Do animals have souls? - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
View Poll Results: Do animals have souls?
yes 0 0%
no 0 0%
don't understand the question 0 0%
it's not natural for animals to wear shoes 0 0%
ring the Neitchze bell 0 0%
don't care 0 0%
Voters: 0. You may not vote on this poll

Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#61 Old 05-31-2006, 03:23 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Mr. Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by nigel View Post

Well, it's pretty clear that it was ok to kill animals to wear their skins. In one case, God made the skin clothes for them!



Abel slew the first of his lot as a sacrifice - though back in those days God liked the smell of cooking meat, not necessarily the meat itself.



Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that, biblically speaking, God created humans to be vegan. After the fall God allowed and continues to allow all kinds of violence. But our nature is peace if you are going by the bible. Peace doesn't mean killing animals needlessly.
Mr. Sun is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#62 Old 05-31-2006, 03:26 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Mr. Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReginaCeltarum View Post

That doesn't necessarily mean God killed the animals Himself and skinned them, then took the time to dry out the skin, etc. God gave them skins to wear. If He created the entire universe ex nihilo, He could have easily manifested for them skins to wear.





Well said, there is no mention of animals being killed for their skins. God can manifest anything.
Mr. Sun is offline  
#63 Old 05-31-2006, 03:29 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Mr. Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by greentangle View Post

People can believe in any kind of imaginary thing they want to. I think the only difference between people who believe in gods and souls and people who believe in santa and the tooth fairy is that the god people do a lot more damage.



I completely agree that people are animals and the same rules apply.



Do people who don't believe in God do damage?
Mr. Sun is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#64 Old 05-31-2006, 03:35 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Mr. Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by madpoet View Post




I'm a confirmed Catholic though I've chosen Buddhism as my present form of worship. One reason is because I can not understand why the catechism does not condemn the exploitation of animals: eating, experimenting, etc. Perhaps, in time, the catechism will again be revised to include our brothers in this fashion. I had hoped Pope John Paul II would make the revision before passing. Salute to Pope John Paul II for his exclamation of animals having souls.





CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH



2415 The seventh commandment enjoins respect for the integrity of creation. Animal, like plants and inanimate beings, are by nature destined for the common good of past, present and future humanity. Use of the mineral, vegetable and animal resources of the universe cannot be divorced from respect for the moral imperatives. Man's dominion over inanimate and other living beings granted by the Creator is not absolute; it is limited by the concern for the quality of life of his neighbour, including generations to come; it requires a religious respect for the integrity of creation.



2416 Animals are God's creatures. He surrounds them with his providential care. By their mere existence they bless him and give him glory. Thus men owe them kindness. We should recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals.



2417 God entrusted animals to the stewardship of those whom he created in his own image. Hence it is legitimate to use animals for food and clothing. They may be domesticated to help man in his work and leisure. Medical and scientific experimentation on animals, if it remains within reasonable limits, is a morally acceptable practice since it contributes to caring for or saving human lives.



2418 It is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly. It is likewise unworthy to spend money on them that should as a priority go to the relief of human misery. One can love animals; one should not direct to them the affection due only to persons.



2457 Animals are entrusted to man's stewardship; he must show them kindness. They may be used to serve the just satisfaction of man's needs.




Everywhere I look there is such inconsistancy in what is said/written about animals. Here in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we read "it is contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer or die needlessly." Of course that makes sense so why doesn't the church promote vegetarianism? The excellent health of millions of vegetarians around the world proves that it is absolutely unnecessary for people to eat meat. This whole section on animals in the Catechism dances around the whole issue of cruelty to animals.



We are encouraged to "recall the gentleness with which saints like St. Francis of Assisi or St. Philip Neri treated animals."



Here's a short biography on St. Philip Neri:



Quote:
St. Filippo Neri spent his entire life protecting and rescuing other living creatures. Born in Florence in 1515, he went to Rome as a young man, and tried to live as an ascetic. He sold his books, giving away the money to the poor. He worked without pay in the city hospital, tending to the sick and the poor. He gave whatever he possessed to others.

St. Filippo loved the animals and could not bear to see them suffer. He took the mice caught in traps away from peoples homes and set them free in the fields and stables. A vegetarian, he could not endure walking past a butcher shop. "Ah," he exclaimed. "If everyone were like me, no one would kill animals!"



So are we to recall such gentleness but then endorse the torture of animals by eating meat?
Mr. Sun is offline  
#65 Old 05-31-2006, 04:18 PM
Beginner
 
madpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 175
Quote:
Everywhere I look there is such inconsistancy in what is said/written about animals.



Exactly, that's why I quit going to mass. Our priest made one too many blase jokes about hamburgers, hot dogs, etc for us. Something in me snapped and I haven't been back.
madpoet is offline  
#66 Old 05-31-2006, 04:58 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Mr. Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,955
But wouldn't you like to go back and start asking questions:



If it's contrary to human dignity to cause animals to suffer and die needlessly then isn't eating meat, for most people in the west, contrary to human dignity?



Why did God create humans to be vegan in the Garden of Eden?



Shouldn't we be trying to live out God's will as much as possible today? If God created us to be vegan isn't that closest, in terms of diet, to God's will?



People say Jesus ate meat but it seems he was also compliant with slavery -- why are Christians against slavery today if it is supported in the bible? Why did one of Jesus' key disciples endorse slavery (1 Peter 2)



Then you can watch them sweat it out, lol.



Seriously, though, if you keep in mind that no matter how much we try we cannot be free of violence I think you can ask these questions in all humility and I think you'll find that at least some people will carefully examine your concerns. Creating dialogue is important on the road to peace.
Mr. Sun is offline  
#67 Old 05-31-2006, 05:12 PM
Beginner
 
madpoet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 175
Quote:
But wouldn't you like to go back and start asking questions



My wife had a conversation with a priest in our parish. The priest told her that he is not concerned with the animals when there are humans starving. He couldn't grasp the point that the food given to animals would feed more humans than meat. He was rather nasty about it though we presented our concern with a big slice of humble pie.



I couldn't tell you the number of veg starter kits that we handed out at our parish. We never heard ANY positive feedback from anyone who we gave kits to. They all seemed to trample each other trying to be first in line to the 'bacon, egg, pancake' breakfast hoedowns and the Knight's BBQ's. It left us with a surreal feeling of defeat. Even people we considered friends at mass didn't want to comment.
madpoet is offline  
#68 Old 05-31-2006, 09:50 PM
Newbie
 
greentangle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 13
Re my: I think the only difference between people who believe in gods and souls and people who believe in santa and the tooth fairy is that the god people do a lot more damage.



And Mr Sun's reply: Do people who don't believe in God do damage?



Well, I was comparing the damage levels of various delusions, not of theists vs atheists. All people do damage. But no, I don't recall any organized Crusades, Missionaries, Wars, Terrorists, or Bushes in the name of No-God. Certainly some governments have repressed religion, but religions also gladly do that to other religions when they have the chance.
greentangle is offline  
#69 Old 06-01-2006, 12:03 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Mr. Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by greentangle View Post

Re my: I think the only difference between people who believe in gods and souls and people who believe in santa and the tooth fairy is that the god people do a lot more damage.



And Mr Sun's reply: Do people who don't believe in God do damage?



Well, I was comparing the damage levels of various delusions, not of theists vs atheists. All people do damage. But no, I don't recall any organized Crusades, Missionaries, Wars, Terrorists, or Bushes in the name of No-God. Certainly some governments have repressed religion, but religions also gladly do that to other religions when they have the chance.



As far as I know the civil war in the States had nothing to do with religion. There have been many wars fought around the world over land. Analysts say that in the future wars will be fought over water.



Even wars that people think are religious have nothing to do with religion. Northern Ireland is a classic example. The war is over land not religion. One could say the religion is about accents just as much as religion. It just happens that they have different religions. I've never heard either side say "I hate the way they interpret that bible passage -- they must die!!!". It's not a religious war.



Religious people fight in wars. Non-religious people fight in wars. Some wars are over religion, some are not. If there were no religions we would just have wars about something else.
Mr. Sun is offline  
#70 Old 06-01-2006, 12:05 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Mr. Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,955
Quote:
Originally Posted by madpoet View Post

My wife had a conversation with a priest in our parish. The priest told her that he is not concerned with the animals when there are humans starving. He couldn't grasp the point that the food given to animals would feed more humans than meat. He was rather nasty about it though we presented our concern with a big slice of humble pie.



I couldn't tell you the number of veg starter kits that we handed out at our parish. We never heard ANY positive feedback from anyone who we gave kits to. They all seemed to trample each other trying to be first in line to the 'bacon, egg, pancake' breakfast hoedowns and the Knight's BBQ's. It left us with a surreal feeling of defeat. Even people we considered friends at mass didn't want to comment.



Hmmmm... that sucks!!!



Good on you for trying though.
Mr. Sun is offline  
#71 Old 06-01-2006, 01:38 PM
Newbie
 
Fox in Sox's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 36
I like your philosophy michigan roman! I believe animals have souls, and i would like to believe that we get reincarnated depending on how you've lived your life. Its a very interesting subject!
Fox in Sox is offline  
#72 Old 06-01-2006, 01:41 PM
Newbie
 
JIMNSC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 31
Please define "soul."
JIMNSC is offline  
#73 Old 06-01-2006, 02:08 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Mr. Sun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 4,955
My defintion of soul is that essense of a person that lives on after death -- either to go to Heaven or to "a heaven realm" (or "hell realm") as the Buddhists believe -- Buddhists teach that after one has "lived" for a time in one of those realms that person will be reborn. Once one has been fully liberated or enlightened one will live out that last life and then be in Nirvanna. Buddhists do not really teach that one has a "soul" but I think it's just a matter of language not being able to adequately express a true understanding of a concept that is, imo, beyond the human intellect.



I feel that a soul may be reborn or may simply live on in the afterlife place. There are sects of Jews that also believe in rebirth and as a Christian I also feel it is possible. It seems to me that animals do have souls.
Mr. Sun is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off