"If We Don't Cut Back On Eating Meat, We're Screwed" - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 08-04-2015, 05:27 AM
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It’s a head-scratcher, this talk of enforced veganism or enforced limits on family size. They are nonstarters in an open society where public policy must respond at all to public will. Even talk of education leaves me wondering where this education would take place. In schools and on billboards and in public service messages? By whom? By our omnivore teachers and our omnivore politicians in the back pockets of omnivore food producers? The only way a tiny sliver minority gets to impose its will on the masses is when that minority is extremely wealthy. There’s not a whole lot of concentrated wealth in the five percent or so of the US population that identifies as vegan and vegetarian combined. Bill Gates (who eats meat) is backing some meat-substitute companies, which might be a foothold and something that shows how shifts happen: quietly and behind the scenes, and by guiding instead of opposing consumer preferences.

But where does that leave us as individuals? Maybe our best “billboards” as individuals, besides our vibrant, admirable, healthy, prosperous selves, are our social media platforms. I was thinking about this recently in a typical exchange, started from someone's goofball FaceBook post about how “vegetarians live nine years longer than omnivores: nine miserable, worthless, baconless years." I took this tack in chiming in: "A vegetarian will spend those extra years hiking, bicycling, traveling, making love, cane-free, less heart medicine or cognitive decline, less diabetes or cancer, more independent to the end. My parents were both meat eaters, and both made it to 89, but I wouldn't want their last years. Not the wheelchairs, the dementia, the diapers or the cancer. I might end up with all four, none of us are bulletproof. But I like my odds more than I used to like bacon.” At that point a friend predictably posted “Trying not to think about a life without bacon…” I answered, “Trying not to think about where it came from…” but then erased that one and replaced it with this: “Ray, one thing I do think about is how generous and considerate you and Ellen always are at your parties. You always set out a beautiful array of vegetarian and vegan dishes for your guests who don't eat meat.” Ray and Ellen both posted at that point, thanking me effusively for my “kind words” and reiterating how they liked to look after their veggie and vegan friends. I don’t know how many people read that, but it made me happy to see the tone shift from what had started out as a really stupid thread!
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#62 Old 08-04-2015, 08:59 AM
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The wide-spread, expanded consumption of meat by the world's people is something that has occurred just recently, in the last hundred years or so. That's barely a drop in the ocean of history, as one might say. They have done it, simply because they have been able to do so, without having to do the "dirty work" themselves, and with giving virtually no thought to the consequences. They have done it also, because they have been spurred into it by greedy profiteers, who have essentially brainwashed them into believing it is the only way they can survive- all in the name of money, of course. I think it's a little early to be making doomsday prophecies about the fate of the human race. We're in a brand new, unprecedented era of history. We're learning as we go. There is no rule book for us to consult. As more research is conducted into the effects of this meat trend, and as responsible leaders wise up to the challenges we face, the human race may yet surprise us all, by doing the right thing. It's taken only a few generations for this meat nightmare to come about. Who knows? In a few more generations it may turn itself around. In any case, I'm not ready yet to give up on our species, and write ourselves off as being fundamentally stupid or essentially suicidal.

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#63 Old 08-04-2015, 09:49 AM
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We’re not a fundamentally stupid and suicidal species, but the most rapacious among us seem empowered to wipe us all out. “Despoil and move on and repeat.” Humans might be colonizing Mars before we’re through trashing Earth. I was thinking about this in the wake of the Confederate flag/memorials controversies in the wake of the Charleston massacre. Got me googling and wikipedia-ing about the root causes of the Civil War, since so many rebel descendants are adamant it wasn’t about slavery. I had to conclude that it was mostly about the desire of planter-class slaveholders (the One-Percenters of their time) to create new slave states so they could expand their plantation operations into the Western territories, since their cotton and tobacco operations were rapidly depleting the soil of their home states. Despoil, move on, and repeat. The war was fought over slavery, which many Southerners don’t understand. But Southern soldiers were fulfilling their patriotic duty as they understood it, which is about as well as any soldier ever understands it. They answered the call to protect their home states and communities from (Yankee) invaders, and relatively few of those Southern soldiers were slaveholders themselves or benefited directly from the slave economy, which is something many Northerners don’t understand. Just as our current conflicts are so much about oil even though oil is not what motivates US soldiers to volunteer.
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#64 Old 08-04-2015, 10:28 AM
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We’re not a fundamentally stupid and suicidal species, but the most rapacious among us seem empowered to wipe us all out. “Despoil and move on and repeat.” Humans might be colonizing Mars before we’re through trashing Earth. I was thinking about this in the wake of the Confederate flag/memorials controversies in the wake of the Charleston massacre. Got me googling and wikipedia-ing about the root causes of the Civil War, since so many rebel descendants are adamant it wasn’t about slavery. I had to conclude that it was mostly about the desire of planter-class slaveholders (the One-Percenters of their time) to create new slave states so they could expand their plantation operations into the Western territories, since their cotton and tobacco operations were rapidly depleting the soil of their home states. Despoil, move on, and repeat. The war was fought over slavery, which many Southerners don’t understand. But Southern soldiers were more answering a call to protect their home communities from (Yankee) invaders, as relatively few of them were slaveholders themselves, which many Northerners don’t understand. Just as our current conflicts are so much about oil even though oil is not what motivates US soldiers to volunteer.
Those are interesting observations, Joanie. I agree, it is the "one-percenters" who have led us into so many dark places, where we might otherwise never have gone on our own. Slavery in America started just a few generations before the Civil War. Now, a few generations later, we're still mopping up, after the wickedness of an unjust elite.

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#65 Old 08-04-2015, 01:26 PM
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The wide-spread, expanded consumption of meat by the world's people is something that has occurred just recently, in the last hundred years or so. That's barely a drop in the ocean of history, as one might say. They have done it, simply because they have been able to do so, without having to do the "dirty work" themselves, and with giving virtually no thought to the consequences. They have done it also, because they have been spurred into it by greedy profiteers, who have essentially brainwashed them into believing it is the only way they can survive- all in the name of money, of course. I think it's a little early to be making doomsday prophecies about the fate of the human race. We're in a brand new, unprecedented era of history. We're learning as we go. There is no rule book for us to consult. As more research is conducted into the effects of this meat trend, and as responsible leaders wise up to the challenges we face, the human race may yet surprise us all, by doing the right thing. It's taken only a few generations for this meat nightmare to come about. Who knows? In a few more generations it may turn itself around. In any case, I'm not ready yet to give up on our species, and write ourselves off as being fundamentally stupid or essentially suicidal.
People in the West have always eaten meat. Even the poorer classes ate meat. The scale of the slaughter has increased mainly because the population has: a graph of the world's population is roughly a straight line from the first century to the eighteenth, where it starts to increase with the Industrial Revolution, and shoots up drastically in the twentieth century (with oil and coal).



So about 6 billion people are here thanks to the advent of fossil-fuel energy and modern medicine. And 90-some percent of them eat meat. Hence the factory farms. People in the West are living more comfortably than their ancestors did; they can afford to eat more meat per capita. But this system by which we get our mass-produced crops and meat is dependent on oil as its primary energy source. Oil is the lifeblood of the whole operation. And as the population grows, so does our oil consumption. Very soon our exponentially-increasing demand for oil will exceed our supply, and when that happens the whole scene is flucked. There's no way to accurately predict when this will happen. It may be five, ten, or twenty years off. Some people think we'll switch over to an alternative energy source, yet none of the ones that we have (such as fracking for natural gas) seem like viable substitutes. But let's even grant the optimists that much: miracle of miracles, we somehow manage to solve the world's energy crisis. There's still a problem: meat consumption. The more time we buy with energy, the longer we're going to push the population envelope and eat more meat. And even putting aside the massive effect the animal agriculture industry has on global warming, we would still have an unprecedented scale of animal cruelty and slaughter going on for as long as the current energy-and-population paradigm persists.

So then we get to the problem of: how do we change people's attitudes about eating meat? Most of the posters on this thread seem to be extremely optimistic about the chances of effecting a sea change in the American cultural attitude towards meat. "Look at how drastically attitudes changed toward slavery," they say. "Look at how quickly we turned around on gay marriage." But those are spurious comparisons. People's views on slavery and gay rights were never so intimately a part of their lives as meat is to the average American. There's a difference between bigotry and diet. Take, for example, the television programming geared towards food. There's a popular show on the Food Network called "Diners, Drive-Ins, and Dives," where the host goes around eagerly sampling the meaty cuisine of greasy spoon establishments. Basically, it's an annoying guy with spiked hair biting into sausage sandwiches at various locations and going "mmm. Oh my god, is that delicious." Americans love to celebrate their meat diet. There's even a show called "The United States of Bacon." Here is a brief segment from it:

(MOD EDIT- The following video has been placed in spoilers for containing graphic images of meat preparation. View at your own risk.)
Spoiler


That is the attitude we would have to change. Mention bacon to an omnivore and listen to them sigh and rhapsodize over bacon. Some people think that this will change over time. Maybe they're right. Others think we'll use our technological prowess to one day grow bacon in laboratories. And maybe they're right, also. I can think of a lot of technologies that I would love to see come to pass. I hope they do. However, the more I think about all this stuff, the less optimistic I get. It's like that movie Koyaanisqatsi: it's hard to get an appreciation for the vast scale of things, but time-lapse photography affords us a glimpse. I guess there could theoretically be a movie that gives people a sense of the vast scale of animal slaughter, but you'd have to get more access to the pens and the abattoirs first. And those things are sealed off like Fort Knox. Ag-gag laws are actually increasing in number, not decreasing. Just goes to show where we are in that respect. The lawmakers are beholden to the corporations. And the people are happy with their bacon. I don't think the masses ever loved their bigotry quite as much as they do their bacon.

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#66 Old 08-04-2015, 03:17 PM
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Please, @MacGregor Mathers , if you're going to post disgusting images of meat-heads, at least give us some warning of your shock-tactics. But I don't think the Bozo depicted in your video is representative of the average citizen. In any event, I don't think we have to worry much about him; he'll likely be dead of a heart attack before long. If I believed everything I see in the media, I too might become cynical, but I'm not so foolish as to believe everything I see.

The only thing your graph illustrates is that things have changed very drastically, and quite recently. We have entered a new age of history, and we have only just begun. There's a saying, "What cured a disease yesterday, will not cure it today." Or, as Abraham Lincoln said, "The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves and then we shall save our country. [ourselves]" I wonder if the average man is as enthralled with his bacon, as you suggest, or is better concerned about his own well-being. The point @Joan Kennedy was making is, historically, people have followed an elite aristocracy. This following is a holdover from a recent past, but a holdover that is no longer truly relevant in the modern world. Now that we have reached a point, especially with the advent of the internet (barely a couple of decades old,) where the common man has the opportunity to educate himself, there's a shot he may turn toward doing what is best for himself, rather than to be a blind follower, as he has done in the past. Skepticism has its place, but I choose to support my fellows in their quest for knowledge, knowing that education- including education of our own freedom to choose- is the difference that is at work in the modern world.

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#67 Old 08-04-2015, 03:53 PM
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I don't oppose a one-child policy out of concern for the reputation of vegans. I oppose it because it's incredibly unethical. Think about the implications of what you're suggesting. If a woman happens to get pregnant with a second child, what happens? Does the government force her to have an abortion? What if she keeps the pregnancy secret because she desperately wants her child to live? Do you kill the child when it's discovered, send the mother to jail? I don't see how you could think that this doesn't disproportionately affect women. Fathers could enjoy potential anonymity and wouldn't have to endure a forced abortion. Regardless, the gender equality is not the most horrifying part of this! What vegan who cares about the autonomy and welfare of animals could condone such atrocities?
It's called don't have unauthorised sex. If you had your child and still want to have sex, there are operations to take care of that. I mean, we are talking about a hypothetical aren't we?

No one "happens to get pregnant," unless it is rape, and then the rapist should be punished. (in this hypothetical world).

I love animals, but I still spay and neuter my pets.
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#68 Old 08-04-2015, 04:06 PM
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It's called don't have unauthorised sex. If you had your child and still want to have sex, there are operations to take care of that. I mean, we are talking about a hypothetical aren't we?

No one "happens to get pregnant," unless it is rape, and then the rapist should be punished. (in this hypothetical world).

I love animals, but I still spay and neuter my pets.
"Unauthorized sex"? Authorized by whom, exactly-- the government? Are you really advocating for obligatory government-mandated hysterectomies and vasectomies? These are unnecessary, serious, and invasive medical procedures. How would the government keep tabs on everyone's sex lives to be sure we were only engaging in "authorized" sex-- video cameras in every home? Daily examinations?

Yes, this is a hypothetical situation. It's a hypothetical authoritarian fascist dictatorship.

People get pregnant unintentionally every day.
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#69 Old 08-04-2015, 06:25 PM
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Please, @MacGregor Mathers , if you're going to post disgusting images of meat-heads, at least give us some warning of your shock-tactics. But I don't think the Bozo depicted in your video is representative of the average citizen. In any event, I don't think we have to worry much about him; he'll likely be dead of a heart attack before long. If I believed everything I see in the media, I too might become cynical, but I'm not so foolish as to believe everything I see.

The only thing your graph illustrates is that things have changed very drastically, and quite recently. We have entered a new age of history, and we have only just begun. There's a saying, "What cured a disease yesterday, will not cure it today." Or, as Abraham Lincoln said, "The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present. The occasion is piled high with difficulty and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves and then we shall save our country. [ourselves]" I wonder if the average man is as enthralled with his bacon, as you suggest, or is better concerned about his own well-being. The point @Joan Kennedy was making is, historically, people have followed an elite aristocracy. This following is a holdover from a recent past, but a holdover that is no longer truly relevant in the modern world. Now that we have reached a point, especially with the advent of the internet (barely a couple of decades old,) where the common man has the opportunity to educate himself, there's a shot he may turn toward doing what is best for himself, rather than to be a blind follower, as he has done in the past. Skepticism has its place, but I choose to support my fellows in their quest for knowledge, knowing that education- including education of our own freedom to choose- is the difference that is at work in the modern world.
I apologize for the video, Capstan. I should've read the rules first. However, I have to disagree with you about that bozo in the video being unrepresentative of the average U.S. citizen. Perhaps it's just me (and this is admittedly just anecdotal evidence), but I find most of my compatriots to be unapologetic omnivores. They love eating meat and they love, say, a good frothy discussion of how delicious bacon is. And I'm not out in NASCAR country or anything. I live in a Northeastern blue state. I work at a Whole Foods. I have a higher-than-average number of vegans and vegetarians within my circle of acquaintances. But we nevertheless comprise a tiny minority. The internet is a fine thing, to be sure, but internet discourse (largely) tends to work at a very crass and snarky level. We all know what the comments section of a YouTube video is likeand as you said, the internet's been around for twenty years. You would think that we'd have gotten past the puerile taunts by now. But no. We are not. In fact, a coworker of mine recently posted this picture on Facebook. He commented: "vegan fail is hilarious." I should warn the reader that the picture is an advertisement for fried chicken.

Spoiler


As I conceded, this is all just anecdotal evidence. If we live in an age where people are liberated from the tyranny of rulers, then that's great. But what I fear is the tyranny of the mob. I see very little to make me optimistic that the populace, left to its own devices, is going to self-educate on ethics and go from being 95% omnivore to being majority vegan or vegetarian. Meat is a multi-billion dollar industry owned by big corporations which have their tentacles all over the federal government. Their ads and programs are all over the place, and people are "totally in2 it." They are the bozos in the video I posted. Their mouths water at the sight of food porn for chicken wings and bacon burgers. The corporate aristocracy seems to be doing quite well.

It's a fair thing, perhaps, to say that homo sapiens are highly evolved primates. But we're still primates. I can just imagine the riotous street scenes when the oil runs out. We'll be shrieking and fighting like angry chimps. Every great civilization in history has come to its ruin, and I think at this point the West appears to be no exception. We went full speed ahead with industry and technology, and we're going to have to pay the price. Peak oil, global warming, overpopulation, and factory farming. There's no easy solution to any of these. There are optimistic solutions, maybe, to one or two, but none that address all four simultaneously (and do so realistically). If you think we have a chance, then I'm envious. (Honestly). I wish I could be that hopeful.
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#70 Old 08-05-2015, 05:06 AM
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the main thing mankind has to do is solve the energy problem...if that gets solved by things like oilgae, or simply massive solar farms, then other things like global warming may get solved too...if you have the energy to sequester greenhouse gasses.
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#71 Old 08-05-2015, 10:05 AM
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"Unauthorized sex"? Authorized by whom, exactly-- the government? Are you really advocating for obligatory government-mandated hysterectomies and vasectomies? These are unnecessary, serious, and invasive medical procedures. How would the government keep tabs on everyone's sex lives to be sure we were only engaging in "authorized" sex-- video cameras in every home? Daily examinations?

Yes, this is a hypothetical situation. It's a hypothetical authoritarian fascist dictatorship.

People get pregnant unintentionally every day.

Free birth pills/ condoms/ media campaigns/ free voluntary abortions and fines. I understand that you oppose it. But it would work for reducing population.

As for accidental pregnancy for poor families who don't want to go through an abortion, I don't know what to tell you. Sometimes you get the short end of the stick in life.
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#72 Old 08-05-2015, 05:02 PM
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Free birth pills/ condoms/ media campaigns/ free voluntary abortions and fines. I understand that you oppose it. But it would work for reducing population.

As for accidental pregnancy for poor families who don't want to go through an abortion, I don't know what to tell you. Sometimes you get the short end of the stick in life.
I don't oppose free birth control, or voluntary abortion or sterilisation, at all. I oppose forcing those things on people who don't want them. Educating the public about responsible family planning and providing free and easy access to abortion and sterilisation is a fantastic idea and is something we should be implementing now rather than in some dystopian future.

It's funny that those who get the "short end of the stick" are always the most vulnerable. I don't buy that as a morally acceptable justification for inflicting physical and psychological torture on others, certainly not on those who are already struggling. China has already implemented this program and the results have been devastating. The UN has highlighted it as a violation of human rights. Why would it be any better on a global scale?
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#73 Old 08-05-2015, 06:50 PM
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I don't oppose free birth control, or voluntary abortion or sterilisation, at all. I oppose forcing those things on people who don't want them. Educating the public about responsible family planning and providing free and easy access to abortion and sterilisation is a fantastic idea and is something we should be implementing now rather than in some dystopian future.

It's funny that those who get the "short end of the stick" are always the most vulnerable. I don't buy that as a morally acceptable justification for inflicting physical and psychological torture on others, certainly not on those who are already struggling. China has already implemented this program and the results have been devastating. The UN has highlighted it as a violation of human rights. Why would it be any better on a global scale?

Isn't China's human rights abuse a more general issue rather than one borne out of one child policy?

I suppose what you are saying is true about most vulnerable usually getting the bad deal, but that's how it's always.

for example poor people who can't afford decent lawyers end up in jail for long periods for petty crimes while criminals with enterprises roam free. What's the viable alternative?
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#74 Old 08-06-2015, 05:58 AM
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Isn't China's human rights abuse a more general issue rather than one borne out of one child policy?

I suppose what you are saying is true about most vulnerable usually getting the bad deal, but that's how it's always.

for example poor people who can't afford decent lawyers end up in jail for long periods for petty crimes while criminals with enterprises roam free. What's the viable alternative?
I'm speaking of the one-child policy specifically.

Quote:
Aside from resulting sex selective abortions, China’s One Child Policy has caused forced abortions of “illegal children,” or children of couples who already have a child, and sterilizations by family planning officials and an international issue of human rights violations.  According to the U.N. Tehran Declaration on Human Rights, couples have the right to decide how many children they want to have “freely but responsibly” (Mason). Making the decision “responsibly” can signify not having more children than the couple can support monetarily or having a number of children that is not detrimental to the environment or society.  China may have justified its implementation of the one-child policy through the responsibility of parents to have a number of children that will not hurt society.  However, even if China bases its policy on parents’ responsibility, the methods used to enforce the policy and the policies of other developing countries have been criticized as they “pressure women to use dangerous contraceptives, to have abortions when they wish to bear children, and to undergo sterilization operations that destroy their childbearing capacity.  Population programs are thus coercive; they also ignore women’s overall health needs” (Mason).  The Chinese government imposes the policy through violent means including “beatings, kidnappings and killings committed by family planning officials” (Demick).  Chinese law state that family planning officials should “‘not violate the personal rights of civilians’”; however, it permits “‘remedial measures’ to end unauthorized pregnancies” (Demick).  Apart from killing the child, forced abortions can result in the death of the mother.  Forced sterilization can take place after the birth of a first child to prevent women from having more or after an abortion (Demick).  These abortions and sterilizations are “often performed at family planning clinics, where, by the admission of Chinese officials, medical training and equipment can be inadequate” (Demick).  China’s one-child policy flouts international human rights. 
http://alexatsintolas.weebly.com/gen...iolations.html

Various human rights organisations (particularly women's rights organisations) have pressed the UN to investigate China's one-childolicy, and the UN maintains that none of its branches support this policy: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...-child-policy/

"That's how it always has been" isn't an acceptable moral justification for unethical policies, either. The viable alternative is to provide education and free, easy access to family planning services, as you mentioned earlier-- while also moving forward with advances in sustainable farming and resources, eco-friendly technology, synthetic meats and animal products, etc. I see no reason why violence against pregnant women should ever be considered a possible solution to ANY problem.
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#75 Old 08-06-2015, 03:18 PM
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i consider my greatest gift to this planet to be the fact that i never reproduced. as an environmentally conscious non-materialistic vegan my impact is very low and i take pains to keep it so. but my environmental impact is maybe 100x greater than that of a typical bangladeshi simply because i live in the usa.

my second greatest gift to the planet is my veganism.

i believe my biological imperative is to spread my memes, not my genes. there is far too much suffering in this world. i would never want to bring a child into it to experience the life that i've lived. i try to make a little vegan paradise bubble with my collies and my piano and my bach and mozart but they don't entirely shut out all the pain and disappointment.

and i write this with nearly every possible advantage: i am reasonably intelligent, reasonably attractive, in reasonable shape, with no mortgage, low living expenses, an incredibly beautiful backyard, and an easy job in a society where life is relatively simple. if i get hungry i go to the grocery store. if i get sick i go to the doctor. if i need a pair of shoes i get them. i have easy access to the greatest works of art, the greatest novels, the greatest movies, the greatest music ever produced. i can even make some of it myself. etc.

as far as who gets to have kids and why, fay weldon had a good solution: let your neighbors decide. if you are nice to them, they are more likely to vote yes to you.
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#76 Old 08-06-2015, 07:34 PM
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i consider my greatest gift to this planet to be the fact that i never reproduced. as an environmentally conscious non-materialistic vegan my impact is very low and i take pains to keep it so. but my environmental impact is maybe 100x greater than that of a typical bangladeshi simply because i live in the usa.

my second greatest gift to the planet is my veganism.

i believe my biological imperative is to spread my memes, not my genes. there is far too much suffering in this world. i would never want to bring a child into it to experience the life that i've lived. i try to make a little vegan paradise bubble with my collies and my piano and my bach and mozart but they don't entirely shut out all the pain and disappointment.

and i write this with nearly every possible advantage: i am reasonably intelligent, reasonably attractive, in reasonable shape, with no mortgage, low living expenses, an incredibly beautiful backyard, and an easy job in a society where life is relatively simple. if i get hungry i go to the grocery store. if i get sick i go to the doctor. if i need a pair of shoes i get them. i have easy access to the greatest works of art, the greatest novels, the greatest movies, the greatest music ever produced. i can even make some of it myself. etc.

as far as who gets to have kids and why, fay weldon had a good solution: let your neighbors decide. if you are nice to them, they are more likely to vote yes to you.

You could adopt a child though.
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#77 Old 08-06-2015, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by rasitha.wijesekera View Post
You could adopt a child though.
Yes, or have a child who turns vegan at 11 and converts you and your husband.
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#78 Old 08-06-2015, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by rasitha.wijesekera View Post
You could adopt a child though.
i don't have a partner though, and i feel pretty strongly that every child deserves two parents who love each other and will support each other as well as the child.

it's really too hard to do on one's own. my dad (who really loved my mother, again I was lucky) used to tell me not to try to do anything too heroic--that it is really hard and that it takes two parents. at least!
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#79 Old 08-06-2015, 08:39 PM
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Originally Posted by cuberail View Post
i don't have a partner though, and i feel pretty strongly that every child deserves two parents who love each other and will support each other as well as the child.

it's really too hard to do on one's own. my dad (who really loved my mother, again I was lucky) used to tell me not to try to do anything too heroic--that it is really hard and that it takes two parents. at least!
There are lots of kids in foster care awaiting a home. They'd be happy with one parent, I'm sure.

I agree with you, I would have had a hard time raising my 2 without my great husband.
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#80 Old 08-21-2015, 07:05 AM
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Is reproduction really a "god-given right" ?
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#81 Old 08-21-2015, 08:09 AM
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Is reproduction really a "god-given right" ?
What exactly are you asking? I don't believe in God, so I don't believe that anything is "god-given." If you're asking if reproduction is a basic human right, then the answer is yes. According to the World Health Organisation, reproductive rights are defined as follows:

"Reproductive rights rest on the recognition of the basic right of all couples and individuals to decide freely and responsibly the number, spacing and timing of their children and to have the information and means to do so, and the right to attain the highest standard of sexual and reproductive health. They also include the right of all to make decisions concerning reproduction free of discrimination, coercion and violence."
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