Principles - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
 3Likes
  • 1 Post By silva
  • 1 Post By silva
  • 1 Post By Citrus333
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 09-09-2019, 01:36 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Posts: 1
Principles

Humans have a moral obligation to protect non-human higher animals.

Higher animals, such as mammals and birds, are born with an advanced nervous system which can enable them to feel. Therefore, like humans, non-human higher animals also have the right to live and not to suffer abuse.

Non-human animals are innocent, but humans can be good or evil.

Non-human animals should not be condemned for killing others. Non-human animals have low intelligence, so they cannot be required to consider other individuals' feelings. In comparison, adult humans are very intelligent, so they are able to consider and understand other individuals' feelings. Therefore, if an adult human has killed or abused a non-human higher animal, this human is evil.

Humans must fight against cruel nature.

Nature has no empathy at all, but human morality is empathic. Therefore, human beings must fight against cruel nature and protect every non-human higher animal.
kaichen123456789 is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 09-10-2019, 06:25 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 87
Say what?

I don't understand the concept of "non-human higher animals" (emphasis mine). Are there lower animals? Which beings, and be specific, "deserve" to be protected and which don't?
Citrus333 is offline  
#3 Old 09-15-2019, 08:22 AM
Super Moderator
 
silva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 8,951
This exact post was made with a different username some time ago. I don't know if this is a cut and paste thing, or the same person registering a new username, or -- why?

I searched the post and found they also posted it on Happycow.
There is nothing against our terms of service to cause it to be removed, but it certainly goes against my reasons for being vegan!

If animals are 'lower intellegence' why can't humans find each other miles apart? or their direction home? or to safety prior to extreme weather? or be the cause of climate change and species extinction? What is the OP's definition of intelligence? Just what they think matters?

And good and evil? A LOT of hubris in this post!
Citrus333 likes this.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
silva is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#4 Old 12-02-2019, 12:15 AM
Newbie
 
KAICHEN619's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus333 View Post
I don't understand the concept of "non-human higher animals" (emphasis mine). Are there lower animals? Which beings, and be specific, "deserve" to be protected and which don't?
Some animals have a very simple nervous system, such as insects and oysters, which means that they have lower ability to feel, or do not have sentience at all.

Higher animals such as mammals and birds have very advanced nervous systems, which means they are more capable of feeling (and suffering). That's why we should focus on protecting higher animals.
KAICHEN619 is offline  
#5 Old 12-02-2019, 12:42 AM
Newbie
 
KAICHEN619's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
This exact post was made with a different username some time ago. I don't know if this is a cut and paste thing, or the same person registering a new username, or -- why?

I searched the post and found they also posted it on Happycow.
There is nothing against our terms of service to cause it to be removed, but it certainly goes against my reasons for being vegan!

If animals are 'lower intellegence' why can't humans find each other miles apart? or their direction home? or to safety prior to extreme weather? or be the cause of climate change and species extinction? What is the OP's definition of intelligence? Just what they think matters?

And good and evil? A LOT of hubris in this post!
Firstly I must point out that you are very illogical. Does the ability to sense others miles apart have anything to do with intelligence? You can very well be a retard but with very good eyesight or hearing.

Animals are less intelligent than humans. I think it's a fact so obvious that any reasonable man would have no doubt about it. And the reason why i point out this fact is because i believe with higher intelligence, humans should have more responsibilities.

And because humans have high intelligence, they can understand other individuals' feelings and sufferings well. Therefore, if humans cause suffering to animals, they are absolutely evil, because they are intelligent enough and thus fully aware that their behaviors are causing the suffering. That's why i say there are good people and evil people, but animals are all innocent.

We can't say a cat is evil because he tortures and kills a mouse. But if a human does the same thing, he is obviously evil and should be punished. It's just like the application of laws - usually the same penalties don't apply to children and insane people, because they are considered not intelligent enough.

Last edited by KAICHEN619; 12-02-2019 at 01:01 AM.
KAICHEN619 is offline  
#6 Old 12-03-2019, 07:30 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 87
How DARE you use a word like "retard"? To people with developmental disabilities, the people who love them, and anyone with any manners and sense, that's as vile as the n-word. Shame on you and anyone who uses it in any form. I'm convinced, however, after reading your utterly nonsensical response to Silva, that you are likely incapable of shame. Learn things. Seriously, learn things. And please, please stop using that word for any reason, in any form, when applied to any being.
Citrus333 is offline  
#7 Old 12-03-2019, 07:33 PM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by KAICHEN619 View Post
Some animals have a very simple nervous system, such as insects and oysters, which means that they have lower ability to feel, or do not have sentience at all.

Higher animals such as mammals and birds have very advanced nervous systems, which means they are more capable of feeling (and suffering). That's why we should focus on protecting higher animals.
Baloney. Pure baloney. Every living thing has an important place in the earth's ecosystem. That you don't know this speaks volumes about your knowledge and life experience.
Citrus333 is offline  
#8 Old 12-04-2019, 11:03 PM
Newbie
 
KAICHEN619's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus333 View Post
How DARE you use a word like "retard"? To people with developmental disabilities, the people who love them, and anyone with any manners and sense, that's as vile as the n-word. Shame on you and anyone who uses it in any form. I'm convinced, however, after reading your utterly nonsensical response to Silva, that you are likely incapable of shame. Learn things. Seriously, learn things. And please, please stop using that word for any reason, in any form, when applied to any being.
Is my word choice relevant to the discussion? Do you realize you are completely off the subject? I think you should really learn to improve your reasoning skills (if you have the capability to do so).

If you think my view is “non-sensical”, please explain and give reasons. As for the word choice and other irrelevant comments you made, I won’t waste time responding to them.
KAICHEN619 is offline  
#9 Old 12-04-2019, 11:04 PM
Newbie
 
KAICHEN619's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus333 View Post
Baloney. Pure baloney. Every living thing has an important place in the earth's ecosystem. That you don't know this speaks volumes about your knowledge and life experience.
I was talking about the reason for protecting animals, which is their suffering. But you mentioned the ecosystem.

You mean you “protect” animals for the ecosystem? Then what if the population of an animal species gets so large that harms the ecosystem? There are many people killing sentient animals for the sake of the environment and ecosystem. And I guess you probably support them, right?

Unlike you, I protect animals only because I feel empathetic towards their suffering, not for the environment or something else. And to me, those who kill the animals for the environment are just as evil as slaughterers.

Meanwhile, I said we should focus on protecting higher animals because they are more capable of feeling and suffering, but you responded with “every living thing has an important place”.

Every day, animals such as pigs and cows are being slaughtered. Their suffering is huge, because they have developed very advanced nervous systems. But you are here saying “every living thing has an important place”. What is the point? Are you trying to say that those higher animals, with advanced nervous systems and therefore strong capability of feeling, are just the same as insects and plants?

Your point is totally the same as those who oppose animal rights and vegetarianism. They defend slaughterers by saying killing a cow is just like killing a bug because they are all animals. They criticize vegetarianism by saying that eating meat is not different from eating vegetables because they are all living things. By blurring the difference between animals who have an advanced nervous system and those who do not, and the difference between animals and plants, you are distracting people from paying attention to those who really suffer.

So, you are either a person who is not very smart and logically inconsistent, or just a hypocrite who doesn’t really care about the suffering animals.

Last edited by KAICHEN619; 12-04-2019 at 11:33 PM.
KAICHEN619 is offline  
#10 Old 12-05-2019, 05:46 PM
Super Moderator
 
silva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 8,951
Quote:
Originally Posted by KAICHEN619 View Post
Firstly I must point out that you are very illogical. Does the ability to sense others miles apart have anything to do with intelligence? You can very well be a retard but with very good eyesight or hearing.

Animals are less intelligent than humans. I think it's a fact so obvious that any reasonable man would have no doubt about it. And the reason why i point out this fact is because i believe with higher intelligence, humans should have more responsibilities.

And because humans have high intelligence, they can understand other individuals' feelings and sufferings well. Therefore, if humans cause suffering to animals, they are absolutely evil, because they are intelligent enough and thus fully aware that their behaviors are causing the suffering. That's why i say there are good people and evil people, but animals are all innocent.

We can't say a cat is evil because he tortures and kills a mouse. But if a human does the same thing, he is obviously evil and should be punished. It's just like the application of laws - usually the same penalties don't apply to children and insane people, because they are considered not intelligent enough.
"intelligence" is defined by humans, and has been used to demean and control by those in power in much the same ways as religion.
Human 'intelligence' has been the cause of extinctions, deforestation, food related diseases, pollution of air, land and water--but according to you, our 'intelligence' makes us superior beings

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
silva is offline  
#11 Old 12-05-2019, 05:52 PM
Super Moderator
 
silva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 8,951
Quote:
Originally Posted by KAICHEN619 View Post
Is my word choice relevant to the discussion? Do you realize you are completely off the subject? I think you should really learn to improve your reasoning skills (if you have the capability to do so).

If you think my view is “non-sensical”, please explain and give reasons. As for the word choice and other irrelevant comments you made, I won’t waste time responding to them.
Citrus33 is quite on topic. You used a word that has been used to classify people as inferior. You use it much the same as you classify animals as less than humans.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
silva is offline  
#12 Old 12-06-2019, 06:26 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by KAICHEN619 View Post
Is my word choice relevant to the discussion? Do you realize you are completely off the subject? I think you should really learn to improve your reasoning skills (if you have the capability to do so).
Yes, it is relevant. It's not off-topic. But you know this. It's just your way of deflecting so you don't have to apologize for using a deeply offensive word.
Citrus333 is offline  
#13 Old 12-06-2019, 06:27 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
Citrus33 is quite on topic. You used a word that has been used to classify people as inferior. You use it much the same as you classify animals as less than humans.
Exactly. And worth quoting and re-quoting.
Citrus333 is offline  
#14 Old 12-07-2019, 02:04 AM
Newbie
 
KAICHEN619's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
"intelligence" is defined by humans, and has been used to demean and control by those in power in much the same ways as religion.
Human 'intelligence' has been the cause of extinctions, deforestation, food related diseases, pollution of air, land and water--but according to you, our 'intelligence' makes us superior beings
Which word is not defined by humans? I’m talking about the general meaning of intelligence. If you want to define intelligence in your own way, keep the definition for yourself, cuz it’s irrelevant to the discussion.

I never say humans are superior or animals are inferior. I say animals are less intelligent than adult humans, which is obvious. In fact, it is you who associates low intelligence with inferiority and thus assumes that I regard animals as inferior.

I never say intelligence is good or bad either. Obviously intelligence itself is neither good or bad. It is the people who use intelligence to do good or bad things. You mentioned about using intelligence to cause destruction, but so what? Is it relevant to my points?

What I say is that because humans have high intelligence, they have more responsibility. Use your brain, think about why those who are not intelligent enough, such as children and mentally disabled people, can be exempt from penalties if they commit a crime, and then try to understand my point.
KAICHEN619 is offline  
#15 Old 12-07-2019, 02:05 AM
Newbie
 
KAICHEN619's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12
With high intelligence, humans are more capable of understanding things, including other individuals’ feeling and suffering. So, humans who cause suffering to animals are evil and should be punished, because they totally understand that their behaviors will cause suffering but still choose to do so.
KAICHEN619 is offline  
#16 Old 12-07-2019, 02:08 AM
Newbie
 
KAICHEN619's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus333 View Post
Yes, it is relevant. It's not off-topic. But you know this. It's just your way of deflecting so you don't have to apologize for using a deeply offensive word.
You never really respond to my points in the posts, but keep talking about something else.

And you still think you are on topic?

You are funny, and you did really show your mental capacity.
KAICHEN619 is offline  
#17 Old 12-07-2019, 05:33 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by KAICHEN619 View Post
You never really respond to my points in the posts, but keep talking about something else.

And you still think you are on topic?

You are funny, and you did really show your mental capacity.
I've said all I want to say about your views. Your use of a slur is disgusting and, for me, your posts are no longer worthy of response. Feel free to have the last word. I'm blocking you so I don't have to see any more of your disgraceful slurs.
Citrus333 is offline  
#18 Old 12-07-2019, 04:46 PM
Super Moderator
 
silva's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 8,951
Quote:
Originally Posted by KAICHEN619 View Post
Which word is not defined by humans? I’m talking about the general meaning of intelligence. If you want to define intelligence in your own way, keep the definition for yourself, cuz it’s irrelevant to the discussion.

I never say humans are superior or animals are inferior. I say animals are less intelligent than adult humans, which is obvious. In fact, it is you who associates low intelligence with inferiority and thus assumes that I regard animals as inferior.

I never say intelligence is good or bad either. Obviously intelligence itself is neither good or bad. It is the people who use intelligence to do good or bad things. You mentioned about using intelligence to cause destruction, but so what? Is it relevant to my points?

What I say is that because humans have high intelligence, they have more responsibility. Use your brain, think about why those who are not intelligent enough, such as children and mentally disabled people, can be exempt from penalties if they commit a crime, and then try to understand my point.
How did humans get the upper hand--from violence-killing, trapping, enslaving, colonizing. This because of our 'higher' intelligence.
So you propose we instead use it control other animals and humans with 'lesser' intelligence, and see that as a good thing? Sounds like you'd also advocate fascism.
Vegans are against speciecism, and that is exactly what you've been advocating
Citrus333 likes this.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good
silva is offline  
#19 Old 12-08-2019, 06:33 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
So you propose we instead use it control other animals and humans with 'lesser' intelligence, and see that as a good thing? Sounds like you'd also advocate fascism.
Vegans are against speciecism, and that is exactly what you've been advocating
Your points are excellent, particularly the one about fascism. I hadn't thought about it that way (regarding this thread), so thanks for the reminder.
silva likes this.
Citrus333 is offline  
#20 Old 12-10-2019, 06:02 AM
Newbie
 
KAICHEN619's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
How did humans get the upper hand--from violence-killing, trapping, enslaving, colonizing. This because of our 'higher' intelligence.
So you propose we instead use it control other animals and humans with 'lesser' intelligence, and see that as a good thing? Sounds like you'd also advocate fascism.
Vegans are against speciecism, and that is exactly what you've been advocating
You have been twisting my points since the beginning. When did I say animals are inferior, and when did I ever say that humans should use intelligence to control animals?

I said very clearly in my previous posts: due to humans’ high intelligence, they have more moral responsibility, which is to protect animals from suffering and prevent humans themselves from causing suffering to animals. But you somehow accused me of advocating for using intelligence to control animals? Seriously what is your problem?

Quote:
Originally Posted by KAICHEN619 View Post
I never say intelligence is good or bad either. Obviously intelligence itself is neither good or bad. It is the people who use intelligence to do good or bad things. You mentioned about using intelligence to cause destruction, but so what? Is it relevant to my points?
Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
How did humans get the upper hand--from violence-killing, trapping, enslaving, colonizing. This because of our 'higher' intelligence.
I already explained that your examples of using intelligence to do bad things are unrelated to my points. Did I not explain it clearly or you really have a problem with your comprehension and reasoning?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silva View Post
Vegans are against speciecism, and that is exactly what you've been advocating
Oh, after accusing me of considering animals inferior and advocating for controling animals, now you say i'm advocating for speciecism. You are really good at making accusations.

And after twisting my points and showing your bizarre logic, now you want to represent vegans? You can’t represent me though, and perhaps not many want to be represented by you either. LOL

Last edited by KAICHEN619; 12-10-2019 at 07:27 AM.
KAICHEN619 is offline  
#21 Old 12-10-2019, 06:05 AM
Newbie
 
KAICHEN619's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Citrus333 View Post
Your points are excellent, particularly the one about fascism. I hadn't thought about it that way (regarding this thread), so thanks for the reminder.
Oh, I thought you are gone.

You two can really hang out together, cuz you really have very similar mental capacity LOL
KAICHEN619 is offline  
#22 Old 12-10-2019, 07:17 AM
Newbie
 
KAICHEN619's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12
Speaking of control. I do advocate controlling humans. People who cause suffering to animals, such as slaughterers and hunters, should be controlled and punished.
KAICHEN619 is offline  
#23 Old 12-10-2019, 09:50 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 489
1. Kaichen, I think they're right that we shouldn't use the word retard. Some of your wording "evil" and "higher" perhaps wasn't the right choice either. The problem with your arguments isn't that they aren't logical or rational, it's that they are worded in an imperfect way.

2. These type of threads where someone tries to post an intellectual opinion and have a debate, and others just pile on and look for holes to pick and ways to get offended, are sadly common on several of the veg forums, and it's one of the reasons I don't, for now, post as much as I used to. Of course this will also lead to others not bothering to post, or join the forums.

3. Note that in point 2 I'm referring to the initial response prior to the word "retard" being used.

4. I think intelligence is a taboo topic. If someone says that they have always been physically stronger than average, or can run faster than average, or have above average memory, or have above average ability in a certain skill, or a good immune system so they don't get sick, then we think that's fine. But if someone says that they have above average IQ, or intelligence, we consider that a superior and arrogant comment to make and one that perhaps should not have been said. If you consider this carefully, this is simply cultural etiquette. It has no rational basis.

Last edited by Jamie in Chile; 12-10-2019 at 09:53 AM.
Jamie in Chile is offline  
#24 Old 12-10-2019, 08:37 PM
Newbie
 
KAICHEN619's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamie in Chile View Post
1. Kaichen, I think they're right that we shouldn't use the word retard. Some of your wording "evil" and "higher" perhaps wasn't the right choice either. The problem with your arguments isn't that they aren't logical or rational, it's that they are worded in an imperfect way.

2. These type of threads where someone tries to post an intellectual opinion and have a debate, and others just pile on and look for holes to pick and ways to get offended, are sadly common on several of the veg forums, and it's one of the reasons I don't, for now, post as much as I used to. Of course this will also lead to others not bothering to post, or join the forums.

3. Note that in point 2 I'm referring to the initial response prior to the word "retard" being used.

4. I think intelligence is a taboo topic. If someone says that they have always been physically stronger than average, or can run faster than average, or have above average memory, or have above average ability in a certain skill, or a good immune system so they don't get sick, then we think that's fine. But if someone says that they have above average IQ, or intelligence, we consider that a superior and arrogant comment to make and one that perhaps should not have been said. If you consider this carefully, this is simply cultural etiquette. It has no rational basis.
1

Maybe my word choice wasn’t quite appropriate. I’m still learning English though. But even so, I think I’ve expressed my views very clearly.

But as you can see, these two just keep ignoring and distorting my points and denying the facts. I don’t know what’s their problem.

2

I don’t know if intelligence is a taboo topic in the western world, but when we debate with others regarding animal rights, we need to talk about intelligence. Arguments like “because animals are low in intelligence, they can’t enjoy rights” are common. But instead of arguing back that individuals with low intelligence, such as children and mentally disabled people, also enjoy rights, some people just chose to deny the fact, like silva who associates better senses with intelligence. Don’t you think such an irrational statement will make things worse? If I were a non-vegetarian, I definitely wouldn’t be convinced and would probably think that veganism is irrational.

And talking about intelligence is also necessary for explaining one of my points: because humans have high intelligence, they have moral responsibility. People who are less intelligent, such as children and mentally disabled people, can’t bear legal responsibility if they commit a crime, because they are not intelligent enough to understand things. Similarly, animals can’t be accused if they cause suffering, because they are not intelligent enough to be required to have moral responsibility. However, adult humans are intelligent enough. So, if they cause suffering to animals, they totally know what they are doing, and therefore they have no excuses and are evil and should be punished.

Last edited by KAICHEN619; 12-10-2019 at 08:54 PM.
KAICHEN619 is offline  
#25 Old 12-11-2019, 03:57 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 489
Interesting that you say you are learning English. So, you are not a native speaker.


This is one of the reasons we shouldn't attack people for imperfect word choices....which I would argue is what the first two responses to your post were doing...attacking the imperfect word choices in the post rather than addressing the substance of the argument....of course they might feel differently....maybe they think they were addressing the substance of the argument and maybe they are right....that is subjective.


But in general, I think when people post on the forum we should give the benefit of the doubt. They may not be conversing in their native language. They may be children. Perhaps they left school at 14 and never had much of an education. Who knows what's behind an anonymous internet poster?



By all means criticize the word choices....but politely and in a civil way....for instance I think your use of "evil" is rather strong.....and perhaps will cause upset for no benefit.
Jamie in Chile is offline  
#26 Old 12-13-2019, 06:14 AM
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 87
To be clear, I did not attack anyone. Expressing an opinion, or even a fact, is not an attack. Being critical of someone or something is not an attack. The use of slurs is inexcusable and something I will always directly confront. Confrontation is not an attack.

Again, the use of slurs is inexcusable. Calling it out is not an attack.
Citrus333 is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off