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#31 Old 03-17-2009, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Tofu-N-Sprouts View Post

While that's a nice sentiment, as Danakscully mentioned, some people have no other option at some points in their life. I would do whatever was necessary to support my family.

And while I'm all about saving chickens from a cruel battery cage or never using dairy products in my home, I would still make compassion towards my fellow man a priority (yes, I realize some may not agree) but I'd give money to a starving family so they could eat, no questions asked - regardless of what sort of food they bought with it.

I give donations to area food banks and United Way. I am sure they're not spending my dollars on tofu.













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Originally Posted by Xina View Post

Well said. I tend to donate a lot as well and never thought of what they were spending the money on, as long as it was helping them.



My brother just came to stay with me. He's Omni and he's also an alcoholic who hit rock bottom and needs help. I'm not about to refuse he come stay with me because I know he's going to get meat on his tacos at taco bell, though it does bother me to have meat in the fridge.



When we go shopping he buys his own frozen dinners with meat, though if I cook he'll eat veggie no problem. Eventually I'll try to talk him into going veggie because he was pescetarian before and always said he'd do it again if we lived together, but right now I just think it's too much to ask. I'd like to get him off the booze first.









These are both good examples of the real-life complex and somewhat compromised situations that most veg*ns find themselves in during their relationships with omni's that need to be discussed more often on VB in a forum of 'support' not the politically-driven, idealistic ramblings of activists who have become estranged from the real world.



.
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#32 Old 03-17-2009, 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted by sybaritik View Post

These are both good examples of the real-life complex and somewhat compromised situations that most veg*ns find themselves in during their relationships with omni's that need to be discussed more often on VB in a forum of 'support' not the politically-driven, idealistic ramblings of activists who have become estranged from the real world.



Since when did not wanting to participate in the slaughter of innocent animals become a political, idealistic exercise resulting in that person's estrangement from the real world?



Its the animals that need our support, not guilt-driven people compromising their beliefs.
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#33 Old 03-17-2009, 05:41 AM
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I don't buy meat or animal products for friends or family. Except kids. I had to make a deal with my omni sister-in-law that I wouldn't force my beliefs down her kids throats. So I don't. My neices and nephews are not allowed to bring meat into my house but when I take them out to eat they can order whatever they want (including meat) and I'll pay for it. However, this will change when they turn 18 when I'll only pay for vegetarian meals at restaurants.



When they're over at my house I cook fake meat stuff for them and serve soya ice cream. No complaints!



The funny thing is my teenage nephew is now asking about vegetarian food being served at his mums house!
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#34 Old 03-17-2009, 05:44 AM
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Ah another veg*n p*ssing contest!



I'm more veg*n than YOU are!

\\





No way! I'm 10x more veg*n than you are!

\\





If you aren't 100% exactly like me then you are no better than a vivisector! How can you sleep at night, murderer?

\\

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#35 Old 03-17-2009, 08:11 AM
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That is a really good question. I would prefer not to buy them meat. I, so far, don't. If somebody in my house wants meat, then they do the groceries. And, when it is my night to cook, we eat Vegan dishes.
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#36 Old 03-17-2009, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by MrFalafel View Post

Ah another veg*n p*ssing contest!



I'm more veg*n than YOU are!

\\





No way! I'm 10x more veg*n than you are!

\\





If you aren't 100% exactly like me then you are no better than a vivisector! How can you sleep at night, murderer?

\\






It's always the way.
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#37 Old 03-17-2009, 10:19 AM
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I buy meat items for my daughter and my wife to eat.



I think Vegetarianism is a personal choice, one that I have no right to make for other people. if they want to try vegetarian, I'll help them do so. but I will not banish meat from my house just because I don't eat it, and purposely cause my family discomfort because of it.



I will educate my daughter on the differences and reasons for vegetarianism when she is old enough to truly comprehend, and then when she is old enough to make up her own mind about it,she can decide for herself.
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#38 Old 03-17-2009, 11:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Licence View Post

Since when did not wanting to participate in the slaughter of innocent animals become a political, idealistic exercise resulting in that person's estrangement from the real world?





I'm not saying the idea of not wanting to participate in the slaughter of innocent animals is wrong because it is political or idealistic, or that identifying with that goal makes a person estranged from the real world. (although arguably that can happen).



I'm talking about people who already appear to be estranged from the real world and from that perspective in life are then making resentful and sarcastic comments to other veg*ns about how they practice their veg*nism in relation to their partners and families.



What they have to say is just idealistic rhetoric that shows that they don't have the life experience to understand that you can't drag AR politics into every situation involving family life....it's not practical....compromise is always involved.



If anyone thinks that you can do that, they've obviously been living some kind of isolationist lifestyle.





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Originally Posted by Licence View Post

Its the animals that need our support, not guilt-driven people compromising their beliefs.





Who are you calling guilt-driven?



.
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#39 Old 03-17-2009, 11:37 AM
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Because for me to try and force my beliefs on them, or to denigrate them for making the choices they make, would make me just as morally bankrupt as the guy in the factory killing the cows.

Wow, to think I almost missed this absolute gem of a post. I need to dig up the "VB treasure chest" thread, 'cos there's a winner right here!

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#40 Old 03-17-2009, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Licence View Post


Its the animals that need our support, not guilt-driven people compromising their beliefs.



my apologies for not forcing everyone I know and care about to make the same choices in their lives that I do in mine.



heaven forbid they have the right to choose for themselves.
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#41 Old 03-17-2009, 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

Oh damn. When did refusing to participate in one of the most massively inhumane industries ever known to humankind (even if your kids really really enjoy eating meat) become as morally bankrupt as killing an innocent creature?



I'm wondering, have you seen Meet Your Meat or Earthling's or that HBO special on the pig farm or anything lately? No offense, but it honestly doesn't seem like what's happening to animals could be very real to you. It's like an intellectual idea.



Obviously you missed what I said. It's not my being vegetarian that would make me such, but shoving it down their throats would.



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Originally Posted by SomebodyElse View Post

Yeah its a puzzler. So many posters reel with horror at the idea of forcing their vegetarian beliefs onto their children, but have no qualms about forcing their beliefs about lying, cheating, stealing, assault, etc. on them. I should hardly think that parents forcing their children to be against theft are as morally bankrupt as thieves.



I suppose the difference is that there is an underlying assumption that humans are entitled to do whatever they please to those who cannot fight back, and while society has succeeded in convincing people who like to steal that they are most certainly not entitled to take whatever they want from human animals, its still not only acceptable to do this to non human animals - by stealing their freedom and their very lives from them - its actually as viable and worthy of respect as choosing not to, and that people who choose not to steal the lives of other animals are actually sacrificing their inalienable right to do so. Its mind boggling to say the least.



You do realize that all of what you said is based on your opinion and your beliefs right? And that not all people share those same beliefs? Such as, to me, it is mind boggling that you could ever possibly have the opinion that there is not a hierarchy to life on this planet, and humanity is higher on it than other animals.
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#42 Old 03-17-2009, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Eikon View Post

Obviously you missed what I said. It's not my being vegetarian that would make me such, but shoving it down their throats would.

You don't seem to understand that the reason why someone might not want to buy meat is that they don't want to, to use Irizary's expression, "participate in one of the most massively inhumane industries ever known to humankind". I don't think anyone claimed that you object to someone merely being vegetarian



Quote:
And that not all people share those same beliefs? Such as, to me, it is mind boggling that you could ever possibly have the opinion that there is not a hierarchy to life on this planet, and humanity is higher on it than other animals.

What you believe in is not merely the social construct of a "hierarchy of life", but an extreme hierarchy, where the moral status of a non-human is so low that the animal's interests in life and avoiding excruciating pain weigh as much as some human's desire to buy meat (or have meat bought). Such a tragic viewpoint.

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#43 Old 03-17-2009, 12:10 PM
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why do I get the distinct feeling that some folks here wouldn't flinch if a human got shot in the face right in front of them, but would fly off into a rage if a dog ran across the street and got hit by a car?



that's an exaggeration, yes. but it conveys the general vibe I am getting from this thread.
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#44 Old 03-17-2009, 12:14 PM
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why do I get the distinct feeling that some folks here wouldn't flinch if a human got shot in the face right in front of them, but would fly off into a rage if a dog ran across the street and got hit by a car?

I'm not sure. Because you think if someone doesn't buy meat for someone else, then that's equal to not flinching if that someone else gets shot in the face? Beyond that, I'm out of ideas.

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#45 Old 03-17-2009, 12:20 PM
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and I would just like to say that there is a difference between "educating" and "forcing down your throat".



What I WILL do, is explain to my wife and daughter why I chose to stop eating meat, the benefits of it, and the drawbacks and pitfalls of the Meat Industry. and then I will let them choose how they wish to proceed.



what I WON'T do, is say "you can't eat meat anymore because I said so." and banish all meat from my house. I don't have that authority in any legal, moral, or religious sense. I can't force my wife to do anything she does not want to, and I won't. so you can call me whatever you like, and that won't change. she's not my employee, I am not her boss. whether my wife eats meat or not, is NOT my decision. nor is it any of yours.



my daughter is 5. you can yell at her about animal rights until you are blue in the face, and the only thing she'll hear is "mcdonald's chicken nugget happy meal with a toy." I will wait until she is old enough to actually grasp exactly what I am talking about before trying to educate her on such things. I don't want her seeing cows being mutilated at age 5, sorry. no "Meet Your Meat" video for her. and when I do educate her on this, I will let her choose for herself whether she wants to continue eating meat or not.



the only thing I can do is make my case. I can't and won't force them to stop eating meat. If that makes me less of a vegetarian than you, then fine. I buy my own food to eat. and I buy their food as well.



Vegetarianism, like Religion and Career, is a PERSONAL choice. and nobody has the right to decide it for you. Not anyone who posts on this board, not PETA, not anyone.



I made the Personal Choice to become Vegetarian. It was my decision, based on my research. I was not forced into it by anyone, and I will not force anyone into it.



and not buying meat for your family because you decided to go vegetarian is equal to forcing your family to adopt your personal choice.



of course, I'm a new vegetarian, so my opinion on this doesn't really mean much. I just took a little offense to the "guilt ridden compromising your beliefs" crap.
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#46 Old 03-17-2009, 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by sybaritik View Post

I'm talking about people who already appear to be estranged from the real world and from that perspective in life are then making resentful and sarcastic comments to other veg*ns about how they practice their veg*nism in relation to their partners and families.



What they have to say is just idealistic rhetoric that shows that they don't have the life experience to understand that you can't drag AR politics into every situation involving family life....it's not practical....compromise is always involved.



I don't know exactly who or what you're talking about. Your posts are passive-aggressive and so vague as to just be nasty snipes at this point (which I think you've been warned about). But I'll answer you directly, since I think you were referring to my earlier post.



I was referring, in the post before yours, not to the simple fact of feeding kids meat, but to the statement that making the choice not to do so for them would "just as morally bankrupt" as directly killing the animals in a slaughterhouse, which is a perspective that I find rather shocking and interesting that some people seem to be defending. But o.k. You share that view then?



Quote:
...I will cook for my kids whats asked. Because for me to try and force my beliefs on them, or to denigrate them for making the choices they make, would make me just as morally bankrupt as the guy in the factory killing the cows.


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#47 Old 03-17-2009, 12:24 PM
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Beyond that, I'm out of ideas.

No wait, I think I got it. You get the vibe, because it's usually the case that whenever anyone makes any comment about the ethics of animal cruelty, that statement is dismissed by appealing to the stereotype of a misanthropic AR wacko. There seem to be mainly two choices: 1. accept that animals are really nothing more than milk machines or pieces of meat, or 2. value animals above humans.

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#48 Old 03-17-2009, 12:28 PM
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I thought this was a vegetarian discussion board. Is it only for vegans?



My understanding is that discussion boards are supposed to be about exchanging ideas and sometimes passionately, but always civilly, discussing the reasonings behind, and implications and consequences of those ideas. I'm disappointed. I guess I'm not going to get that here.



So really this isn't a discussion board for all vegetarians then. Interesting.
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#49 Old 03-17-2009, 12:29 PM
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the only thing I can do is make my case. I can't and won't force them to stop eating meat. If that makes me less of a vegetarian than you, then fine. I buy my own food to eat. and I buy their food as well.



Vegetarianism, like Religion and Career, is a PERSONAL choice. and nobody has the right to decide it for you. Not anyone who posts on this board, not PETA, not anyone.



I made the Personal Choice to become Vegetarian. It was my decision, based on my research. I was not forced into it by anyone, and I will not force anyone into it.



and not buying meat for your family because you decided to go vegetarian is equal to forcing your family to adopt your personal choice.

Grrr... pray tell, what principled difference is there between making a "personal choice" not to abuse a dog, and a "personal choice" not to participate in a system that abuses multitudes of animals almost solely for a dietary preference, not a dietary requirement, of humans? If a family is inconvenienced by vegetarian meals, though also made aware that they can be nutritious, how is their resistance to change more important than the very lives and welfare of farm animals?



You are right to point out the complexities of knowing the best way to advocate to family members, and that young children will not really grasp all the reasons why you made your choice for veg*nism. But I think it greatly cheapens the animals when we frame the decision to boycott animal farms as a personal choice. It's no more my personal choice to refrain from beating a dog on a whim than it is for me to refuse to support factory farms.
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#50 Old 03-17-2009, 12:36 PM
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I thought this was a vegetarian discussion board. Is it only for vegans?



Who's talking about veganism? The discussion is about meat.

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#51 Old 03-17-2009, 12:40 PM
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why do I get the distinct feeling that some folks here wouldn't flinch if a human got shot in the face right in front of them, but would fly off into a rage if a dog ran across the street and got hit by a car?



that's an exaggeration, yes. but it conveys the general vibe I am getting from this thread.

It is an exaggeration, and a tired one at that. Way to perpetuate the misanthropic veg*n stereotype. Do you think it's even possible for someone to abhor all suffering, whether human or non-human? Or do you think that, of necessity, a person must either care about humans or non-humans? How could the same intensity of suffering deserve more consideration depending on species membership? States of pleasure, pain obviously matter greatly to the one who feels them, human or non-human.
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#52 Old 03-17-2009, 12:43 PM
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I thought this was a vegetarian discussion board. Is it only for vegans?



My understanding is that discussion boards are supposed to be about exchanging ideas and sometimes passionately, but always civilly, discussing the reasonings behind, and implications and consequences of those ideas. I'm disappointed. I guess I'm not going to get that here.



So really this isn't a discussion board for all vegetarians then. Interesting.

You might be surprised to know that there are many lacto-ovo-vegetarians who have ethical qualms with buying meat for someone else. What this has to do with vegans vs. vegetarians, I don't know.

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#53 Old 03-17-2009, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Irizary View Post

Who's talking about veganism? The discussion is about meat.



Wow. This thread is pretty hostile. That's too bad. I was simply asking a question, not trying to create some sort of conflict.



I'm new to the board and trying to get a feel for the culture. It says in the rules that this is a discussion board for vegetarians. That would include the lacto-ovo type. Several individuals here have made it clear that they feel that any consumption of animal products is tantamount to eating meat. While I completely respect that opinion, I happen to disagree. I guess I just don't get why both opinions can't exist peacefully. I just want to know if there are vegetarians who are not vegans whose voices are respected here, that's all. If not, no problem - I can certainly find community elsewhere.
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#54 Old 03-17-2009, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

You might be surprised to know that there are many lacto-ovo-vegetarians who have ethical qualms with buying meat for someone else. What this has to do with vegans vs. vegetarians, I don't know.



No, Sevenseas, I'm not surprised at all, as I already knew that.



Please don't be passive-aggressive towards me. I was honestly asking sincere questions, not trying to start an argument. It's unfortunate you interpreted otherwise.
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#55 Old 03-17-2009, 01:05 PM
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Please don't be passive-aggressive towards me. I was honestly asking sincere questions, not trying to start an argument. It's unfortunate you interpreted otherwise.

Fair enough. A honest answer to your question: I don't think this thread is attacking lacto-ovo-vegetarianism. It's about buying meat to other people. It's not about the ethics of eating dairy or eggs.



This subforum is a support forum for vegetarians. You should feel safe as a lacto-ovo-vegetarian on this subforum. If you find posts that you think are attacking lacto-ovo-vegetarianism directly, you can report those posts.

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#56 Old 03-17-2009, 01:07 PM
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It says in the rules that this is a discussion board for vegetarians. That would include the lacto-ovo type...



I think you're in the wrong thread. Who in this thread is talking about dairy and eggs?

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#57 Old 03-17-2009, 01:08 PM
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Wow. This thread is pretty hostile. That's too bad. I was simply asking a question, not trying to create some sort of conflict.

Conflict comes in when some feel it's quite monstrous so suggest that family harmony should usually (?) take precedence over caring for animals who have little enough hope already. I think what's outrageous is some people's lack of proportion when it comes to harms.



Nor does a passionate vegan necessarily live an isolated life, to address sybarik's earlier posts. If family members aren't able to at least respect that any given issue could be very important to another family member, without sharing that position, I have to wonder who is really in need of more social manners. It's not going to greatly interfere with the welfare of an omni family member to compromise and eat vegetarian meals, at least once in a while. It seems to me that, even if an omni family member doesn't agree with vegetarianism, yet is aware that it's ethically important to another, the omni could consider compromising by eating veg*n meals because he/she knows how much it means to the veg*n. One can still view someone's ethical position, even if one doesn't agree with it, as deserving more respect than culinary pleasure.
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#58 Old 03-17-2009, 01:18 PM
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i don't want meat cooked in my house but on occasion i buy meat when i'm out at restaurants. i'll pick up the check at a restaurant and some people will have eaten meat. it happens. especially, if i'm treating someone out to a birthday dinner. its tradition in my group of friends that if its someones birthday, they don't pay for food or drinks. if its a big group, everyone will throw down some extra money for the birthday person's meal. what am i gonna say 'no, i don't care that its his/her birthday, i won't pay for it because it was meat'. at that point, the meat was already ordered, i'm not contributing to the demand of meat. i also support my local soup kitchen.



i kinda see buying meat as a personal choice. i'm not going to go out and bring home a steak for my husband but if someone other vegetarian does that's their business.

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#59 Old 03-17-2009, 01:25 PM
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(Nor does a passionate vegan necessarily live an isolated life, to address sybarik's earlier posts.





Stop misquoting me.



I said nothing about passionate vegans living isolated lives. Being passionate has nothing to do with it.



I said veg*ns (note both types there) who make sarcastic comments towards other veg*ns regarding their veg*nism and how they practice that in their family life are obviously living lives of isolation because they just don't get why people with families and partners have to make the compromises that they do.



.
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#60 Old 03-17-2009, 01:25 PM
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I think you're in the wrong thread. Who in this thread is talking about dairy and eggs?



You're absolutely right, Irizary in that veg/vegan is not the main focus of this thread. But in discussing the subject of buying meat, I just noticed the overwhelming amount of vegan posts, and how hostile some of them were. It definitely comes across as unwelcoming, that's all. It was just an observation.
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