The China Study is wrong? - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 02-23-2011, 03:58 PM
Newbie
 
orb85750's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 41
T. Colin Campbell concluded many things from The China Study. One of those conclusions was that high protein diets are bad for bone health, since the epidemiology showed that those who ate more protein had a greater chance of osteo problems. However, as detailed by a few direct peer-reviewed studies over the past couple of years, it turns out that the opposite is true... In fact, higher protein diets promote bone health. Does that call into question some other conclusions of The China Study in your mind???
orb85750 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 02-23-2011, 04:13 PM
Veggie Regular
 
SomebodyElse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In a California Ghost Town
Posts: 7,245
No. Those "peers" were probably hired by the beef council.

www.thesaucyvegan.com
SomebodyElse is offline  
#3 Old 02-23-2011, 04:37 PM
Super Moderator
 
silva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 8,954
The China Study wasn't the first to discover high protein levels leach calcium from bones. It's a fact the dairy and meat industry likes to gloss over with all the benefits of protein and calcium.
I'll stick with greens and beans, thank you.
Somebodyelse is correct in that so much research in nutrition is paid, or actually done by the meat and dairy industry. Like Weston Price Foundation!

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
silva is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#4 Old 02-23-2011, 04:45 PM
Newbie
 
orb85750's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 41
I truly wish it were that simple, but there are several studies now from researchers in several countries that all appear to agree, in contrast with The China Study epidemiological conclusions.
orb85750 is offline  
#5 Old 02-23-2011, 04:58 PM
Veggie Regular
 
SomebodyElse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In a California Ghost Town
Posts: 7,245
Even if it's true, why can't you get all the protein you think you need from plants? A one hundred calorie portion of broccoli has more protein than the same 100 calorie portion of steak, and no fat. It'll also yield alkaline salts after digestion, whereas steak will yield acid salts. Still no argument against eating a plant based diet.

www.thesaucyvegan.com
SomebodyElse is offline  
#6 Old 02-23-2011, 05:03 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Josh James xVx's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,097
A lot of the stuff from the China Study has been brought into scrutiny by other pro-vegan health professionals in recent years. It's not necessarily been "debunked" but if we're going to be honest with ourselves and how we promote vegan health we should consider the weight of more recent studies.

Jack Norris for instance points out on his page for bone health:

Quote:
Protein As mentioned above, there is a theory that protein, especially through the sulfur-containing amino acids, increases the renal acid load, causing calcium to be excreted in the urine. Sulfur-containing amino acids are more prevalent in animal products, although they are also found in high amounts in many grains. The counter to this argument is that protein also causes an increase of calcium absorption from the gut which counteracts the loss of calcium in the urine (29).
An interesting article on the subject is Dietary Protein and Calcium: Are They Friends or Foes? from the Summer 2004 issue of The Soy Connection. The article concludes:

Recent evidence has demonstrated that increased intake of common proteins does not necessarily affect bone health adversely. The composition of the protein source as well as co-existing factors in the total diet determines the renal acid load. In healthy individuals consuming high protein foods, in the context of typical mixed diets, the renal acid load does not seem to reach a "threshold" that affects calcium homeostasis.

A meta-analysis looking at protein intake and bone health was published in December 2009 in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition (33). It included seven cohort studies that looked at protein intake and fracture risk and concluded:

Overall, the weight of the evidence shows that the effect of dietary protein on the skeleton appears to be favorable to a small extent or, at least, is not detrimental. However, the long-term clinical importance of the effect is unclear, and a reduction in fracture risk was not seen. More research is required to resolve the protein debate. In the meantime the protein intakes and balance of different protein sources as indicated in the current healthy eating guidelines represent appropriate dietary advice.

More excerpts from the above study can be found at JackNorrisRD.com.
While it still seems possible that eating two or more times the RDA for protein might increase the risk of osteoporosis, the research below indicates that in typical free-living populations, animal protein is not a significant problem for the bone health of meat-eaters or lacto-ovo vegetarians.


Tam! RUGH!
Josh James xVx is offline  
#7 Old 02-23-2011, 05:37 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Doktormartini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,456
Quote:
Originally Posted by orb85750 View Post

I truly wish it were that simple, but there are several studies now from researchers in several countries that all appear to agree, in contrast with The China Study epidemiological conclusions.

Links to studies plz?

“May all sentient beings be free of pain and suffering.  May all sentient beings experience eternal joy and happiness.  gate gate pāragate pārasaṃgate bodhi svāhā.”
http://www.facebook.com/doktormartini
http://twitter.com/#!/MartyBaureis
http://doktormartini.tumblr.com

Doktormartini is offline  
#8 Old 02-23-2011, 05:39 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Doktormartini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,456
http://www.webmd.com/osteoporosis/ne...pair-bone-loss

Maybe it's that high animal protein can cause bone loss.

“May all sentient beings be free of pain and suffering.  May all sentient beings experience eternal joy and happiness.  gate gate pāragate pārasaṃgate bodhi svāhā.”
http://www.facebook.com/doktormartini
http://twitter.com/#!/MartyBaureis
http://doktormartini.tumblr.com

Doktormartini is offline  
#9 Old 02-24-2011, 01:03 PM
Newbie
 
orb85750's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 41
You find the studies easily via Google. Just search under "protein and bone health" and look at the first few pages. (For the record, I have been vegan since 1993, and that will never change.)
orb85750 is offline  
#10 Old 02-24-2011, 02:13 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Irizary's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 8,743
The problem with nutrition studies is tht they're notoriously inconclusive. Remember back when no one was supposed to eat eggs, and then everyone was supposed to eat eggs, because the studies kept showing different things?

This is why people who are vegans (or strict vegetarians) strictly for health reasons can't really be counted upon to stay vegan. They're susceptible to next study that comes out showing you MUST eat fish oil or some other animal product.

What we know is that you can be a healthy vegan or a healthy omnivore. Hopefully people find more compelling reasons to become or stay vegan than that they think it's the only diet one can be healthy on.

"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

Every animal you eat
was running for her life

Irizary is offline  
#11 Old 02-26-2011, 10:47 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Lothar M Kirsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Cologne
Posts: 2,144
Good to hear this, I thought you were a troll, when I've read your question!

If I'm not answering quickly enough - leave a note on Twitter for @Rheumatologe
Lothar M Kirsch is offline  
#12 Old 02-26-2011, 10:06 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,529
Can you copy paste them, I have to much studying to do for Google searches. I'd rather just bookmark this thread and click then links provided and read them. If you don't mind, of course.
KrisMTL is offline  
#13 Old 03-23-2011, 03:14 PM
Newbie
 
orb85750's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 41
Don't take my word for it. Look at this article by Ginny Messina, a very well-known vegan nutritionist.

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/lifest...the-vegan-way/

Here's the relevant part about protein:

"Eat enough protein. The old thinking was that protein leached calcium from bones. Newer research suggests that this isn’t true—and as long as your calcium intake is sufficient, protein is good for your bones. Include at least 3 servings a day of legumes (cooked dried beans, peanuts, or soyfoods) in your diet. Nuts, whole grains and vegetables also provide protein. Soy products like tofu, tempeh and fortified soymilk do double duty in this regard since they provide both calcium and protein."
orb85750 is offline  
#14 Old 03-25-2011, 01:04 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Doktormartini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,456
But doesn't high amounts of animal protein leech calcium from your bones? To counter balance the acidity?

“May all sentient beings be free of pain and suffering.  May all sentient beings experience eternal joy and happiness.  gate gate pāragate pārasaṃgate bodhi svāhā.”
http://www.facebook.com/doktormartini
http://twitter.com/#!/MartyBaureis
http://doktormartini.tumblr.com

Doktormartini is offline  
#15 Old 03-25-2011, 01:28 PM
Veggie Regular
 
SomebodyElse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In a California Ghost Town
Posts: 7,245
That's the difference. Plant protein doesn't have the same effect in general, because it is not accompanied by the same volume of acid forming minerals.

I'd have doubts about anyone who attempts to debunk the China Cornell Oxford Project though. It studied 6500 families in 65 counties in China over the course of at least a decade. No study like it has ever been made, nor will another ever be able to be made. This wasn't set up in a lab. This was a survey of real life habits of thousands of people. And it wasn't designed by vegans with any sort of agenda. These are Oxford and Cornell professors.

www.thesaucyvegan.com
SomebodyElse is offline  
#16 Old 03-27-2011, 09:31 AM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,056
i don't see how the evidence is anything but overwhelming that a plant based diet is vastly better for your health.

and on the protein side of things, i bought 25 lbs of quinoa last night .
papayamon is offline  
#17 Old 03-29-2011, 01:52 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Digger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 3,897
It's probably not appropriate to say that the China Study is 'wrong' any more than it is to say that the Atkins diet is 'wrong'. These are both books that at least in part have some merit, but cannot be relied upon exclusively as the beginning and end of nutritional wisdom. The truth is always somewhere in between.
Digger is offline  
#18 Old 03-29-2011, 02:35 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 3,056
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger View Post

It's probably not appropriate to say that the China Study is 'wrong' any more than it is to say that the Atkins diet is 'wrong'. These are both books that at least in part have some merit, but cannot be relied upon exclusively as the beginning and end of nutritional wisdom. The truth is always somewhere in between.

why does the truth need to be somewhere in between? the atkins diet is an abomination for your health. yes, if you're grossly overweight and you lose weight putting yourself in ketoacidosis, it may be "better", but very marginally. that doesn't mean there is a grain of truth in it (pun intended) as far as being optimal for health.
papayamon is offline  
#19 Old 04-04-2011, 09:29 PM
Newbie
 
orb85750's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger View Post

It's probably not appropriate to say that the China Study is 'wrong' any more than it is to say that the Atkins diet is 'wrong'. These are both books that at least in part have some merit, but cannot be relied upon exclusively as the beginning and end of nutritional wisdom. The truth is always somewhere in between.

The Atkins diet is not wrong?? That's news to me.

But as for the notion that animal protein leaches calcium from bones .... NO, that's the old thinking that Messina mentioned. (If it were true, she certainly would have said so.) She wants to promote a vegan diet, so she recommends some vegan protein sources.
orb85750 is offline  
#20 Old 04-04-2011, 09:41 PM
Veggie Regular
 
SomebodyElse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: In a California Ghost Town
Posts: 7,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by orb85750 View Post

The Atkins diet is not wrong?? That's news to me.

But as for the notion that animal protein leaches calcium from bones .... NO, that's the old thinking that Messina mentioned. (If it were true, she certainly would have said so.) She wants to promote a vegan diet, so she recommends some vegan protein sources.

No, it certainly is not "old thinking", that too much acid in the bloodstream forces the body to leach alkaline minerals from bones and teeth to neutralize it. Your blood must remain in a very tight pH range, or you will die very quickly. If all you eat is stuff that yields acid forming minerals, your body most certainly will rob alkaline minerals from your bones to adjust the pH of your blood.

I'd suggest you look up statistics for yourself, correlating rates of osteoporosis and dairy consumption, instead of believing other people who merely tell you what you want to hear.

www.thesaucyvegan.com
SomebodyElse is offline  
#21 Old 04-06-2011, 08:05 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Doktormartini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,456
It's not wrong in the sense that it will help you lose weight, as unhealthy as it is.

“May all sentient beings be free of pain and suffering.  May all sentient beings experience eternal joy and happiness.  gate gate pāragate pārasaṃgate bodhi svāhā.”
http://www.facebook.com/doktormartini
http://twitter.com/#!/MartyBaureis
http://doktormartini.tumblr.com

Doktormartini is offline  
#22 Old 04-10-2011, 10:35 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Photojess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Central NY
Posts: 3,423
Quote:
Originally Posted by orb85750 View Post

Don't take my word for it. Look at this article by Ginny Messina, a very well-known vegan nutritionist.

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/lifest...the-vegan-way/

Here's the relevant part about protein:

"Eat enough protein. The old thinking was that _______protein leached calcium from bones. Newer research suggests that this isnt trueand as long as your calcium intake is sufficient, protein is good for your bones. Include at least 3 servings a day of legumes (cooked dried beans, peanuts, or soyfoods) in your diet. Nuts, whole grains and vegetables also provide protein. Soy products like tofu, tempeh and fortified soymilk do double duty in this regard since they provide both calcium and protein."

The key word missing from this quote is animal protein. No one would agree that plant protein leaches calcium from the body. If this quote is complete as she wrote it, then she is advocating a veg diet completely, which we would all agree with.

In regards to the China study, there was a young researcher who was unknown to everyone, who tried to debunk Campbell, and Campbell basically countered all of his attacks. That can all be found online also. here is one of Campbell's videos against his critics. http://www.30bananasaday.com/group/d...ource=activity

My brand new website for health coaching, and where all of my recipes will reside!
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
previous food photography and portrait blog: www.creativeinspirationsphotography.blogspot.com

https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1435413727
Photojess is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off