The bean of death? Excuse me?? - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 01-16-2009, 06:32 PM
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Ok so I have heard ALOT of soy controversy lately. I'm very surprised. I had no idea there were so many studies going on. The latest thing I've heard is that soy contains isoflavones which is plant estrogen. Someone wrote that while soy can prevent cancer, it can also make it worse (especially breast cancer). Another article I read was called "Soy: Miracle Food or Bean of Death?" I was shocked to find how many people are saying to NOT make this a cornerstone in your diet. Basically, the majority of these doctors and researchers were saying things that definitely goes against what we have previously thought.



So I'm wondering, do you guys think there is any truth to this? What do you think the vegan and vegetarian community should do?
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#2 Old 01-16-2009, 09:28 PM
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there's millions of research going on by many different groups.

That's the problem right there.

We don't know how a lot of these research projects are conducted. What heuristics do they use? What environment? For that matter, which body conducts it. If you ask me, a lot are conducted very vaguely.



As for Soy, it's said to increase estrogen levels but I am yet to see a proper study done on how much it increases estrogen.
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#3 Old 01-16-2009, 11:08 PM
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The isoflavones are nowhere near as effective as human oestrogen, but soy foods are recommended to menopausal women to help with hormone craziness

I know of one study that concluded that tofu increases the risk of dementia in men. They didn't point out that the study was conducted in Indonesia where formaldehyde is used to preserve tofu, so that probably had a lot to do with the result.

But.. if soy gives you cancer/reduces sperm count/makes men gay or any of the other stupid claims, then China would have a much smaller population what with all the tofu and soy sauce and stuff
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#4 Old 01-17-2009, 12:05 AM
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The fact that unfermented soy (this does not include tofu) contains a chemical that mimics estrogen and can be potentially dangerous is a concern of mine. From what I've seen of the literature, there seems to be legitimate reason to be wary.



Of course everyone must make these judgements for themselves. I just stick to almond milk and use soy milk sparingly.
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#5 Old 01-17-2009, 12:10 AM
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It might also be an individual thing as well.



I asked my doctor before starting the bc pill if, since I drink soymilk (that's my main soy food, I really haven't got the hang of tofu or tempeh yet), if it would have any affect on the reliability of my pill. And she said no, because she also has soy in her diet.



So...yeah.
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#6 Old 01-17-2009, 01:03 PM
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I have a hard time believing anything the press says. One night on the news I'll see that they say you need to eat apples, for example, and the next week they're saying to not eat it because it causes some rare disease. Vegetarians/Vegans in general are at lower risk for all the diseases omni's get. How could soy here and there make that any worse?



This may not be relevant, but I dislike it when meat eaters do research on vegetarianism/soy or anything. They think they know everything and try to say that vegetarians are unhealthy. It really upsets me.
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#7 Old 01-17-2009, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by cerise View Post

I have a hard time believing anything the press says. One night on the news I'll see that they say you need to eat apples, for example, and the next week they're saying to not eat it because it causes some rare disease.

To me, this is the reason why I have a hard time believing nutritional science generally, not just the press reports. The conclusions and findings are all over the place and overcome later on. Get your vitamins, eat dark green foods, not too much fat, and enjoy life, and that's the end of it, damnit.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#8 Old 01-17-2009, 04:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiveDreamLove View Post

Ok so I have heard ALOT of soy controversy lately. I'm very surprised. I had no idea there were so many studies going on. The latest thing I've heard is that soy contains isoflavones which is plant estrogen. Someone wrote that while soy can prevent cancer, it can also make it worse (especially breast cancer). Another article I read was called "Soy: Miracle Food or Bean of Death?" I was shocked to find how many people are saying to NOT make this a cornerstone in your diet. Basically, the majority of these doctors and researchers were saying things that definitely goes against what we have previously thought.



So I'm wondering, do you guys think there is any truth to this? What do you think the vegan and vegetarian community should do?



Go with what you can experience, and don't expect anything. That's advice for most things, not just beans.
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#9 Old 01-17-2009, 07:09 PM
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I have hypothyroidism so my endo advised me to try to steer clear of soy based products when I told him I was going to convert to vegetarian. It hasn't been that hard to eat a vegetarian diet and limit the soy thus far. So I don't think that anyone could use the arguement that soy may be harmful to some people in large amounts as a reason not to convert to vegetarianism.
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#10 Old 01-17-2009, 07:33 PM
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its just, i saw one study that was by someone with a PHd but then i remembered that a lot of doctors think you can only get your protein by eating meat
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#11 Old 01-18-2009, 07:43 AM
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Soy contains isoflavanoids, chemicals which mimic estrogen in the body. Since estrogen itself has many affects, and can either contribute to cancer or make it worse, it is no surprise that the same can be said of soy estrogenic compounds. It's not that the scientific research is flawed, it's that estrogen's effects depend on many different factors relating to positive and negative feedback systems involivng other hormones and the relative availability of estrogen receptors.



Sorry if I'm getting too scientific, but this was the subject of my Master's Thesis many years ago.

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#12 Old 01-18-2009, 12:36 PM
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[QUOTE=Zoe74]Soy contains isoflavanoids, chemicals which mimic estrogen in the body. Since estrogen itself has many affects, and can either contribute to cancer or make it worse, it is no surprise that the same can be said of soy estrogenic compounds. It's not that the scientific research is flawed, it's that estrogen's effects depend on many different factors relating to positive and negative feedback systems involivng other hormones and the relative availability of estrogen receptors.QUOTE]



so then...do you think people shouldn't eat soy or what?
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#13 Old 01-18-2009, 12:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Zoe74 View Post

Soy contains isoflavanoids, chemicals which mimic estrogen in the body. Since estrogen itself has many affects, and can either contribute to cancer or make it worse, it is no surprise that the same can be said of soy estrogenic compounds. It's not that the scientific research is flawed, it's that estrogen's effects depend on many different factors relating to positive and negative feedback systems involivng other hormones and the relative availability of estrogen receptors.



Sorry if I'm getting too scientific, but this was the subject of my Master's Thesis many years ago.



Yay, an expert



I'm glad you say that, because the research I've read (mostly having to do with soy and breast cancer) seemed compelling... at least compelling enough to limit my soy intake.



I have some questions, if you don't mind...



I thought it was just unfermented soy? Things like soy milk, etc, but that tofu was okay?
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#14 Old 01-18-2009, 02:07 PM
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It's really hard to say if one should eat soy or not because it's effects are dependent on so many factors. It is really a personal decision but I would say the only people who should stay away from it completely are those with a strong history of breast cancer. My master's research was on genistein, one of the estrogenic compounds. My research did show that it had a very slight negative effect on the reproductive system in the male mouse (yes it was animal research but this was 10 years ago before I became veg). But again that was an isolated compound that was being used at a very high concentration.



If you are worried about it, I would stick to the fermented products which do appear to be safer - miso, tempeh and soy sauce for example. Tofu is not fermented though. It is processed, coagulated soymilk (sounds lovely, I know). But again, the effects of tofu might be very positive for an individual. If you are eating tofu you should choose only the organic varieties as soy can be genetically modified and full of pesticides. Highly processed soy products like tvp, soy protein isolate are unhealthy for many reasons.

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#15 Old 01-18-2009, 04:09 PM
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As with all things, there is good soy and bad soy. Look for the least processing possible with any food. Deep-fried soy nuts= not good, cold water washed soy protein isolate=good.



Phytoestrogens in soy protein are 1/1000th the strength of regular estrogens.
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#16 Old 01-19-2009, 12:49 AM
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Thanks, you guys! Very helpful!
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#17 Old 02-07-2009, 06:00 AM
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I think a lot of the soy controvercy is totally over the top, I don't think that the phytoestrogens have anywhere near as much effect as the full blown hormone. And I would have thought that all the hormones that are in most animal products would be much worse. Not to mention, I'm pretty certain that I've heard yams contain estrogen, I know my mom used to use some estrogen product made from yams -no idea if she still does- and yet no one seems to be going around and saying not to eat yams. That said I have heard that non fermented/clutured soy does have something in it that makes it so that the nutrients aren't well absorbed as from other sources, and I have been trying to replace some of my soy intake with hemp,
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#18 Old 02-07-2009, 12:40 PM
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I never really believe anything honestly because one day its one thing one day its another and I just figure its all bad...LOL...so if I dont over-do it I will be okay.
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#19 Old 02-07-2009, 02:02 PM
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Guliable! Don't drink water it leads to drowning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't eat anytihng it leads to choking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't use any electric products you die from high voltage! lol I can go on and on.
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#20 Old 02-08-2009, 12:01 AM
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^Best. Reply. Ever!

Did you write the book of love, and do you have faith in God above,
If the Bible tells you so? Do you believe in rock Ân roll,
Can music save your mortal soul, And can you teach me how to dance real slow?
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#21 Old 02-08-2009, 10:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenseas View Post

To me, this is the reason why I have a hard time believing nutritional science generally, not just the press reports. The conclusions and findings are all over the place and overcome later on. Get your vitamins, eat dark green foods, not too much fat, and enjoy life, and that's the end of it, damnit.



Exactly.



Just eat a varied diet, keep everything in moderation, and you'll be fine.
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#22 Old 02-08-2009, 02:08 PM
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^Best. Reply. Ever!





^ Second best reply ever BEAT THAt!
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#23 Old 02-08-2009, 09:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Restricted Void View Post

Guliable! Don't drink water it leads to drowning!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't eat anytihng it leads to choking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Don't use any electric products you die from high voltage! lol I can go on and on.



Funny.



I think soy can't possibly be any worse for me than dairy milk. Cows eat pesticide laiden grain, are pumped full of hormones to increase milk production and many suffer from udder infections. Plus you have to wonder who is funding such research papers as "soy the bean of death". It's most likely the "super dairy and meat co".



I haven't got a masters or completed a thesis on the topic, but I'd prefer to take my chances with soy.
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