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#1 Old 02-23-2006, 11:55 AM
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I was just wondering, a lot of medicines are tested on animals, we don't always know which ones (or atleast i don't think you can tell). Someone said to me once that you can't go completely animal friendly because at one point or another you are going to need anti-biotics for something. I have been on anti-depressants for almost 2 years, i cant come off them just yet as i may slip back in to being bulimic. I am sure these were probably tested on animals at one point, they said that this in a way makes me a hypocryte.



Is there anyone who refuses to use anything which has hurt animals of any kind? or do u have to draw the line at some point?
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#2 Old 02-23-2006, 12:38 PM
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*raises hand*



In 2001 I had to do an engineering survey of the AFIP in D.C. (animal testing facility). What I saw on the 5th floor made me so sick that I walked out, quit my job and swore I'd never use any animal tested product ever again.



That was no small step for me, because at the time I was diagnosed with stage 2 hypertension (high blood pressure) and I was told I'd have to take meds for the rest of my life or die horribly. I flushed all my pills anyway, cleaned up my act, and now my blood pressure is like in the single digits, it's so low.



Oh yeah, some shrink prescribed me anti-depressants also. I flushed em. I won't even take aspirin.



But oscars, you're not necessarily a hypocrite. With each person it'll be different, so I don't expect everyone to be as extreme. I just wanted to point out that it works for me. If I die horribly, I'll be sure to let you guys know!
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#3 Old 02-23-2006, 05:03 PM
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I stopped taking allergy medications and I intend to avoid any other prescription medications not necessary to my survival. Ultimately, if an animal-tested is required to save my life, I will not turn it down. Self-preservation kicks in at that point.



I figure if we support "alternative" research methods, we can play a part in reducing (and perhaps one day eliminating) the use of animals in research/testing. Part of that is political, since labs are required by law to test new drugs on animals before moving to human trials, from what I understand.
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#4 Old 02-23-2006, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oscarsbaby View Post

Is there anyone who refuses to use anything which has hurt animals of any kind? or do u have to draw the line at some point?



generally speaking i don't take medicine, but not necessarily 'cause of the animal testing involved. i have been anti-medicine, even before going vegan. i do draw the line at some point though, and that point would be if i'm deathly ill. in such case, i will take medicine. my life is being threatened, i want to live, and medicine will allow me to do so(unless it fails to cure.lol.).
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#5 Old 02-23-2006, 06:27 PM
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It never made sense to me why companies test on animals. Why dont they test on sick people who they think the drugs will help? After all, the animals wont ever benefit from the drugs.
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#6 Old 02-23-2006, 07:24 PM
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I'm against extremely on certain animals, dogs, cats, monkeys, and so forth, but I am perfectly comfortable with testing done on mice and rats. Are you all really comfortable with using untested products, including medicine? Not me. If some mice and rats have to die so I can be sure the products I buy are safe, so be it. I salute them.
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#7 Old 02-23-2006, 07:28 PM
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Originally Posted by DeflatorMouse View Post


That was no small step for me, because at the time I was diagnosed with stage 2 hypertension (high blood pressure) and I was told I'd have to take meds for the rest of my life or die horribly. I flushed all my pills anyway, cleaned up my act, and now my blood pressure is like in the single digits, it's so low.



Oh yeah, some shrink prescribed me anti-depressants also. I flushed em. I won't even take aspirin.



How did you treat the high blood pressure?



How do you treat the depression?



Thanks.
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#8 Old 02-23-2006, 07:31 PM
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I'm against extremely on certain animals, dogs, cats, monkeys, and so forth, but I am perfectly comfortable with testing done on mice and rats.

And why do you think mice and rats are different?

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#9 Old 02-23-2006, 07:52 PM
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How did you treat the high blood pressure?



How do you treat the depression?



Thanks.

i used to suffer depression, never took meds either. i can't remember exactly how i overcame it though. it was a series of events/steps.
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#10 Old 02-23-2006, 07:55 PM
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I don't know how people "overcome" depression. Maybe it is situational depression, or something...
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#11 Old 02-23-2006, 07:58 PM
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I don't know how people "overcome" depression.

By not being depressed anymore, as a result of medication, therapy or something else? I've never heard about the idea that it would be a life-long condition by definition.

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#12 Old 02-23-2006, 08:00 PM
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I've never heard about the idea that it would be a life-long condition by definition.





Unipolar depression and manic depression are lifelong conditions for many people who experience these illnesses.



Yet, you have never heard of this....
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#13 Old 02-23-2006, 08:05 PM
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Unipolar depression and manic depression are lifelong conditions for many people who experience these illnesses.

Many =/= all.



eta: And I don't want to present myself as an authority on this (off-topic) issue, I just mentioned what I've thought.

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#14 Old 02-23-2006, 08:17 PM
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Ok................
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#15 Old 02-23-2006, 08:41 PM
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I hafta agree with Ludi (for now at least). I don't think depression can be overcome 100%. Sure, it can be masked with drugs & coping techniques, but I don't consider that a cure. Imo depression is just the way your brain works, part of what makes you who you are. That's why, animal testing aside, I don't agree with drug treatments that artificially change your mood & thought patterns.



I read that "situational depression" is often caused by isolation. They say the most effective way of dealing with that is simply to make lots of friends. (Um... I have trouble making friends so I made lots of sock puppets instead.) Other non-drug treatments include: healthy diet, excercise and yoga. And of course a fuzzy dog doesn't hurt. Seriously, dog people suffer less depression they say because keeping a dog forces you to exercise, get fresh air and you've also got an instant friend.



As for the blood pressure, that was a lot easier. I cut out all salt, and within a month my blood pressure was down 20 pts. I also started drinking water like a friggin fish, and I went on a juice fast for a month.



Anyway, these techniques may not work for everyone, but they're worth looking into. There's also the really alternative stuff like acupuncture, etc... but whoa that sorta creeps me out.
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#16 Old 02-23-2006, 11:46 PM
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And why do you think mice and rats are different?



Because they are just little disease carrying furballs. The world is crawling with this little critters. We might as well put them to good use. A dog, a cat, a monkey- you can play with them. When they look you in the eyes you can tell what mood they are in. Sometimes you almost forget they aren't human. A mouse or a rat? What can you do with a mice or a rat? Nothing- except run experiments on them.
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#17 Old 02-24-2006, 01:52 AM
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I was told that depression is due to a chemical imbalance in the brain. My drugs are to restore this balance, however if i stop taking them the chemicals will lower and i will be depressed, eventually they will be at normal rate permanently. Depression runs in our family along with anxiety, even when i got a dog i was still depressed and when i excersised or ate healthy i got obsessed, the anti-depressants stopped me from doing this. I don't know what else would have made me better. How does someone like me survive without drugs??
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#18 Old 02-24-2006, 06:12 AM
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I hafta agree with Ludi (for now at least). I don't think depression can be overcome 100%. Sure, it can be masked with drugs & coping techniques, but I don't consider that a cure. Imo depression is just the way your brain works, part of what makes you who you are. That's why, animal testing aside, I don't agree with drug treatments that artificially change your mood & thought patterns.



I read that "situational depression" is often caused by isolation. They say the most effective way of dealing with that is simply to make lots of friends. (Um... I have trouble making friends so I made lots of sock puppets instead.) Other non-drug treatments include: healthy diet, excercise and yoga. And of course a fuzzy dog doesn't hurt. Seriously, dog people suffer less depression they say because keeping a dog forces you to exercise, get fresh air and you've also got an instant friend.



As for the blood pressure, that was a lot easier. I cut out all salt, and within a month my blood pressure was down 20 pts. I also started drinking water like a friggin fish, and I went on a juice fast for a month.



Anyway, these techniques may not work for everyone, but they're worth looking into. There's also the really alternative stuff like acupuncture, etc... but whoa that sorta creeps me out.



Ok, um, thanks. I'm happy for you that these worked. Okey dokey.
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#19 Old 02-24-2006, 06:15 AM
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Because they are just little disease carrying furballs. The world is crawling with this little critters. We might as well put them to good use. A dog, a cat, a monkey- you can play with them. When they look you in the eyes you can tell what mood they are in. Sometimes you almost forget they aren't human. A mouse or a rat? What can you do with a mice or a rat? Nothing- except run experiments on them.









Mice and rats are cute little animals. Rats especially can be very affectionate. In any case these animals don't exist for our purposes, our "use."
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#20 Old 02-24-2006, 06:17 AM
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Joker rhymes with Provoker.
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#21 Old 02-24-2006, 06:51 AM
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I was told that depression is due to a chemical imbalance in the brain. My drugs are to restore this balance, however if i stop taking them the chemicals will lower and i will be depressed, eventually they will be at normal rate permanently. Depression runs in our family along with anxiety, even when i got a dog i was still depressed and when i excersised or ate healthy i got obsessed, the anti-depressants stopped me from doing this. I don't know what else would have made me better. How does someone like me survive without drugs??



That's a tight spot. And ya, I understand how depression runs in the family. My dad's side is a total gloom-o-rific basket case, but luckily my mom's side is all sunshine. So I get a nice little war going on inside my brain



Anyway, the biggest help for me has been creative expression. Do you write? Paint? Play music? Act? Build things? These are things you can channel your depression into. That way you give your depression a purpose. And the world may get another Edgar Allen Poe, or a Van Gogh. If that makes any sense. I think one of these artistic outlets would be perfect for you, because you already have the obsession thing going (OCD helps in this case).



Maybe the best for you is to keep taking your meds but realize that it's only temporary. In the meantime you can explore all the other ways of dealing with it. Btw, have you checked out some of the online depression/ED forums? Those are really helpful and a lot of fun sometimes.
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#22 Old 02-24-2006, 10:19 AM
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Mice and rats are cute little animals. Rats especially can be very affectionate. In any case these animals don't exist for our purposes, our "use."



What do they exist for?
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#23 Old 02-24-2006, 10:26 AM
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Nothing exists "for" anything, everything just exists.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#24 Old 02-24-2006, 10:31 AM
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Joker rhymes with Provoker.



You must be a poet.



Now, you say this like it's a bad thing. What's wrong with a little provocation? You guys like healthy stuff, right? Well, why not a little healthy debate? It gets the blood flowing back up to the brain again. Besides, what fun is it if everyone agrees all the time?
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#25 Old 02-24-2006, 10:40 AM
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Nothing exists "for" anything, everything just exists.



You could be right. Honestly, I don't really know why anything exists? Is there a purpose? Isn't there? Who cares? I what I do know is animals "use" each other all for the things they need, for there survival. Tell a lion after he brings down an antelope that it wasn't put here for him to "use," and he will scratch his head in bewilderment- right before he pounces on you, slices open your throat and consumes you. That nature's way. Life uses life for survival. Why should we be any different?
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#26 Old 02-24-2006, 10:48 AM
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That nature's way. Life uses life for survival. Why should we be any different?

We shouldn't - let's stop caring for the elderly and the disabled, and follow "the nature's way".



The whole argument based on "what the other animals do" is very arbitrary and inconsistent. Human society isn't modelled on the basis of how other species behave.

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#27 Old 02-24-2006, 11:17 AM
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We shouldn't - let's stop caring for the elderly and the disabled, and follow "the nature's way".



Wild animals do care for their elderly and disabled. Well, perhaps not all, but certainly the more sophisticated species do.



Quote:
The whole argument based on "what the other animals do" is very arbitrary and inconsistent. Human society isn't modelled on the basis of how other species behave.



You're right, and I'm not really saying we should use animals for our own survival simply because other animals do. My point is life cannot survive without feeding on other life, without using other life in some way. That's a fact. You can't deny that by saying human society is different.



But I apologize. I've pushed this thread a bit off topic. Let's get back to animal testing. Let's take a hypothetical situation. Let's say today doctors announced that they discovered a cure for cancer. This new cure can wipe out all forms of cancer with no more nasty side effects than taking a couple tylenol for a headache.



"How did you discover this miracle breakthrough drug?" one reporter asks.



"We tested it on some rats and it proved effective."



Now here's a drug that will save countless human lives in the future from the ravages of cancer and the archaic treatments that exist today to fight it. Would you protest this drug because perhaps a few rats had to die to make it?
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#28 Old 02-24-2006, 11:31 AM
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My point is life cannot survive without feeding on other life, without using other life in some way. That's a fact. You can't deny that by saying human society is different.

Yeah but it doesn't necessarily have to be sentient life, and I also don't think survival automatically trumps all other ethical considerations.



Quote:
Would you protest this drug because perhaps a few rats had to die to make it?

What would this protest consist in? I don't believe that after we have already secured information through unethical means, we have to pretend that we don't have that information or refuse to benefit from it. However, I do believe that these would be unethical means which shouldn't be used. If I didn't believe so, I wouldn't have, in principle at least, any tenable reason to oppose medical experiments on the mentally disabled, or orphan infants, etc.

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#29 Old 02-24-2006, 11:56 AM
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What would this protest consist in?



"Protest" probably wasn't the best choice of words. "Boycott" would have been more appropriate, but you've already answered the question either way.



Quote:
I don't believe that after we have already secured information through unethical means, we have to pretend that we don't have that information or refuse to benefit from it. However, I do believe that these would be unethical means which shouldn't be used.



So, IOW, it's wrong to test on animals, but if the info gained from it is beneficial, than it's okay? Well, that's something I can agree with you on. Although I wouldn't necessarily say it is wrong, but I would support eliminating animal testing if a better method were created, but then, who wouldn't?



Quote:
If I didn't believe so, I wouldn't have, in principle at least, any tenable reason to oppose medical experiments on the mentally disabled, or orphan infants, etc.



So are you suggesting that the tests done on Jews during WW2 by the Nazis is comparable to doctors today testing new medicine on mice and rats?
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#30 Old 02-24-2006, 12:09 PM
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So, IOW, it's wrong to test on animals, but if the info gained from it is beneficial, than it's okay?

No, beneficial info doesn't make testing okay.



I'm saying that it's wrong to test on animals but not necessarily wrong to benefit from them, when the harm has already happened (because people have acted unethically despite your views or protests about it) and you don't cause more harm by benefitting from them.



In the same way, I think that the Nazi experiments on humans were unethical, but if (as I've read) they gave some useful information, I don't think we have to reject that information now - it won't undo the harm that was already done (but which shouldn't have been done).



Quote:
So are you suggesting that the tests done on Jews during WW2 by the Nazis is comparable to doctors today testing new medicine on mice and rats?

I'm suggesting that arguments defending either one will probably be similar to each other (for example, in one case one may argue that race is morally essential, and in the other case, that species is morally essential, and both these reasons are equally arbitrary).

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made of weak and useless men"

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