasta .... a lil research may help on vegan low carb diets .... goodluck smiley.gif
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#3 Old 10-23-2013, 05:48 PM
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Also noodles made with Konjac low in carb no soy and filling a lil research on things made with konjac may be helpful too ....
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#4 Old 10-23-2013, 08:07 PM
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Do you exercise? When I want to lose weight I walk more.
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#5 Old 10-23-2013, 11:15 PM
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Your insulin level is suppose to increase after you eat carbohydrate rich food, this is the normal functioning of the body. Are you having blood sugar problems that have been diagnosed via blood work?

Though it may sell diet books, you can't meaningfully generalize about "carbs". The only carbohydrate rich foods that have been shown to promote weight gain are foods rich in refined carbohydrates (white flour, sugar, etc).

Replace the junk carbohydrates with carbohydrates from whole foods. A diet rich in legumes, whole grains, fruits and vegetables has been consistently linked with lower BMIs......on the other hand meat consumption is consistently linked to higher BMIs. Eating meat as a weight loss strategy isn't consistent with mainstream science, why would you sacrifice your ethics for a fad diet?

Eating moderate amounts of tofu isn't a problem for men.
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#6 Old 10-23-2013, 11:35 PM
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Yes, to all the things above! (Especially Logic's).

One suggestion I can give, as far as any pasta dishes are concerned, is green beans. If you steam them, then put them in place of the pasta, that's one way to cut down on the kind of carbs you might want to avoid. It doesn't taste exactly like pasta, but it's a pretty good alternative.

When you say "minimum carbs" what are you talking about? Could you give us a run down of what you're eating in a regular day?

To reiterate what Logic says, about estrogen and tofu, my partner has been eating tofu (and consuming large amounts of soy milk and other soy products) and he's still incredibly manly looking. So, you should be okay with the levels in there.

Best of luck.
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#7 Old 10-24-2013, 03:53 AM
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All the Chinese men I have met who grew up eating tofu and other soy based products have massive boobs.
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#8 Old 10-24-2013, 04:33 AM
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I'm a Chinese man who grew up eating tofu and other soy products, on estimate at least 5 servings a week.

Anyway, nutritionfacts recommends no more than 3-5 servings a day. I think you should be fine if you keep to that.

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#9 Old 10-24-2013, 04:39 AM
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If you are having 'insulin spikes' then you need to look more closely at the glycemic index (GI) of your foods. Choosing low GI foods or mixing high/medium GI foodstuffs with low GI ones will help to reduce 'highs and lows'

It is surprising what foods are in the High GI list - baked potato and watermelon for example.

The way you cook your food, the length you cook it for, the ripeness of fruit/veg etc. all has an effect on the glycemic index. It's quite complex but defintiely worth looking into and seeing how your body responds to a low GI diet.

http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/Glycemic_index_and_glycemic_load_for_100_foods.htm

http://www.weightlossresources.co.uk/diet/gi_diet/glycaemic_index_tables.htm
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#10 Old 10-24-2013, 09:49 AM
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Also keep in mind that insulin isn't solely linked to cards. Meat also causes insulin spikes. Fat also influences the efficacity of insulin. A low-fat diet does wonders in helping to control insulin spikes. And yes, to some extent, you DO want insulin to rise after eating, that's how your energy from food gets into your cells!
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#11 Old 10-24-2013, 10:24 AM
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I've heard Robert Cheeke talk about weight loss on a vegan diet when incorporating exercise, and his conclusion that a combination of intense lifting followed by light cardio is the best method. This exercise routine is done in the morning in a fasted state, drinking only water. Such routines such as Strong lifts 5x5 (the program I follow) or Starting strength are good programs for beginners. This would be followed by 30 minutes or so on an elliptical, treadmill, bicycle or similar. Eating afterwards of course, preferably something with higher protein. Although weight gain has been my goal, I have done this routine with as little as a banana before and it's been OK for me.

Even eating higher protein foods such as the traditional bodybuilders chicken breast, weight loss would still be challenging. Come check out veganbodybuilding.com for more info, it's open to anyone with an interest in plant based diets. It's possible you can loose this weight with just a dietary approach, but it will be much easier with consistent exercise.
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#12 Old 10-24-2013, 12:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Yingchen View Post

I'm a Chinese man who grew up eating tofu and other soy products, on estimate at least 5 servings a week.
.

 



What's your cup size? tongue3.gif
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#13 Old 10-24-2013, 12:33 PM
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While we're on the topic of estrogen, you should be aware that meat and especially dairy contain a significant amount of actual estrogen.
http://m.annonc.oxfordjournals.org/content/20/9/1610.full
Just so you are aware, estrogen is an important and necessary hormone in many animals in regulating growth. Thus you will find it in the meat and milk of animals you eat.
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#14 Old 10-25-2013, 11:35 PM
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I've heard Robert Cheeke talk about weight loss on a vegan diet when incorporating exercise, and his conclusion that a combination of intense lifting followed by light cardio is the best method. This exercise routine is done in the morning in a fasted state, drinking only water
People selling books always come up with some gimmick, but weight loss is primarily about diet and the sort of diet that promotes healthy body weight can be found in just about any nutrition 101 textbook. Of course....nobody makes money off that so we have hundreds of diet books, exercise routines, etc.

While exercise can make weight loss easier, it really doesn't matter what you do. Go play baseball, ride your bike, wash your car, etc..... I think its easier to remain active if your activities actually accomplish something.
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#15 Old 10-26-2013, 10:18 AM
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People selling books always come up with some gimmick, but weight loss is primarily about diet and the sort of diet that promotes healthy body weight can be found in just about any nutrition 101 textbook. Of course....nobody makes money off that so we have hundreds of diet books, exercise routines, etc.

While exercise can make weight loss easier, it really doesn't matter what you do. Go play baseball, ride your bike, wash your car, etc..... I think its easier to remain active if your activities actually accomplish something.

It's true that weight loss is primarily about diet, a diet based of junk fast food and oreos will be virtually impossible to get healthy. I believe a plant based diet based on the Power plate or My plate model is fairly optimal, using plants for the protein and dairy group.

With regards to the exercise program I described, the thinking is that lifting in a fasted state will metabolize the majority of your glycogen stores and towards the end put you in a mild state of ketosis. The subsequent light cardio would then metabolize your adipose tissue for the calories burned. At 9 kcal per gram, you would loose theoretically however much effort you put in. The body does not run optimally in this state, which is why only light cardio is suggested.
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#16 Old 10-26-2013, 10:22 AM
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I agree with you logic It is more fun that way ! smiley.gif
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#17 Old 10-27-2013, 01:54 AM
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With regards to the exercise program I described, the thinking is that lifting in a fasted state will metabolize the majority of your glycogen stores and towards the end put you in a mild state of ketosis. The subsequent light cardio would then metabolize your adipose tissue for the calories burned. At 9 kcal per gram, you would loose theoretically however much effort you put in. The body does not run optimally in this state, which is why only light cardio is suggested.
There have been a lot of gimmicks like this over the years and perhaps even some of them help you lose weight a little faster, but eating well and being relatively active will put you in a healthy weight range over the long-haul so why bother with these complex gimmicks?
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#18 Old 10-27-2013, 01:21 PM
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This method of lowering body fat percentage is intended more for people who already mastered how to eat healthily, but would like to loose some extra stubborn fat. Walking or leisurely cycling has great cardiovascular benefits, but if you have a stomach full of carbohydrates and full glycogen stores you aren't going to be dipping into your fat reserves. The term 'bonking' cyclists use to describe low blood sugar after they have depleted their glycogen is the same idea I'm describing. At that point, the body is looking for other fuel besides carbs because it's already been used. Bonking is unpleasant and can be dangerous, like the time after I bonked in the middle of a state park cycling relying on dum-dums to get me to a grocery store. From then on I always carried a bunch of dates in my cycle bag.
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#19 Old 10-27-2013, 04:31 PM
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This method of lowering body fat percentage is intended more for people who already mastered how to eat healthily, but would like to loose some extra stubborn fat. Walking or leisurely cycling has great cardiovascular benefits, but if you have a stomach full of carbohydrates and full glycogen stores you aren't going to be dipping into your fat reserves. The term 'bonking' cyclists use to describe low blood sugar after they have depleted their glycogen is the same idea I'm describing. At that point, the body is looking for other fuel besides carbs because it's already been used. Bonking is unpleasant and can be dangerous, like the time after I bonked in the middle of a state park cycling relying on dum-dums to get me to a grocery store. From then on I always carried a bunch of dates in my cycle bag.


..... Bonking means something different where I come from. :p

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#20 Old 10-27-2013, 06:21 PM
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..... Bonking means something different where I come from. tongue3.gif

grin.gif I suppose you could bonk from bonking given enough time.
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#21 Old 10-27-2013, 10:41 PM
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This method of lowering body fat percentage is intended more for people who already mastered how to eat healthily, but would like to loose some extra stubborn fat.
What exactly is "extra stubborn fat"? I have been talking about getting your BMI into a healthy range which can be achieved with diet and basic activity...it sounds like you may be talking about trying to achieve some sort of aesthetic result by achieving a below normal percent of body fat.
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Walking or leisurely cycling has great cardiovascular benefits, but if you have a stomach full of carbohydrates and full glycogen stores you aren't going to be dipping into your fat reserves.
Even if you have a lot of available carbohydrates your body is going to utilize fats for energy and if there are few fats available your body will release them from your fat cells. But its total energy input that matters, during a normal day of eating and activity the body is going to both add (after meals) to and take from (while sleeping, between meals) glycogen and fat stores. So one maintains a healthy weight by maintaining energy balance and that happens automatically if one is eating a proper diet.
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#22 Old 10-28-2013, 12:34 AM
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What exactly is "extra stubborn fat"? I have been talking about getting your BMI into a healthy range which can be achieved with diet and basic activity...it sounds like you may be talking about trying to achieve some sort of aesthetic result by achieving a below normal percent of body fat.
Even if you have a lot of available carbohydrates your body is going to utilize fats for energy and if there are few fats available your body will release them from your fat cells. But its total energy input that matters, during a normal day of eating and activity the body is going to both add (after meals) to and take from (while sleeping, between meals) glycogen and fat stores. So one maintains a healthy weight by maintaining energy balance and that happens automatically if one is eating a proper diet.

The extra fat was referring to the OP's 35 lbs he wants to loose to get to his preferred BMI, I'm assuming its been 'stubborn' by being hard to get rid of.

What you say is true, however you can focus on these individual processes by either eating a large amount of pasta the night before a Marathon to have more fuel or doing a workout fasted to burn more fat. Some studies show eating a large amount of carbohydrates immediately after a workout increases our glycogen storage capacity. Our bodies prefer using carbohydrates for fuel, and will primarily use them than fat or protein given the choice. Studies have shown the performance of endurance athletes to be most efficient when eating a high carbohydrate diet, compared to high protein or high fat.

Yes, if you are hitting your calorie needs for either loosing or maintaing weight you will likely hit or stay at that weight. I was able to gain weight primarily by paying attention to hit my Calorie goal and exercise regularly. Our bodies can all benefit from a combination of resistance and cardiovascular exercises, so giving someone another reason to get into a gym can't hurt.
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#23 Old 10-28-2013, 09:50 PM
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The extra fat was referring to the OP's 35 lbs he wants to loose to get to his preferred BMI, I'm assuming its been 'stubborn' by being hard to get rid of.
From reading the OP it sounded as if the OP was overweight and trying to get their BMI into the normal range (I assumed mid-normal), getting into this range shouldn't require any special tricks.....a proper diet with modest activity should do it.
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Our bodies prefer using carbohydrates for fuel, and will primarily use them than fat or protein given the choice. Studies have shown the performance of endurance athletes to be most efficient when eating a high carbohydrate diet, compared to high protein or high fat.
What the bodies prefers to use depends on a number of variables, its hard to make any generalizations because there are so many variables. As for protein, it can't be utilized for energy and has to be first converted into carbohydrates so on this level carbohydrates and protein are equivalent. Given this, its pretty strange on popular high protein/low carbohydrate diets are......
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Yes, if you are hitting your calorie needs for either loosing or maintaing weight you will likely hit or stay at that weight. I was able to gain weight primarily by paying attention to hit my Calorie goal and exercise regularly. Our bodies can all benefit from a combination of resistance and cardiovascular exercises, so giving someone another reason to get into a gym can't hurt.
I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve, but one should be able to maintain a healthy weight without calorie counting or any other gimmick so long as they are following a proper diet.

I would encourage people to make lifestyle changes that increase their physical activity throughout the day from useful activities and not rely on gyms for physical activity.
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#24 Old 11-01-2013, 11:50 AM
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Vegetarians have better insulin sensitivity and lower rates of diabetes than omnivores. This is thought to be because vegetarians consume more fibre, and don't consume heme iron. 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2995635

http://advances.nutrition.org/content/4/4/403.abstract

 

Another reason that your plan is likely to fail is that the average vegetarian consumes 500 calories fewer each day than the average omnivore. Vegans even less. In one study, vegetarians actually ate more in terms of food volume, but still had fewer calories, as plant products are less calorie dense. Hunger is also reduced on a healthy version of a vegetarian diet, because it will contain more hunger-suppressing fibre than even the healthiest omnivorous diet of equal calories.

 

Then there's the increase in basal metabolic rate that comes from a plant-based diet, and the (possibly related?) prevention of long-term damage to your thyroid gland by cutting out blood-pH-raising foods, which include all animal products.

 

Finally, there's the fact that farmed animals are fed antibiotics which were originally designed to make THEM fat by destroying their gut flora balance (this motive is now officially illegal in some countries, but they're still given them routinely, with other excuses and loopholes), and which it now turns out, also make their consumers sicker and fatter.

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#25 Old 11-01-2013, 01:52 PM
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I'd like to hear what tk has come up with, but he hasn't been back since his first post.
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I stopped eating meat 7 years ago for ethical reasons but have recently had thoughts of going back. Not for taste or nutrition but weight loss. I am very sensitive to carbs, my insulin spikes with just a piece of bread. I am not diabetic or anything but I noticed that even with minimal carbs in my diet I find it next to impossible to lose weight.

A literal interpretation of minimal carbs would imply ketosis, but I doubt OP means this. As dairy contains the carbohydrate lactose, minimal would also exclude this as well as most fruits, tubers and grains. If OP is trying to manage a paleo/primal/eco-atkins/keto/caveman vegetarian hybrid diet, I would love to hear about it. The fact is that the ADA recommends a DASH diet, which can easily be vegan, and includes carbohydrates as the main macro nutrient source. Under the 2010 dietary guidelines, calories from carbohydrates should comprise 45-65% calories from carbohydrates, 10-35% protein and 20-35% fat. This is based of many more studies than snake oil diet peddlers would push. Take a look at this enlightenmening info here.http://cnpp.usda.gov/Publications/DietaryGuidelines/2010/PolicyDoc/Chapter2.pdf

[/quote] At my heaviest I was 210lbs and currently I am 185lbs. My BMI weight says I should be around 150lbs. I find it impossible to lose these last remaining 35lbs and the rest I managed only though starvation which made me very sluggish and weak both mentally and physically.

I think most vegetarians replace the need for meat with carbs, since carbs are filling and the main source of energy used by the body and they can supplement for lack of protein through shakes, beans or tofu. But what to do when you can't have either meat or carbs? [/quote]

I'm assuming the 'need for meat' was a calorie need. Not all vegetarian protein foods are so black and white as carb or protein or fat, often there is a combination of the macros. Eating by the FDA guidelines, it's quite hard to not fall into the protein range. If you're planning on not eating carbs again, you're going to have a bad time. Have you not opened a nutrition textbook or FDA database?

[/quote] Speaking of tofu I recently began to avoid that as well after finding out it has chemicals that behave like estrogen and I being a male would rather not have copious amounts of that in my body. It was one thing I was eating heavily to replace carbs but now I can't have that either. Same for anything sweet as sugar is the only thing worse than carbs in causing insulin spikes forcing the body to go into fat storage mode. [/quote]

Your starvation diet has put you in fat storage mode, friend. What has been your calorie target, and have you consistently been meeting it?

[/quote] Anyway just reaching out before I make the shift as a last ditch attempt of sorts because I really don't want to start eating meat but I feel I have no other choice at the moment.
[/quote]

This is a false dichotomy and you've already made up your mind. Feeling you have no choice but to eat meat is very different from feeling like you want to loose weight on a vegetarian diet.
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#26 Old 11-02-2013, 09:27 PM
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very interesting

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#27 Old 11-03-2013, 04:21 AM
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This is a false dichotomy and you've already made up your mind. Feeling you have no choice but to eat meat is very different from feeling like you want to loose weight on a vegetarian diet.

:up:

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#28 Old 11-03-2013, 10:31 AM
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I'd like to hear what tk has come up with, but he hasn't been back since his first post.
A lot of posts like this seem to be from shills, they typically contain a number of marketing themes used by the animal industries. This one working off the "carbs make you fat", "sugar is the devil" and "soy gives men boobies" themes.
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#29 Old 11-03-2013, 01:25 PM
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Hmmmmm

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