Animals killing animals - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 11-16-2014, 02:51 AM
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Animals killing animals

How do you guys feel about this? Is it wrong? Should all major predators be removed? I used to work in a wolf sanctuary where the fed the wolves with entirely carcasses daily... some animals simply need meat to survive. But does that make them evil?
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#2 Old 11-16-2014, 03:31 AM
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No, it does not make those animals evil. It is however sad that there is such a need for sanctuaries in order to preserve animals like wolves. They have been hunted so mercilessly over the years that they nearly went extinct. I am currently involved in fights to stop the wolf hunt that was made legal in Minnesota last year, just a short time after wolves were taken off the endangered species list. Wolves provide a natural way to keep populations of deer in check and healthy since most predators go for the weak animal first, not the healthiest as humans do. By removing all predators, humans are trying to control every possible aspect of nature and it just isn't possible. We have done a terrible job of it so far. Also, what gives us a right to decide what animals are aloud to survive and which are ok to eradicate? Why not give all sentient beings the right to exist just as we have been given. Humans are the worst predators on the planet and the most unnecessary for its survival.

From what I understand from visiting the wolf sanctuary in Ely Minnesota, the deer carcasses given to the wolves there are mostly from deer found on the road that were hit by cars. I don't think they routinely kill deer to feed the wolves there but I could be wrong.

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#3 Old 02-13-2015, 09:56 AM
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How do you guys feel about this? Is it wrong? Should all major predators be removed? I used to work in a wolf sanctuary where the fed the wolves with entirely carcasses daily... some animals simply need meat to survive. But does that make them evil?

it doesn't make them evil. That's nature. What humans do is unnatural and far more cruel. and we are supposed to have morals.
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#4 Old 02-13-2015, 06:07 PM
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How do you guys feel about this? Is it wrong? Should all major predators be removed? I used to work in a wolf sanctuary where the fed the wolves with entirely carcasses daily... some animals simply need meat to survive. But does that make them evil?
The animals to which you refer are likely unable to make moral judgements. Hence they cannot be held responsible for their actions and are certainly not evil. They should not be killed off, if that is what you mean by "removed".

Ideally, they would live in the wild so that they would not need to be fed meat from slaughterhouses...
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Why is the suffering and killing of animals wrong? Because the value of a sentient organism's life is priceless. They are their own beings and have their own lives and loves. They have higher emotions and thought processes. Their minds are different from ours in degree, not kind - meaning that fundamentally there are critical similarities.
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#5 Old 02-14-2015, 08:55 AM
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The animals to which you refer are likely unable to make moral judgements.

As far as we know... maybe they are just evil like the rest of us humans!
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#6 Old 02-14-2015, 09:07 AM
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.. maybe they are just evil like the rest of us humans!
I've never ever thought of VeggieBoards' members as being evil but I guess you know yourself better than I do r.w.
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#7 Old 02-14-2015, 09:30 AM
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This is a system created by God, so we don't need to mess with it.
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#8 Old 02-14-2015, 09:51 AM
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My personal view is that where humankind is responsible for the endangerment of a species, it is our responsibility to help them while working towards a society which does not endanger them in the first instance.

Now while it may feel hypocritical to some vegans to sustain an animal by feeding it other animals, "it's the nature of the beast" and the rectifying of the real issue - the animals need our help and appropriate diets to survive in this world we have dominated to a worrying extent.

Animals do have morals in some instances that have been observed however it is not their choice to live in captivity, it is purely a consequence of our species selfish nature.

Predators have their space in the spectrum of living beings on this earth, without them populations of other animals can grow so rapidly that they destroy the environment/ecosystem in their area to the detriment of all other species. When the predator is preserved the balance is maintained and the animals seem to stay "in-check" with their surroundings.

I must say I am possibly in a minority when I say that if someone hunts their own dinner, I struggle to fault them for it. For me that "system" is probably as close to what's "right" as can be. Some of us believe that due to our advancements in technology, farming and processes etc, we can make the choice to live healthily without necessarily harming other livings-beings. It has some risks and obstacles to overcome/be-aware-of but it's something our advancement allows us to do. If for some reason it were discovered there was a fundamental flaw in vegetarian/vegan lifestyles that could not reasonably be overcome then I would fall into that line. For me the most damaging and hypocritical attitude though is the one where you eat animals of any origin/source yet you wish to remain oblivious to the realities involved i.e. mass slaughter of animals, animal abuse, the people that work in such places, the bacterial threats such a culture is propagating etc. etc.

Animals are just a place on a spectrum of life, it would be unfair with our advantages and concepts to judge them for their perceived savagery.
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#9 Old 02-14-2015, 11:05 AM
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I've never ever thought of VeggieBoards' members as being evil but I guess you know yourself better than I do r.w.

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#10 Old 02-14-2015, 12:26 PM
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Peace on Earth without murder does apply to animals also. Someday in the distant future - if this plant is destined to progress rather than regress (it should) greater harmony will eliminate excessive gross violence.

Caring about our health is caring about our very state of being and future which is a very good thing to be seriously concerned about making the most of.

 

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#11 Old 02-14-2015, 02:54 PM
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That's natural. Animals do it to survive
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it takes guts to be gentle and kind
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#12 Old 02-14-2015, 03:46 PM
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How do you guys feel about this? Is it wrong? Should all major predators be removed? I used to work in a wolf sanctuary where the fed the wolves with entirely carcasses daily... some animals simply need meat to survive. But does that make them evil?
I feed my cats meat. They're evil. But those two facts are mutually exclusive :P
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#13 Old 02-14-2015, 09:11 PM
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I feed my cats meat. They're evil. But those two facts are mutually exclusive :P
So are my 3 haha
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it takes guts to be gentle and kind
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#14 Old 02-14-2015, 09:38 PM
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I imagine, but can't prove, that human beings are morally bothered by violence because we are basically a vegan species*. If we had evolved from pure carnivores, I doubt that violence would bother our consciences.


* Our closest genetic cousins, the chimpanzees, do eat a certain amount of insects and meat (sometimes, famously, other chimpanzees). However, according to National Geographic, meat and animal products comprise less than 5% of a wild chimpanzee's diet. Chimpanzees are 95%+ vegan: http://education.nationalgeographic....-chimp/?ar_a=1
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#15 Old 02-15-2015, 06:08 AM
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I think the main difference is that we have far more capacity for empathy. Animals rape other animals right? But we don't, because we know for the person getting raped its hell. Animals probably don't have that capacity as much as humans.
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#16 Old 02-15-2015, 07:15 PM
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How do you guys feel about this? Is it wrong? Should all major predators be removed? I used to work in a wolf sanctuary where the fed the wolves with entirely carcasses daily... some animals simply need meat to survive. But does that make them evil?
I don't think non-human animals, besides perhaps some of our primate cousins and other highly intelligent animals, are at all capable of moral reasoning in the way most humans are. It's like if a two year old shoots his/her parent. That doesn't make the two year old evil since two year olds aren't capable of moral reasoning.

Removing non-human predators (either by extermination, putting them in captivity, or re-engineering their genomes to make them herbivorous) has been suggested, since there's no doubt that they inflict a great deal of sufferring. But it's nothing more than a philosophical problem at the moment, since it's clear that we are not currently capable of this, and even if we were, doing so would have untold consequences on the world's ecosystems, also causing a very great amount of suffering. The day may come however when we are capable of interfering in nature in such a way that really would greatly improve the quality of life for wild animals.

There is, however, definitely something morally troubling about feeding animal products to predators in captivity, particularly because such products come from factory farms.
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#17 Old 02-15-2015, 08:28 PM
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As far as we know... maybe they are just evil like the rest of us humans!
I'm sure they aren't evil!
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#18 Old 02-18-2015, 04:33 PM
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I feel just as badly for an animal killed by another animal as I do for an animal killed by a human, but I don't know what to do about it. I generally focus my efforts on behalf of animals to benefit herbivores. However, I have also adopted cats in need of homes, and although I made an effort to choose cats with a low "prey drive" and kept them inside, their food did include meat.

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#19 Old 02-19-2015, 02:11 AM
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I feel just as badly for an animal killed by another animal as I do for an animal killed by a human, but I don't know what to do about it. I generally focus my efforts on behalf of animals to benefit herbivores. However, I have also adopted cats in need of homes, and although I made an effort to choose cats with a low "prey drive" and kept them inside, their food did include meat.
I feel bad, but not 'as' bad.

Don't get me wrong, animals in the wild are vicious and cruel and can be incredibly jerks.

But, I dunno, I figure in the wild then it's down to nature and survival of the fittest. Humans aren't really part of that any more, so when we kill an animal....It's senseless. I'm not going to say all animals just kill for food because my cats wouldn't. My cats would happily kill practically anything they can could their claws into. Which is why they stay indoors.
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#20 Old 02-19-2015, 06:49 AM
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It is instinct based on survival needs so animals can hardly be called evil.
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#21 Old 02-19-2015, 09:03 AM
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Aren't most of these animals carnivores where they wouldn't survive without the meat?
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#22 Old 02-19-2015, 02:28 PM
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^^^Yes, but what would this matter to the animal being killed?

Peasant (1963-1972) and Fluffy (1970s?-1982- I think of you as 'Ambrose' now)- Your spirits outshone some humans I have known. Be happy forever.
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#23 Old 02-20-2015, 02:46 AM
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^^^Yes, but what would this matter to the animal being killed?
It doesn't.

However, the want to live for predator and prey is the same. Yes, there are animals who kill for the thrill of it, but the vast majority of animals do it because they need to survive.

The wolf values her life as much as the animals she hunts. She needs to live, so she kills.
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#24 Old 02-21-2015, 03:08 AM
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The wolf values her life as much as the animals she hunts. She needs to live, so she kills.
This is very well put...

And I agree that we humans have taken ourselves out of this sort of scenario and so the same rules don't apply to us. This fact in addition to our reasoning ability really means that there is no excuse for us to kill animals for food...
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#25 Old 03-07-2015, 07:01 PM
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This is very well put...



And I agree that we humans have taken ourselves out of this sort of scenario and so the same rules don't apply to us. This fact in addition to our reasoning ability really means that there is no excuse for us to kill animals for food...

Also,

1) Carnivores don't do factory farming, which is beyond cruel.
2) They possibly don't have the reasoning capacity to know right from wrong. We do. Lions kill their young, we don't!
3) Carnivores would die without meat, we wouldn't
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