A conversation with meat-eating bodybuilders... - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 04-06-2008, 04:57 AM
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I think I deserve full marks for the patience and restraint shown in this thread!



http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=106611541
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#2 Old 04-07-2008, 06:12 PM
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Well...

I have been a vegetarian bodybuilder for 10 years, and intend to remain so for the rest of my life. However, I am convinced that my life as a bodybuilder would be much easier if I were an omni, as I am also convinced that I would be able to build more muscle if I ate meat. As I said, my belief that it is immoral to kill animals has been firm enough in all these years to make me abstain from meat, but I still believe that I'd be at a different bodybuilding level if I could eat meat.
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#3 Old 04-07-2008, 06:17 PM
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Well...

I have been a vegetarian bodybuilder for 10 years, and intend to remain so for the rest of my life. However, I am convinced that my life as a bodybuilder would be much easier if I were an omni, as I am also convinced that I would be able to build more muscle if I ate meat. As I said, my belief that it is immoral to kill animals has been firm enough in all these years to make me abstain from meat, but I still believe that I'd be at a different bodybuilding level if I could eat meat.



We really do need a sigh smiley...
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#4 Old 04-07-2008, 06:43 PM
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We really do need a sigh smiley...



You're right, but these work really well too.



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#5 Old 04-07-2008, 06:59 PM
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The worried one would have worked well but I was going for more resignation than concern. I suppose that is being a bit too picky though.



Licence, your responses were very well thought out and backed up.
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#6 Old 04-07-2008, 07:38 PM
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I got nothing against vegetarians, and I even have a few vegan friends, but the arguments ya'll come up with are something else. Why do you think it's acceptable to pluck an ear of corn off the stalk and eat it, but it's not okay to slaughter a cow and have a steak? How do you know the veggies don't feel it when you kill them? How do you know the cows do?



Animals aren't humans. There's a reason we're at the top of the food chain, and it's a much better place to be than the bottom. I'd suggest the animal kingdom should stage a revolt if they're not happy with the current situation.



The arguments we come up with are something else? Wow!!!



Amazing stupidity here. How frightening is it that people out there, and I've heard this sort of crap before, think corn and cows are equal?



And, it is also quite disturbing that people don't realize humans are animals. The animal kingdom staging a revolt, huh?



Oh the ignorant arrogance involved in this sort of thought...
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#7 Old 04-07-2008, 10:40 PM
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The arguments we come up with are something else? Wow!!!



Amazing stupidity here. How frightening is it that people out there, and I've heard this sort of crap before, think corn and cows are equal?



And, it is also quite disturbing that people don't realize humans are animals. The animal kingdom staging a revolt, huh?



Oh the ignorant arrogance involved in this sort of thought...



I liked corn/cow comparison as well. Makes your eyes kinda buldge out of your head and you go "WTF??" LoL
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#8 Old 04-08-2008, 05:19 AM
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The arguments we come up with are something else? Wow!!!



Amazing stupidity here. How frightening is it that people out there, and I've heard this sort of crap before, think corn and cows are equal?



And, it is also quite disturbing that people don't realize humans are animals. The animal kingdom staging a revolt, huh?



Oh the ignorant arrogance involved in this sort of thought...



these stupid augments are a result of systemetic abuse and brainwashing that has been going on for 1000s of years.
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#9 Old 04-08-2008, 08:26 AM
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"To feel pain, you need a brain and a nervous system, something corn doesn't have last time I looked. Any vertebrate animal ie. one with a backbone like you and me, will feel pain.



Kick a cat and it will recoil in pain. Try the same thing with a human and see if the result differs. That's called observational study. Actually don't take those last suggestions seriously, well not the cat one anyway!"



Hahahahaha, laughed my ass off with that part !!!



One question though, how would you guys answer to this? I know their arguments are a bit stupid, I'm asking because License didn't continue the debate.



"They actually did studies and it showed the stress in plants were elivated when a limb was cut off.... And dont be stupid, of course corn has a nervous system, how else would it function."



"you can eat all the meat you want as long as you cleanse from time to time. you have to clean the pipes to keep them flowing."
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#10 Old 04-08-2008, 05:47 PM
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One question though, how would you guys answer to this? I know their arguments are a bit stupid, I'm asking because License didn't continue the debate.



"They actually did studies and it showed the stress in plants were elivated when a limb was cut off.... And dont be stupid, of course corn has a nervous system, how else would it function."



"you can eat all the meat you want as long as you cleanse from time to time. you have to clean the pipes to keep them flowing."



I'd ask for evidence that plants feel stress. And also note that they have no form of nervous system whatsoever. They have a little bit of hormones to tell them when to flower, ripen, grow, etc, but do not have neurons or the chemicals we associate with sensation (dopamine, etc).



The idea of cleansing... I don't really see where they're getting from. Perhaps the digestive problems of a meat-centric diet can be slightly reduced by some kind of "cleansing", an idea I find suspect. Even so, the negative health effects are still great, though.
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#11 Old 04-10-2008, 02:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Licence View Post

I think I deserve full marks for the patience and restraint shown in this thread!



http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hp?t=106611541



I have bookmarked the link and will read through it later though, in all honestly, what did you expect from posting on bodybuilding.com? Logic isn't something that is in abundance over yonder and you aren't going to change the minds of that many 16-year old experts.
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#12 Old 04-10-2008, 02:31 AM
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Haha -- I read through it. Some really informed folks, they have!
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#13 Old 04-10-2008, 02:40 AM
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I had to read this comment a few times just to make sure I read it right.



dont be stupid, of course corn has a nervous system, how else would it function
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#14 Old 04-22-2008, 12:30 AM
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Some people just never get it.
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#15 Old 04-22-2008, 07:58 AM
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Don't be stupid, guys. Of course corn has a nervous system. How else would it function?
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#16 Old 04-23-2008, 06:08 AM
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If you pull off all of the ears in a cornfield will anyone hear them scream?
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#17 Old 04-23-2008, 08:15 AM
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Looks like some of them have had one protien shake too many.
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#18 Old 04-23-2008, 09:50 AM
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Plants do have enzyme systems that react to stimulii. More ancient plants (orchids, grasses) are more mobile than more modern ones trees, and can actually move and colonize. When a plant is damaged (fir instance when an apple is bitten into) within minutes the enzyme system reacts and the apple begins to produce chemicals which would eventually grow a "scab" if the hole is not too big, or the eater consumes them. (You can see this yourself, leave an apple with a small bite out and the bitten part will change colors. This is an enzyme action caused by "damage." It that apple was still on the tree it might heal. Many plants have the ability to self heal (trees do) and plants have many more abilities based on enzymes including reproduction (which gives us fruit). At no time in this does a plant feel pain. enzyme systems can, and do exist without/ independently of a central nervous system.



I think what people like this forget is that chemicals and also "organs" are the cause of feelings, and sensations. Creatures need certain physiological apparatus to experience different things. Some creature that does not have nerves will not feel anything. Nerves are easy to find and made of certain tissue, so if they had nerves, people would know about it by now. We know things like what a dog can taste or if certain animals are colorblind by their anatomy, not by asking them. certain animals actually do not feel as much as others based on their nerves.



We know also that animals like cows, pigs, horses, dogs etc do feel anxiety, fear, "love," because they have the brain chemistry and hormone producing organs needed to feel such emotions. So killing an animal is accompanied by anxiety, fear, probably frustration, and finally pain very much like human feelings.



Finally, those people have probably never had an original thought in their lives which was not planted by someone else and delivered by wrote, like a good little puppet.



I personally understand that you can get a larger muscle by eating protein from animals, it is true. 'although that may appeal aesthetically to some people, I know there is a large part of the population that those thick necked body builders seem bizarre. I prefer the more slender obviously ripped with low body fat sort of body. It seems to be more natural and also seems more healthy and youthful.
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#19 Old 04-23-2008, 10:38 AM
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Licence I think your replies in that thread were quite good. I just get struck speechless by comments like that and don't even know how to respond.



Now if you'll excuse me, I have some vegetables to slaughter inhumanely for my lunch.
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#20 Old 04-23-2008, 08:15 PM
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Don't be stupid, guys. Of course corn has a nervous system. How else would it function?



Oh great! I just had corn last night. Why didn't anybody tell me this before?

I have to return some videotapes
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#21 Old 04-23-2008, 08:41 PM
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Why didn't anybody tell me this before?



You shouldn't need to be told. How can you not feel the corn's pain? You're a monster.
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#22 Old 04-23-2008, 09:24 PM
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You shouldn't need to be told. How can you not feel the corn's pain? You're a monster.



I like torturing corn
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#23 Old 04-29-2008, 02:11 PM
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I suggest you quit that forum and join this one: http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/



Also, I like to make this comparison:



If I was in my front yard and I was swinging my golf club and was striking corn with it and it was being shredded apart how would you feel?



Then let them answer.



Then ask: If I was in my front yard and I was swinging my golf club and was striking a cat and it was being slowly shredded apart, how would you feel?



Then let them answer.



Their answers will lead them to the obvious conclusion about whether they think there's a difference between cats and corn in how they experience pain.
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#24 Old 05-05-2008, 02:03 PM
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Wow, I didn't think anyone had replied to my original post and I come back and there are 3 pages! I was wading through the "Nice things Omnivores say" thread, which took me about 3 weeks of lunchtimes!



Thanks a lot to those of you that said nice things about my replies. I'm just a new vegetarian anyway so don't know all the facts and figures yet. I gave up meat on 1 Jan 2008 but only became a complete vegetarian more recently.



As you can tell, I was beginning to lose my patience by the end, and gave up replying as their comments were getting trollish.



Tuscany, I disagree and think you've been reading too many meat-eating guides to fitness! Are your views based on the belief that without meat you aren't getting enough protein? I've read its actually quite difficult to suffer a protein deficiency unless you completely stop eating! A lot of unprocessed foods have high levels of protein. Whilst meat may contain all 9 essential amino acids, you can just as easily get them from fruit and veg. But who am I to lecture you, I've only just become a vegetarian and you've done it for 10 years, so well done!



Mr Sun - that's a great way of illustrating the point, will have to remember that one!
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#25 Old 05-05-2008, 02:59 PM
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I've read its actually quite difficult to suffer a protein deficiency unless you completely stop eating! A lot of unprocessed foods have high levels of protein. Whilst meat may contain all 9 essential amino acids, you can just as easily get them from fruit and veg. But who am I to lecture you, I've only just become a vegetarian and you've done it for 10 years, so well done!



You're right, protein deficiency in the modern world is extremely rare. So rare it isn't a concern. As long as you're eating a healthy, varied diet you're getting enough protein. It's a complete myth that only meat will give you the protein you need if you eat normally, and many people are willing to accept it; even a lot of vegetarians. I've heard of some taking protein supplements years into their vegetarianism!!



It's actually the case that, at least in the US, there are plenty of people getting far more protein than they need. And, you can actually get too much. Food for thought for those bodybuilders who happen to be so mindless as to just go "PROTEIN PROTEIN PROTEIN!!!!" at the expense of their health and other nutrition.
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#26 Old 05-05-2008, 08:31 PM
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It cannot be doubted that in average meat eaters consume more protein than vegetarians, let alone vegans. Body-builders (and I am talking about professional bodybuilders, or amateur bodybuilders who compete at a serious level) are a special category, and their nutrition can't be compared to the average person. It is perfectly possible to develop a good muscular mass on a vegetarian and even vegan diet, but if you want to compete for Mr. Olympia, I am sorry to say, a vegetarian diet won't help. Bodybuilders of that level normally take 2 grams of protein per pound (their body weight) a day. If you are 200 lbs (at no more than 10% body fat) it means you must have 400 grams of protein a day. Obviously for vegetarians it becomes a very difficult task. When I was competing, I had to drink at least 5 whey protein shakes a day, plus 10 egg whites a day and so on. Extremely difficult, repetitive and boring. But, as difficult as it was, I didn't pay attention to my trainers' advice to eat meat, because I was firm in my decision to remain a vegetarian. One of my trainers even refused to train me for a competition.
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