Does Killing Animals Lead To Killing Humans? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 06-13-2013, 03:12 AM
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Does it contribute to acts of criminal violence, and even to warfare? (Since people are animals too, I thought it would be okay to put this in the Animal Rights and Welfare Forum.)

 

Most acts of criminal violence are attributed to one cause or another- greed, lust, jealousy, mental illness, etc.- but does the killing and imbibing of animals affect the way we handle our problems and treat each other, both psychologically and physically? Does a disrespect for animals spill over, and become a disrespect for ourselves and others? Does ingesting too much protein, or too much adrenaline from a dying animal effect us physically and overcome a person's ability to control himself? I've heard that animals, just before they are killed, release much adrenaline into their bodies, and I've seen moving images of animals fighting passionately in an attempt to escape their being slaughtered.

 

By killing animals, is a pattern of destruction established that becomes uncontrollable?

 

I know we talk about rights, health and even environmental effects a lot, but I've not heard this discussed much.

 

Any thoughts about this?


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#2 Old 06-13-2013, 04:39 AM
 
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Well, Hitler was vegetarian, so...

 

I personally don't believe that there's such a thing as negative energy that passes into our bodies when we consume meat, but I don't claim to know that this isn't the case. Rather, I think it's psychological. I think that all children who eat meat, at some point in their lives, necessarily experience a disconnect that makes them less caring individuals. Or rather, a disconnect is forced on them. It's possible to use products without ever being aware of the environmental consequences or the working conditions in which they are made. However, the cruelty of eating meat is as intuitive as it can be. You know they are animals that were once alive, you know that they are animals that had to die to reach your plate, and you know that dying is terrifying. If we can look at meat without thinking about the animals they came from, you can stare death in the eye and feel nothing. It's the foundation of - for the lack of a better word - a psychopathic tendency.

 

Nonetheless, I won't say that veg*ns are less cruel towards other humans overall. I think that being veg*n goes both ways. On one hand, it can cause you to harbour an intense hatred for humans. I've heard of my fair share of animal rights advocates who believe that humans deserve to be punished for what they do to animals, Gary Yourofsky included. I used to be quite passionate about equality and human rights, and I always made it a point to donate my spare change to poorer people, but I stopped doing it after I became vegetarian, and I realised that they most probably use the money to buy meat. I really don't know how I feel about this, or what's the 'right' thing to do.

 

On the other hand, being veg*n equips you with a certain set of skills to resist indoctrination. The only reason why corporate spin can be so wildly successful is because it tells people what they WANT to hear, and many people are only too happy to believe it. I've written a huge post on this elsewhere in the forum.

 

Unfortunately, abstaining from products that condone or contribute to human suffering is probably far more difficult than being vegan. Most industrial farms for vegetables have horrible track records. You'd pretty much have to abandon anything made of metal because, well, good luck finding a ethical mining facility. Many shoes and clothing still come from underage, underpaid, overworked sweatshops. I'm sure that for many veg*ns, the disconnect between the products we use and the people that suffered to make them happen is still there. I know it's cruel, but I can't bear to bring myself to stop using my phone or my laptop.

 

Regardless, it's easy for the disconnect towards meat to manifest in very gruesome ways. Huge companies think they can do whatever they want as long as they can get away to it, with severe consequences to humans, animals and the environment. Meat promotes a kind of hedonism where you need to believe in its extreme pleasure to feel it can justify the cruelty, and I can easily see this spilling into other aspects of one's life. There's a difference between the people who try their best to avoid thinking about the cruelty of meat (and get seriously awkward when you question them), and the ones who are so desensitised that they can stare at horror videos of animal factories and feel nothing at all. The latter group is more common than I would like it to be. These are the people I'm really afraid of.


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#3 Old 06-13-2013, 07:01 AM
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Well, Hitler was vegetarian, so...

 

He wasn't, actually. He did avoid meat sometimes for two reasons - 1) he developed an aversion to the sight of blood after a relative's death and 2) he wasn't a healthy man, and his gastric problems were exacerbated by meat (and rich pastry).

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#4 Old 02-15-2015, 10:06 AM
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I think actually the slaughtering of animals en masse via designated facilities has probably contributed to a lowering of violence and desire for it in Western cultures.

My reasoning behind this is that most people don't hunt their own food so they have little concept or knowledge in what's required to harm/kill something effectively and the emotions/mindsets/planning that goes with it.

If you meet hunters, self-reliant people they tend to be very independent and capable, they could enact their own revenge on someone if they desired in a way that soccer-mom Stacey with her 3 for $10 steaks couldn't.

It is however purely conjecture on my part, I have no evidence to back this feeling or reasoning up-with.

Conversely I imagine slaughter house workers may be severely damaged people emotionally/mentally, but once again I have no evidence of this to cite.

Having said this if I have the choice between the independent and self-sufficient hunter and the deluded/hypocritical consumer, I'll take the hunter every day as he has reality about him. To me there is little more dangerous than people who don't realize just how nonsensical and warped they are mentally and in turn the actions/decisions they make throughout life.
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#5 Old 02-15-2015, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by RiggerBoots View Post
I think actually the slaughtering of animals en masse via designated facilities has probably contributed to a lowering of violence and desire for it in Western cultures.

My reasoning behind this is that most people don't hunt their own food so they have little concept or knowledge in what's required to harm/kill something effectively and the emotions/mindsets/planning that goes with it.

If you meet hunters, self-reliant people they tend to be very independent and capable, they could enact their own revenge on someone if they desired in a way that soccer-mom Stacey with her 3 for $10 steaks couldn't.

It is however purely conjecture on my part, I have no evidence to back this feeling or reasoning up-with.

Conversely I imagine slaughter house workers may be severely damaged people emotionally/mentally, but once again I have no evidence of this to cite.

Having said this if I have the choice between the independent and self-sufficient hunter and the deluded/hypocritical consumer, I'll take the hunter every day as he has reality about him. To me there is little more dangerous than people who don't realize just how nonsensical and warped they are mentally and in turn the actions/decisions they make throughout life.
However, there are plenty of hunters who hunt for sport and thrill, not for survival. In fact the majority of hunters I am aware of (fishermen, deer hunters, fox etc) tend to brag about their "catch", hang stuffed heads and bodies of deer and fish on their walls, and tell stories about the chase. And they STILL buy packaged chicken and steak at the grocery store. I know very few people if any who only eat what they personally grow and catch.

My husband's parents are not violent people to other humans. They don't swear, they volunteer time to help the poor, they give to charities and live quiet lives. They are somewhat humble. But...they also have little regard for animals, do not even like it when we bring our dog in their house, and they are heavy meat and dairy eaters and hunters/dairy farmers. Even the girls in my husband's family are taught to hunt deer.

Sometimes however they are a bit racist in some of their remarks and it disturbs me and I have confronted a few of them about it. Even my husband finds it disturbing. They are particularly homophobic and make horrible comments about that, but would not harass a gay person to their face.
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#6 Old 02-15-2015, 11:37 AM
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However, there are plenty of hunters who hunt for sport and thrill, not for survival. In fact the majority of hunters I am aware of (fishermen, deer hunters, fox etc) tend to brag about their "catch", hang stuffed heads and bodies of deer and fish on their walls, and tell stories about the chase. And they STILL buy packaged chicken and steak at the grocery store. I know very few people if any who only eat what they personally grow and catch.

My husband's parents are not violent people to other humans. They don't swear, they volunteer time to help the poor, they give to charities and live quiet lives. They are somewhat humble. But...they also have little regard for animals, do not even like it when we bring our dog in their house, and they are heavy meat and dairy eaters and hunters/dairy farmers. Even the girls in my husband's family are taught to hunt deer.

Sometimes however they are a bit racist in some of their remarks and it disturbs me and I have confronted a few of them about it. Even my husband finds it disturbing. They are particularly homophobic and make horrible comments about that, but would not harass a gay person to their face.
I'd agree there is a flip-side to hunters within Western society, but I'm sure you'll appreciate I was not referring to them when making my points, that said the element you've highlight is a very real and very large group.

I think with regards to your husbands parents they are the result of the societal norms/conditioning of the period. It's possibly beyond them and perhaps unfair of anyone to expect them to do a 180 on so many views however you highlight that they wouldn't harass a gay person to their face while expressing anti-gay views at home, I find that actually quite encouraging while I'm sure many activists etc would cry for days about it. To me real homophobia or racism is not words or views but the intent and action backing them up. I regularly use racial remarks and homophobic remarks AND sexist remarks etc etc, while it would possibly make a black lesbian tar and feather me as another to ethnically cleanse from the gene-pool the reality of my character is this, I wouldn't discriminate against anyone in such a regard. So many people seem determined to attack someone with ill-reason because of some "offensive" terminology in conversation which to me is next to pointless, why not harass a real racist, a real homophobe, a real sexist - Is it because said "offended" know they wouldn't get anywhere not the attention they crave? Ben Kingsley the actor was asked a question about his role as Ghandi on the Jonathan Ross show, when he did his Ghandi voice (indian accent) he was immediately met with gasps or horror from the audience in the belief that he was being racist, this is what western culture is becoming - a mockery of real issues due to the need to be offended by some. I think you'll understand what I mean but my post is so long I'll avoid elaborating further. Essentially to bring it back to your husbands parents - compliment them when they don't react badly to something they appear bigoted about in private. Further to that, when you hear a remark that is nonsense, challenge it but not in a confrontational way, instead say "Do you really believe that?", then point out the fallacy of their position but in a joking sense rather than as a condescending attack. An example could be "Bloody poofs will be the death of this country",....."Quite the reverse MI5 is notorious for being full of poofs because they'll go the etc mile to save this country when information can't be gotten to any other way!", OR you could say "You realise Turing saved this country during the war and tremendously helped our allies yet his reward was to be chemically castrated, labeled a crimanl and pervert and was driven to suicide?.....all the while we have killers walking the streets like they own the place, give me a poof of solid British character over a gun wielding gangsta any day!". Reinforce the message over time by repeating the process with different examples. Just a suggestion.
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#7 Old 02-15-2015, 11:16 PM
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Hitler was not vegetarian...

I agree that the killing of animals leads to the killing of humans.

People who directly kill or torture animals can go on to being serial killers. And it's deeper than that I think. Children are taught from an early age that it is ok to kill x, y and z. I think that violence and war stem from this. Speciesism is at the root of evil.
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#8 Old 02-17-2015, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Go Vegan View Post
Hitler was not vegetarian...



I agree that the killing of animals leads to the killing of humans.



People who directly kill or torture animals can go on to being serial killers. And it's deeper than that I think. Children are taught from an early age that it is ok to kill x, y and z. I think that violence and war stem from this. Speciesism is at the root of evil.
I don't know about the accuracy of this but
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf..._vegetarianism
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#9 Old 02-18-2015, 06:53 AM
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I read the link r.w - it seems to suggest that Hitler may have been veggie in later life, though there seems to be some debate as to his motivation...

It does suggest that ARs were actually taken more seriously by the Nazi party which seems bizarre, but may reflect a desire to appear closer to nature and the natural order...
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