reasons to not eat fish- 1, 2 and 3 - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 09-20-2003, 05:13 PM
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A girl I know is trying to convinve me to eat fish. She says she has done a lot of research into and is convinced i should eat fish. As seen as she has been staying over a lot- its heard not to get into some sort of debate. I aren't as clued up on the whole thing as I should be. I dont agree with eating animals- so I dont. Been around vegatarianism since I was 3- have stopped thinking about it these days- i just feel it isn't normal to eat meat.



Her arguement basically goes on about how eskimos are very healthy and have a diet that contains a high percentage of fish- whereas people in countries who eat less fish are less healthy. I agree that fish contain a lot of goodness but feel that you can get all the goodness from fish- elsewhere.



So my argument is a bit feeble at- 1, you can get all the essential amino acids and such like from other food sources (then i give a list of veggie foods and mention about vitamin tablets). Does anyone know of anything you can only get only from fish?



2, My brother has been veggie for 20 years since he was 5- and is very healthy and very active. He rock climbs, parachutes and does lots of sports and also is intelligent. I have been veggie for 11 years and aren't doing too badly either!



3, I don't want to be eating dead flesh- as it isn't natural. And people never used to eat flesh and still managed to survive. (she then argues the shorter lifespan and I point out other factors that would lead to this)



Any other answers would be appreciated. I want to answer without affending-



so "whats it to you" "why do you care" answers wont help,



K
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#2 Old 09-20-2003, 05:31 PM
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The only thing I can think of that you can only get from fish is mercury. Obviously, that's another reason to not eat it. There is more and more evidence of how damaging fish can be when people eat it regularly. Even popular health magazines are publishing articles about the dangers of mercury in fish.



Tell your friend that you don't bother her about her diet so she should leave you alone about yours. It's only fair!
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#3 Old 09-20-2003, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Flower View Post




Tell your friend that you don't bother her about her diet so she should leave you alone about yours. It's only fair!



I would do- but she is going through a very difficuilt stage in her life. I dont know her that well- but she is suffering a lot of emotional problems- and her mother is saying she is an alcholic. It's kind of good for her to take the emphasise of herself for a while. She is suffering a lot inside- it's good to talk about other things with her- so she can escape her world if only for a brief moment. At the moment the things we have in common- are too linked into her issues. This is a good non related topic to talk about. So I feel i should do a bit of research into it...



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#4 Old 09-20-2003, 05:40 PM
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I would do- but she is going through a very difficuilt stage in her life. I dont know her that well- but she is suffering a lot of emotional problems- and her mother is saying she is an alcholic. It's kind of good for her to take the emphasise of herself for a while. She is suffering a lot inside- it's good to talk about other things with her- so she can escape her world if only for a brief moment. At the moment the things we have in common- are too linked into her issues. This is a good non related topic to talk about. So I feel i should do a bit of research into it...



K



Ah, I see. That's so nice of you to be willing to talk about it with her! I hope things get better for her!
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#5 Old 09-20-2003, 05:44 PM
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I only know her through a friend- but she has been staying over a lot as she has been doing various buisness visits. She is a nice girl- but mixed up. She was veggie at one point herself- which is kind of why it's interesting to talk to her about it. I know she wont be able to change me, and I have no intention of changing her. But it gives us some common ground.



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#6 Old 09-20-2003, 05:46 PM
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It's interesting that I have just seen this post. I happened to go back just yesterday to find a couple of article on fish. They are really good - especially the one by the LA Times. This should shut her up:



http://www.latimes.com/news/science/...on9dec09.story



Actually, I love the DawnWatch website. If you go there and scroll down the left frame, you will see a link for fish info. Here's the page anyway:



http://dawnwatch.com/fish.htm



Here's an important part of that page:



"A 2000 National Academy of Sciences report estimated that 60,000 American women are putting their fetuses "at risk" of brain damage because of the mercury they eat and in Spring 2002, the FDA advised all women of childbearing age not to eat any shark, swordfish, king mackerel, and tilefish because of their high mercury content, and to limit consumption of all fish to 12 ounces (about two servings) per week.



A front page story in the San Francisco Chronicle (November 5, 2002) began, "A study of affluent Bay Area residents who were seeking health benefits by eating lots of fish found that they were also loading up on toxic mercury." A letter to the editor of that paper (January 4, 2003) , from the Director of the Department of Toxic Substances Control opened with "There is no doubt that mercury is dangerous" and closed with, "Zero mercury is the only suitable goal for California's environment and the health of all Californians. It's just common sense.



The December 9, 2002, issue of Time Magazine included an article headed, "Eating fish is good for hearts. Mercury may be bad. Which matters more?" The article discussed the benefits from omega-3 acids in fish oils and weighed them against the dangers of mercury poisoning. However, we learn from the January 19 Heart Disease Weekly that "People who eat fish with a raised mercury content run a greater risk of coronary heart disease than previously thought" and "that mercury, which is found in certain fish from environmentally contaminated areas, may counteract the health benefits of certain fatty acids that are also present in fish."



Thus, there is little point loading up on fish to help one's heart. Thank heavens for flax seed oil, available at your local health food store. Flax seeds are another superb source of the same vital omega-3 fatty acids, and they come with none of the dangers and none of the cruelty."



I also like this site:



http://www.fishinghurts.com/bulldozer.html



So, take a look. You're response, BTW, is perfectly valid, and no matter how logical you appear, she will probably not listen. I would follow Flowers advise about telling her to bug off.
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#7 Old 09-20-2003, 05:53 PM
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I hadn't heard much about the mecury in fish- will definatly be mentioning that if she brings it up. And about the flaxseed oil. I add linseed seeds to my cooking- which has the same (or similar) benefit. Cheers for the advice. If i tell her to bog off it will be for other reasons though



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#8 Old 09-20-2003, 06:37 PM
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I find a thermometer a cruelty-free way of obtaining that vital nutrient Mercury rather than consumption of Fish.



Wait..... not totally cruelty-free, as when I bite the glass tube it always cuts my lips and tongue.



Edited: fix typo.
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#9 Old 09-20-2003, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by Kurmudgeon View Post

I find a thermometer a creulty-free way of obtaining that vital nutrient Mercury rather than consumption of Fish.



Wait..... not totally cruelty-free, as when I bite the glass tube it always cuts my lips and tongue.



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#10 Old 09-20-2003, 09:29 PM
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3, I don't want to be eating dead flesh



I can't see that it has to go beyond this really. If you really do want to get her mind off other things, a debate about ethics, humanity, the nature of life and such would be much more involving that a debate about health.

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#11 Old 09-21-2003, 12:00 AM
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Don't forget the environmental aspects...



- Some divers ruin/destroy coral reefs to obtain their catch



- We're STILL fishing for endangered fish



- We're also fishing for the feeder fish that endangered fish eat
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#12 Old 09-21-2003, 12:09 AM
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3, I don't want to be eating dead flesh- as it isn't natural.

While I'm fully behind your choice to do without fish in your diet, I would never use this argument. It's completely natural to eat fish. I think it would be very easy to prove that people have been eating fish for millenia, and that people were eating fish far before the first vegetarians started to arrive. If you ever feel the need to argue a point, make sure it's as correct as your can possibly prove it to be because if the person can prove you wrong it'll take a long time to ever get them to turn to your ideas.
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#13 Old 09-21-2003, 03:19 AM
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I never have a problem with the fish argument... I just say "I hate seafood, always have, always will..." and it's true... LOL



That fetus thing bothers me... reading up about baby diets and such it pisses me off to see how this article and that article recommends FISH FISH FISH for pregnant women!!! (Oh, and let's not forget the wonder food, dairy...)
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#14 Old 09-21-2003, 09:30 AM
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1. fish feel pain (lots of articles on that recently)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2983045.stm

2. (and although we can debate the moral relevence, most people seem to equate intelligence with worth of moral consideration) fish have recently been shown to be much more intelligent than previously thought.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/w...re/3189941.stm

2. the fishing that isn't farmed is usually overfishing and harmful to species other than the fish itself

3.Fish that is farmed is not feed a natural diet and may not contain the same amount of omega-3 fatty acids that people want to get from fish

4.DHA(one of the major fatty acids from fish) is available from pangea.com and veganessentials.com in a form made from algae (what the fish eat) and vegetarian capsules. It's called zen-omega.

http://www.veganhealth.org/shv/#omega3

5. flax seeds contain coumpounds that can be converted to those same omega-3's.

6.the fish that are healthiest are the fattiest ones, but the fat is where the toxins are stored. dioxins, heavy metals, etc.



But the most important argument for not eating it for you is whatever your reason is.
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#15 Old 09-21-2003, 10:17 AM
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I have this problem a lot, too. Maybe your best option is to stop giving rational reasons -- just say that you don't want to eat fish. Bring up something healthy that she doesn't eat.



If you can't find another way to tackle this problem, just tell her you don't want to talk about it anymore. It may hurt her now, but it'll stop her from being really offended later once you've gotten really annoyed.
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#16 Old 09-21-2003, 10:58 AM
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As Thalia said, fish contain EPA and DHA which hardly any plant foods contain. Flaxseeds (and some other plant foods) contain a type of omega-3, alpha-linolenic acid, which can be converted to EPA and DHA by our bodies.



But, it's not clear whether vegans can get enough EPA and DHA by consuming alpha-linolenic acid because the convertion factors are low. If you want to make sure you are getting enough DHA there are vegan DHA capsules available. The DHA in them comes from algae, which is the original source that fish get it from. Our bodies can convert DHA to EPA so we can also get EPA that way.



To maximize the convertion factor (alpha-linolenic acid to DHA and EPA) it's important to not overconsume omega-6. Omega-6 is essential but consuming too much interfers with the conversion of alpha-linolenic acid to DHA and EPA. Vegans in the US generally overconsume omega-6. Vegetarians also overconsume it but to a lesser extent.
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#17 Old 09-21-2003, 11:22 AM
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I never have a problem with the fish argument... I just say "I hate seafood, always have, always will..." and it's true... LOL



Same here Seafood has always been yucky to me.
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#18 Old 09-21-2003, 11:29 AM
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Your friend *might* be right that cultures who eat fish INSTEAD of other meats are healthier. It doesn't logically follow that they are healthy BECAUSE they eat fish. (Just a fun point for argument; I know there are some things in fish that are truly believed to be health-conducive. Others have discussed these, and their possible alternative sources.)



In the modern world, the mercury and other pollutants in fish seem like enough of a reason to avoid it.
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#19 Old 09-22-2003, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by kat View Post




2, My brother has been veggie for 20 years since he was 5- and is very healthy and very active. He rock climbs, parachutes and does lots of sports and also is intelligent.





he's single right? i'll email you my digits

‎"I just think there's something in being lost. I never feel lost. I just think, 'Oh. I've taken a diversion'." ~ Karl Pilkington
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#20 Old 09-22-2003, 02:35 PM
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I've been veggie for about a year & a half, but just recently went through a non-veggie stage, completely convinced by my friends that eating fish was healthier than the diet I was following..... I am now back on a veggie track, mostly just because eating meat/fish simply grosses me out, but it is really good info reading why fish is NOT healthy for you. I knew these things before, but just sorta got confused.

it was really helpful reading all this again. thanks for the info/articles....
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#21 Old 09-22-2003, 04:07 PM
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he's single right? i'll email you my digits



afraid my brothers spoken for! And in england- some way from san diego. He seems pretty chuffed with her- but i haevn't met her yet. I remember going to san diego zoo when i was about 9 (my brother came too)- loved it at the time- but dont like zoos these days. though san diego zoo seemed like a good place to me. anyway if my brother becomes single- i'll let u know.



Cheers for the cool advice on here- she is coming over tonight- but i am feeling sleepy- so may not get a chance to talk to her, but we'll see



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#22 Old 09-22-2003, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by kat View Post

Her arguement basically goes on about how eskimos are very healthy and have a diet that contains a high percentage of fish- whereas people in countries who eat less fish are less healthy. I agree that fish contain a lot of goodness but feel that you can get all the goodness from fish- elsewhere.



I'm not quite sure where your friend got the idea that Eskimos are healthy, because they aren't. The Native Peoples of Canada and Alaska actually have one of the highest rates of heart disease in the world, which happens to correlate with the amount of animal flesh, fish and otherwise, that they consume. One study of men in Alaska, for instance, found that Native men had well over twice the heart disease rates as Asian/Pacific Islander men. Native men had the highest heart disease rates among all men studied, including Caucasian men.



For more information, John Robbins' books contain charts and references to other studies that have positively correlated diet to heart disease rates.
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#23 Old 09-23-2003, 10:45 AM
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sounds good kat, i'll be waiting j/k yes, san diego is MUCH fun. naturally i have not been to the zoo since moving here but there are so many fun things to do in SD. good luck with your argument. Im just as bad at arguing, if not worse, so unfortunately i have no advise to offer in that regard.

‎"I just think there's something in being lost. I never feel lost. I just think, 'Oh. I've taken a diversion'." ~ Karl Pilkington
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#24 Old 09-23-2003, 12:52 PM
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She's a friend of mine! I'll have to tell her you love her site when I go dog-sit for her this weekend.



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Actually, I love the DawnWatch website.

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#25 Old 04-03-2004, 03:06 PM
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http://www.vegetarian.org.uk/fish/index.htm why don't you try reading this?

I'm sure that if you read up on it you will find that you don't really need to eat fish. And also that eskimos apparently can die from just a nose bleed because the amount of fish they eat has thinned their blood so much (i don't know if this is true, i've just been told- correct me if im wrong). Good luck!
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#26 Old 04-03-2004, 04:33 PM
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Well, I've never needed another reason not to eat fish than when I was pregnant seven years ago and my OB gave me a list of seafood from the great lakes region I couldn't eat because it might cause birth defects.



Particularly freshwater fish are just unsafe. All that crap we've been dumping into our waters over the years is really coming back to haunt us, in more ways than one. I think saltwater seafood is safer, but really, I don't think there's a real reason to eat fish.



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#27 Old 04-03-2004, 04:37 PM
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Plus I would ask your friend why she is so interested in what YOU should eat. I don't get this really, why people feel the need to change your/my eating habits simply because they aren't comfortable with what they don't know. You might suggest that she eat fish, and that if she likes you so much as you are, she can maybe stop trying to change you.



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#28 Old 04-03-2004, 05:15 PM
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Since everyone else is going to be saying how fish are bad (and they do have a point), let me play devil's advocate:



Your friend is (partially right)



Wild fish are high in omega 3's, an essential fatty acid. (Emphasis on essential).



There are three main groups of omega 3 fatty acids - LNA, EPA, and DHA. LNA is plant based, while EPA

is found in seaweed, algae, and fish, and DHA is found in fish, eggs, and algae as well.



Needless to say, most vegans tend to get a large amount of LNA and small/no amounts of EPA and DHA.



LNA can be converted into EPA and DHA, but the conversion is rather inefficient.



Vegans (and probably vegetarians as well) need to take steps to ensure that they receive an optimal amount of LNA and low amounts of omega 6 fatty acids.



- From Becoming Vegan, Pages 60-68



You probably want to do a little more reading about this.
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#29 Old 04-03-2004, 05:16 PM
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I'd say, "I don't want to eat fish. I don't care if they provide things that are good for our health or not. I don't want to eat any dead animals, and you won't change it by telling me they're healthy, as that's not enough reason to kill an animal, to me."



Or something like that.
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#30 Old 04-04-2004, 03:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsey View Post

http://www.vegetarian.org.uk/fish/index.htm why don't you try reading this?

I'm sure that if you read up on it you will find that you don't really need to eat fish. And also that eskimos apparently can die from just a nose bleed because the amount of fish they eat has thinned their blood so much (i don't know if this is true, i've just been told- correct me if im wrong). Good luck!



what on earth inspired you to dredge up this 6-month old thread?
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