Animals injured in crop harvesting? - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 07-01-2006, 10:12 AM
Newbie
 
vegan_slut's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 15
I searched and searched but haven't found anything on this, but if this is a repetitive thread, I apologize.



My cousin is trying to convince my that in the process of harvesting crops and plants and fruits, many rodents, rabbits, boll weevils, etc. are killed by machines that pick the crops from the fields. Has anyone heard anything about this?! I think he got his sources from a pretty ridiculous website (ever heard of maddox.xmission.com?). I told him to come talk to me when he had more credible sources and he hasn't yet, I don't think he really cares I think he's just trying to give me a hard time.



What would you all say to this argument?
vegan_slut is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 07-01-2006, 10:31 AM
Veggie Regular
 
*AHIMSA*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 10,728
Of course animals are injured in modern farming. Big machines running through cornfields don't check to see if mice are living in the plants before harvesting the corn. Yet another reason to find a small local farm and buy from them



The point of veganism is to do the least amount of harm. Since omni's/lacto-ovo's and people with every other kind of diet eat many of the same foods vegans do, in addition to animal products and animals themselves, it stands to reason that a conscious vegan diet will do less harm.



I hope you are able to get help from others who have the time or information to link for you

"Yes! Live! Life's a banquet and most poor suckers are starving to death!" Auntie Mame
*AHIMSA* is offline  
#3 Old 07-01-2006, 10:47 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
I would admit the truth of the harms of veg*n food and then say that our society also relies on a lot of human exploitation. Then I would ask him whether the fact that people cause some harm justifies them causing more harm, and if he answers 'yes', I would say "thanks for letting me know" and kick him in the groins.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#4 Old 07-01-2006, 10:53 AM
Newbie
 
ambiguous smile's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 19
Like others have said, of course some animals are harmed with the big machinery they use. Go for organic farm products, at the one I work on, we harvest our crops by hand.
ambiguous smile is offline  
#5 Old 07-01-2006, 10:58 AM
Administrator
 
Michael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,872
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegan_slut View Post


My cousin is trying to convince my that in the process of harvesting crops and plants and fruits, many rodents, rabbits, boll weevils, etc. are killed by machines that pick the crops from the fields.



Cows eat far more grain than humans do. Therefore more animals are still killed for a meat-based diet.

Follow me on Twitter - @_jorts
Michael is offline  
#6 Old 07-01-2006, 10:59 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Fyvel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 5,664
Unfortunately it does happen. But harvesting is also required for the food that is used for animal feed, and many pounds of animal feed must be fed to an animal to produce one pound of flesh. So while a veg*n diet still causes harm, it causes significantly less harm that an omnivorous diet.
Fyvel is offline  
#7 Old 07-01-2006, 11:01 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Vegmedic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,020
On the one hand you could say that as a vegan you eat grains. The farming and transportation process of growing, processing and transporting those grains to you has caused the death of many small animals.



On the other hand you could say that a omni eats meat. A cow eats several pounds of grain for each pound of beef "produced" (which of course the growing, processing and transporting of said grain caused the death of many small animals).



Any way you look at it an veg*n diet has caused less animal death and suffering.
Vegmedic is offline  
#8 Old 07-01-2006, 11:05 AM
Newbie
 
cillianmurphy00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22
yeah obiously animals get hurt during that.
cillianmurphy00 is offline  
#9 Old 07-01-2006, 11:07 AM
Newbie
 
cillianmurphy00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegmedic View Post

On the one hand you could say that as a vegan you eat grains. The farming and transportation process of growing, processing and transporting those grains to you has caused the death of many small animals.



On the other hand you could say that a omni eats meat. A cow eats several pounds of grain for each pound of beef "produced" (which of course the growing, processing and transporting of said grain caused the death of many small animals).



Any way you look at it an veg*n diet has caused less animal death and suffering.



Yeah
cillianmurphy00 is offline  
#10 Old 07-01-2006, 11:07 AM
Newbie
 
cillianmurphy00's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vegmedic View Post

On the one hand you could say that as a vegan you eat grains. The farming and transportation process of growing, processing and transporting those grains to you has caused the death of many small animals.



On the other hand you could say that a omni eats meat. A cow eats several pounds of grain for each pound of beef "produced" (which of course the growing, processing and transporting of said grain caused the death of many small animals).



Any way you look at it an veg*n diet has caused less animal death and suffering.



Yeah
cillianmurphy00 is offline  
#11 Old 07-01-2006, 11:23 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Scythe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,546
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post

Cows eat far more grain than humans do. Therefore more animals are still killed for a meat-based diet.



How many of them are even fed grain? On the farms around here they eat grass and hay.
Scythe is offline  
#12 Old 07-01-2006, 11:30 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Moechalatte's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegan_slut View Post

I searched and searched but haven't found anything on this, but if this is a repetitive thread, I apologize.



My cousin is trying to convince my that in the process of harvesting crops and plants and fruits, many rodents, rabbits, boll weevils, etc. are killed by machines that pick the crops from the fields. Has anyone heard anything about this?! I think he got his sources from a pretty ridiculous website (ever heard of maddox.xmission.com?). I told him to come talk to me when he had more credible sources and he hasn't yet, I don't think he really cares I think he's just trying to give me a hard time.



What would you all say to this argument?



I believe it 100% ... and, not to mention, thousands of other animals (spiders, crickets, ants, dragon flies....etc.) are killed by these machines, if not rabbits and rodents.



My response to things like this is -- I wish we lived in a world where humans tried our hardest to avoid killing these creatures, but we don't. The best we can do is try to grow as much of our own food as possible so we don't contribute so much to the murder/destruction...
Moechalatte is offline  
#13 Old 07-01-2006, 11:44 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Tempeh-Tantrums's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 676
As others have said, do the LEAST harm...



You kill poor helpless insects every time you drive your automobile. You kill dust mites every time you do laundry. There's no avoiding some destruction, we just try to do what harms them the least.



Aother reason no one can truely claim they're 100% vegan.
Tempeh-Tantrums is offline  
#14 Old 07-02-2006, 12:41 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Moechalatte's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tempeh-Tantrums View Post

.............



Aother reason no one can truely claim they're 100% vegan.



I thought the actual definition of a "vegan" is someone who tries his/her absolute hardest to avoid killing animals .... so I can see how someone could be 100% vegan. It's all about the intentions right....
Moechalatte is offline  
#15 Old 07-02-2006, 12:44 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moechalatte View Post

I thought the actual definition of a "vegan" is someone who tries his/her absolute hardest to avoid killing animals .... so I can see how someone could be 100% vegan. It's all about the intentions right....

I don't think anyone does try his/her absolute hardest or intends to cause no harm.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#16 Old 07-02-2006, 01:03 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Moechalatte's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

I don't think anyone does try his/her absolute hardest or intends to cause no harm.



It is still attainable, though, at least 100% vegan in action, on the other hand, really isn't..
Moechalatte is offline  
#17 Old 07-02-2006, 01:04 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Moechalatte's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythe View Post

How many of them are even fed grain? On the farms around here they eat grass and hay.



That's not very typical at all, from what I've heard. Way too expensive.
Moechalatte is offline  
#18 Old 07-02-2006, 02:31 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moechalatte View Post

It is still attainable, though, at least 100% vegan in action, on the other hand, really isn't..

Well I'm not sure about the common distinction between intentions and actions. If I intend to cause no harm and so I intend to e.g. get all my food from the trash, how can this intention fail to be translated into action? It sounds odd that I would intend to go to the trashcan and yet walk to a store to buy my food.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#19 Old 07-02-2006, 03:01 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Scythe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,546
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moechalatte View Post

That's not very typical at all, from what I've heard. Way too expensive.



Grass growing unattended (unless you count killing weeds and moving cows to different paddocks) in a field costs more than grain?
Scythe is offline  
#20 Old 07-02-2006, 05:29 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Ludi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythe View Post

Grass growing unattended (unless you count killing weeds and moving cows to different paddocks) in a field costs more than grain?





Most grazing animals such as cattle are started on grass and "finished" in a feedlot, where they are fed grain (or grain and chicken bedding, ground up newspapers, etc). Very few commercial animals are entirely grassfed these days.
Ludi is offline  
#21 Old 07-02-2006, 06:04 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Scythe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,546
At what point in life are they "finished"?



And no, I don't mean a few seconds before the end.
Scythe is offline  
#22 Old 07-02-2006, 06:22 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Ludi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythe View Post

At what point in life are they "finished"?



And no, I don't mean a few seconds before the end.





Do you mean how old are they when they go to the feedlot and how long do they stay there?





I'll have to look it up. From what I'm seeing at this point it looks like they are taken as yearlings or weanlings and fed in a lot until their weight is doubled. But I haven't found how long that takes. I could ask my neighbor across the road, who runs a feedlot, but he is a very busy man and I rarely encounter him.





http://agalternatives.aers.psu.edu/l...eef_cattle.pdf.
Ludi is offline  
#23 Old 07-02-2006, 03:41 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Scythe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 3,546
So after that they go back or do they get sent to a slaughterhouse or something?
Scythe is offline  
#24 Old 07-02-2006, 03:58 PM
Banned
 
nigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,524
Quote:
Originally Posted by vegan_slut View Post


What would you all say to this argument?



I've seen it first-hand and it is sad. Plowing destroys ground-nesting birds' nests and injures chicks and roots up the homes of gophers, groundhogs, field rats etc., cutting them to bits in the process. Honestly, I'd bet it happens more on small farms than the big commercial operations because smaller farms generally poison their soil less and create an environment more hospitable to animals. All other things even, I'm still convinced that the animals have a better chance without the poisons!
nigel is offline  
#25 Old 07-02-2006, 04:38 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Moechalatte's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

Well I'm not sure about the common distinction between intentions and actions. If I intend to cause no harm and so I intend to e.g. get all my food from the trash, how can this intention fail to be translated into action? It sounds odd that I would intend to go to the trashcan and yet walk to a store to buy my food.



Maybe I'm missing what you're trying to say, but this doesn't make any sense to me. If you actually intended to go to the trashcan, then you wouldn't walk to a store to buy your food...



There's a huge difference between (1) I intended to eat food containing no dairy today, but there was some butter on the carrots I ate, although I didn't know it at the time, and (2) I intended to eat food containing no dairy today, but there was no food in the house and I was unable to buy some, so I ate some cheese.
Moechalatte is offline  
#26 Old 07-02-2006, 04:53 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Moechalatte's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythe View Post

Grass growing unattended (unless you count killing weeds and moving cows to different paddocks) in a field costs more than grain?



I honestly don't know a whole lot on this topic, but I do think it's a lot about supply and demand - grain is what's harvested and sold, so it's the supply. If you demand something that's not so widely available (grass), you're going to have to pay more for it. Again, I don't know a lot about this, but that's what makes sense to me from the little I do understand about grass vs. grain...
Moechalatte is offline  
#27 Old 07-02-2006, 04:58 PM
Banned
 
nigel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,524
Crop harvesting. Animals killed during crop harvesting.
nigel is offline  
#28 Old 07-02-2006, 05:00 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Pinkerton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 266
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythe View Post

How many of them are even fed grain? On the farms around here they eat grass and hay.

I assure you, those animals are not the ones who's "products" end up at the local supermarket. We have local farms here too (Garden State ) where the animals live nice lives in open fields, but they are not the animals being used for mass consumption if used for food at all.
Pinkerton is offline  
#29 Old 07-02-2006, 05:33 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Vegmedic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythe View Post

How many of them are even fed grain? On the farms around here they eat grass and hay.



Well, the processing of hay causes just as many small animals to die as the processing of grain. I grew up on a farm, often you would find parts of mice and snakes in bales of hay.



Most beef that you can buy in a store would have been fed grain. As has been mentioned before most beef cattle go to a feedlot prior to slaughter, that is normally for a time of at least 4 months where they will consume mostly grain to gain as much weight as quickly as possible.



This is a quote from the Canadian beef industry. It would be very similar in the US, and beef raised in European countries generally consume even more grain as their is less land to graze on so they are more likely to be started on grain at a younger age.



Quote:
Cattle will gain weight at about 1.7 kilograms per day on these high energy rations. Virtually all cattle in feedlots are fed high energy grain feed rations for a minimum of 120 days. This ensures that sufficient marbling is produced, and the fat is firm and white. The average live weight at slaughter for steers is about 630 kilograms, while the average weight for heifers is about 590 kilograms. In 2004, over 94% of the animals produced for slaughter in Canadian feedlots grade CANADA A, AA, AAA & Prime - the highest quality categories within the Canadian grading system.

http://www.cbef.com/Industry.htm
Vegmedic is offline  
#30 Old 07-02-2006, 06:27 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Ludi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 5,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythe View Post

So after that they go back or do they get sent to a slaughterhouse or something?





Umm...back.....? They go from the feedlot to the slaughterhouse......





Re: hay. I found a dead bunnie, or part of a bunnie, in a bale of hay....
Ludi is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off