Empathy for dairy cows- SUPPORT THREAD - Page 4 - VeggieBoards
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#91 Old 07-09-2006, 12:27 PM
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It's amazing the lengths people will go to justify what they want isn't it? My mom used to claim cows would die if they weren't milked. That way she could feel like she was doing them a favor if she bought dairy products. Hows that for justification?

Ask your mom if she's still producing breastmilk on her own without a baby.

My favorite though is the whole "I would love to but I CAN'T give up milk or cheese (it's always milk or cheese too right?). I'm too weak" or whatever. Why not just say the truth? You don't WANT to and it doesn't matter to you if the animal suffers to provide it just so long as you enjoy it? Grr. I don't agree but I'll respect that. I have zero respect for the whining about how you "can't" give it up.

That and those who claim they need it for health reasons. My mom tries to claim she needs to eat dairy to stay healthy. You can't get anything from cheese that you can't from the plant world, you WANT the cheese to be the only alternative because you enjoy it.



It aggrivates me no end to hear that crap from someone who claims to "love animals". Whatever. When you know the truth and decide to do nothing about it, you're making a choice to make an animal suffer.

Mary

Mary

Took the words right out of my mouth. I think we may share a brain or something.
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#92 Old 07-10-2006, 05:31 AM
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Ohhh I did ask her if she still produces milk without having babies.... She looked confused. Then I said that we're the only mammals that still consume milk after we've been weened from the breast and that it's completely unecessary. She replies "we're not mammals, we're human beings!"
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#93 Old 07-10-2006, 06:07 AM
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oh man cherbear, you have a serious case of denial on your hands.



I actually used to think that cows needed to be milked anyway, so what was the harm. BUT I wasn't challenged in that belief either... in other words, nobody filled me in on the truth and I had no reason to believe otherwise. This was long before the internet though, which has made it really easy for people to look up whatever info they think to look up.



BTW- I hosted a vegan pot luck on the weekend... there were three vegans and the rest were vegetarians/near-vegetarians. It was lovely! It was great to have a pot luck where I could eat everything at it, not just questionable crackers.
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#94 Old 07-10-2006, 06:57 AM
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-Cherbear my mom is the exact same way, minus the arguments. She told me a few times that cows have one calf and then can be milked as long as people kept milking them. Her favorite argument was the infamous "but it doesn't hurt the cow"... I tried to mildly tell her why these things aren't true. She's very reasonable and I think she's been considering going vegan anyway. In those situations it's hard to educate people if you argue with them. Being yelled at that they're wrong or stupid will put them on the defensive no matter what.



I know it's frustrating can't wait to go to LI to visit my relatives (AKA the most sarcastic and judgemental people on the face of the earth

wish me luck.
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#95 Old 07-10-2006, 08:42 AM
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moe - that's what my mom thinks! Cows have one calf and then they produce as much milk as we need because they're "dairy" cows. We weren't necessarily yelling at each other but I was definitely frustrated. Ohhh then she claimed that the articles I've read (and obviously everyone here) is wrong.



Good luck with the relatives!
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#96 Old 07-10-2006, 08:43 AM
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I still wonder if cows have to have a calf every year to keep producing milk. With horses anyway they will keep making milk, if they are health, as long as something is taking the milk out of them. There are people who breast feed their children 'til they are 5 years, some times older, even without having more kids. Here in America most women wean their children years earlier, but the women don't go on producing milk for x number of years until the kid is 5. And every once in a while there is that story where a domestic animal that has given birth before starts nursing orphaned baby animals and starts producing milk. Like the cat who nursed puppies or one dog taking in another's pups and nursing them even though she hasn't given birth in years.

\tAll that being said I don't know if cows have to give birth every year to keep producing milk. BUT COWS HAVE TO GIVE BIRTH EVERY YEAR TO ENSURE THAT THERE ARE ENOUGH REPLACEMENT HEIFERS. Most dairy don't send cow eggs and bull sperm off to some lab, so scientists can find the X sperms to put into the eggs to make them female, then have the eggs sent back to the cows to be implanted. The farmers need to make sure that even if the calves are mostly males, they will still have plenty of females.

A plastic hutch is no substitute for a mother. Replace dairy, not mothers.
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#97 Old 07-10-2006, 08:53 AM
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faded_amaranth, do you have any more info you could share? So even if a cow doesn't have to give birth every year to produce milk they're STILL giving birth for replacement?
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#98 Old 07-10-2006, 09:10 AM
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Maybe the milk is a higher quality or more is produced if the cow has a calf, I really don't know. The reason I wrote that was if someone says a cow doesn't have to have a calf every year to produce milk they could be right, but the cows will still be having calves every year.

A plastic hutch is no substitute for a mother. Replace dairy, not mothers.
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#99 Old 07-10-2006, 09:24 AM
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thanks!
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#100 Old 07-10-2006, 10:05 AM
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you're welcome!



\tSome times I wish I still had my (well, the school's) advance animal science textbook so I could show people they are wrong with a book written by people who do stuff with farm animal for people who want to do stuff with farm animals. Plus it is heavy so I could chuck it at them if they are being stupid.

A plastic hutch is no substitute for a mother. Replace dairy, not mothers.
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#101 Old 07-10-2006, 12:24 PM
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Faded,

Cows give birth every year to keep milk levels high I would presume. Human mothers can breastfeed until the child is older, however, her supply starts to taper a little not only as the child begins to eat food but just as the child ages. A human mother will not produce a large amount of milk for indefinite years so long as something is consuming it.

Just based on what I know about how breastfeeding works for humans too, I would presume pumping it out of the cow does not produce the high amounts that a calf would be able to stimulate. Babies are much more efficient at getting the milk out than a pump.

I know a woman who breastfed an adopted son years after giving birth to her daughter, however, she had to really work to stimulate the milk. She had to pump round the clock for months to get anything and I think she even had to supplement a little in the beginning (she used the breastmilk she had pumped before his birth). I would assume that most dairy farmers aren't going to try that hard when they can just get the cow pregnant and stimulate it anew.

I'm sure it has more to do with amount than ability.

Mary
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#102 Old 07-10-2006, 12:51 PM
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thanks for the info, a forget to take in to account that the baby would be eating other foods on milk production would decrease. Now we have 2 good arguements for why it's true that cows have calves yearly.



I saw on the Discovery channel that there are men with extra breast tissue who can make milk, just thought I'd add that weird, random fact.

A plastic hutch is no substitute for a mother. Replace dairy, not mothers.
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#103 Old 07-10-2006, 05:00 PM
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This thread is sad for me because I'm not vegan, but I do have empathy for dairy cows and calves. I imagine that veganism is somewhere in my future but I'm not there yet.

I know I really shouldn't be posting here but I just wanted to say that for whatever reason, it is a fact that dairy cows do have a calf every year. They are usually milked for 9months of the year and then dried off. Some start to dry themselves off at about that time anyway, some could continue but aren't allowed to. The farmer will start milking them less frequently, then stop completely. This system is designed to get the best value from the cow in terms of milk production and calf production. Any cow who does not get in calf will be sold unless there is some really good reason not to sell her (for example if she's a pet, or expected to be an extremely high producer).
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#104 Old 07-10-2006, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GNUmoe View Post

-Cherbear my mom is the exact same way, minus the arguments. She told me a few times that cows have one calf and then can be milked as long as people kept milking them. Her favorite argument was the infamous "but it doesn't hurt the cow"... I tried to mildly tell her why these things aren't true. She's very reasonable and I think she's been considering going vegan anyway. In those situations it's hard to educate people if you argue with them. Being yelled at that they're wrong or stupid will put them on the defensive no matter what.



I know it's frustrating can't wait to go to LI to visit my relatives (AKA the most sarcastic and judgemental people on the face of the earth

wish me luck.





I'm no expert on cows, but I have had 2 kids. My experience is that breastfeeding, with humans anyway, is simple economics - supply and demand. The more you use, the more you produce, the converse is also true. Start weaning and you'll produce less. I expect that they are producing on an annual basis for more calves, not for more milk. Those milking machines are probably able to draw as much, if not more, than a hungry calf.
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#105 Old 07-10-2006, 07:48 PM
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This thread is sad for me because I'm not vegan, but I do have empathy for dairy cows and calves. I imagine that veganism is somewhere in my future but I'm not there yet.

I know I really shouldn't be posting here but I just wanted to say that for whatever reason, it is a fact that dairy cows do have a calf every year. They are usually milked for 9months of the year and then dried off. Some start to dry themselves off at about that time anyway, some could continue but aren't allowed to. The farmer will start milking them less frequently, then stop completely. This system is designed to get the best value from the cow in terms of milk production and calf production. Any cow who does not get in calf will be sold unless there is some really good reason not to sell her (for example if she's a pet, or expected to be an extremely high producer).



yes, I don't know exactly the reason why it's done either, whether it's more related to replacement cows or production or both, but on commercial farms they are forced to give birth every year. Perhaps using hormones/chemicals alone, the production could be kept high, but it's not done that way.

"If you want to know where you would have stood on slavery before the civil war, don't look at where you stand on slavery today, look at where you stand on animal rights." - Paul Watson.

 

Every animal you eat
was running for her life

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#106 Old 07-13-2006, 07:04 PM
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I was vegetarian for 12-13 years before becoming vegan 1 1/2 years ago. It was only after I started doing some research into different names for animal-derived products that I learned that many types of cheese are not even vegetarian since they contain rennet/rennin which is an enzyme from the stomach of a slaughtered calf or pig.



When I finally decided to become vegan, I put a sign on my fridge that said "I am not a calf." For some reason, it really did help to be reminded that cow's milk is not made for me, is not necessary for me nutritionally, and is actually detrimental to human health.
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#107 Old 07-21-2006, 01:59 PM
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When I finally decided to become vegan, I put a sign on my fridge that said "I am not a calf." For some reason, it really did help to be reminded that cow's milk is not made for me, is not necessary for me nutritionally, and is actually detrimental to human health.





That's awesome.
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#108 Old 01-08-2007, 07:00 AM
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In a wonderful example of empathy for dairy cows, Mr. Meatless has decided he is cutting dairy out of his diet!



He already is vegetarian, and doesn't consume eggs, but he wouldn't give up cow's milk in his coffee every morning, and a few other occasional consumptions. But when we almost lost our cat Pesto last month, he had a realization. He told me that if dairy cows felt even some of the anguish when their calves are taken away from them that he felt when he thought he was going to lose his baby, he doesn't want to have any part of it.
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#109 Old 01-08-2007, 08:24 AM
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In a wonderful example of empathy for dairy cows, Mr. Meatless has decided he is cutting dairy out of his diet!



He already is vegetarian, and doesn't consume eggs, but he wouldn't give up cow's milk in his coffee every morning, and a few other occasional consumptions. But when we almost lost our cat Pesto last month, he had a realization. He told me that if dairy cows felt even some of the anguish when their calves are taken away from them that he felt when he thought he was going to lose his baby, he doesn't want to have any part of it.





Yay, Mr Meatless!
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#110 Old 01-08-2007, 09:22 AM
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Good job! *drinks her soymilk*



It's easy not to use milk. It's all good.
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#111 Old 01-08-2007, 09:41 AM
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Congrats for Mr. Meatless!
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#112 Old 01-08-2007, 10:41 AM
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that'a awesome, Meatless!
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#113 Old 01-08-2007, 04:33 PM
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poor diary cows...



I wish more could see the suffering they cause to satisfy their lust for cheese.





...till all are free
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#114 Old 01-08-2007, 04:57 PM
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#115 Old 01-08-2007, 06:33 PM
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meatless, that is terrific news!!!
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#116 Old 01-08-2007, 08:37 PM
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poor diary cows...





Sorry, I don't normally point out typos, but that one is helluva funny!
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#117 Old 01-08-2007, 10:45 PM
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YAY Meatless! How wonderful!



I definitely have a lot of empathy for dairy cows, moreso than for any of the other farm animals. I am a mother myself, a nursing mother, and my kids are my LIFE. I know exactly what it feels like to give birth and hold that tiny newborn baby and nurse him in those first hours and days. I cannot even fathom the thought of anybody taking my babies away from me. To think that cows somehow aren't traumatized by that because they are not human is absurd.



Recently, when I made the shift back from lacto-ovo vegetarian to vegan, I was considering the life of a dairy cow and calf on the "humane" farm I used to buy from, Organic Valley. When I wrote to them, the assured me that the mother cow gets to nurse her calf for a full five days, and then the calves are lovingly raised by the farmers and bottle-fed formula, and they would never be sent to a veal farm. Which is...better...BUT...then I imagined if I were the mother cow and that were my baby. How would I have felt if, after a few days home from the hospital with my babies, a nice social worker came to the door and said, "I'm taking your baby now, he is going to a very loving home where he will be well taken care of. Now, say goodbye and hand him to me." Yes, it would be better than seeing my baby placed in a tiny crate. But it would still be inimaginably horrible.
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#118 Old 01-09-2007, 09:31 AM
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YAY Meatless! How wonderful!



I definitely have a lot of empathy for dairy cows, moreso than for any of the other farm animals. I am a mother myself, a nursing mother, and my kids are my LIFE. I know exactly what it feels like to give birth and hold that tiny newborn baby and nurse him in those first hours and days. I cannot even fathom the thought of anybody taking my babies away from me. To think that cows somehow aren't traumatized by that because they are not human is absurd.



Recently, when I made the shift back from lacto-ovo vegetarian to vegan, I was considering the life of a dairy cow and calf on the "humane" farm I used to buy from, Organic Valley. When I wrote to them, the assured me that the mother cow gets to nurse her calf for a full five days, and then the calves are lovingly raised by the farmers and bottle-fed formula, and they would never be sent to a veal farm. Which is...better...BUT...then I imagined if I were the mother cow and that were my baby. How would I have felt if, after a few days home from the hospital with my babies, a nice social worker came to the door and said, "I'm taking your baby now, he is going to a very loving home where he will be well taken care of. Now, say goodbye and hand him to me." Yes, it would be better than seeing my baby placed in a tiny crate. But it would still be inimaginably horrible.





Exactly! And what eventually happens to these well cared for (male) calves when they are grown? What happens when a cow's milk production slows? Are they allowed to live out their life on the farm, or are they made into hamburger?
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#119 Old 01-09-2007, 12:44 PM
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Congrats Mr Meatless!!! Yayyyy!!!!!
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