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#1 Old 06-13-2006, 10:38 AM
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I watched "Meet Your Meat" yesterday online. I was crying all the way throught it. How sad! I did want to share with you all though, that not all cattle farms are that bad; it just seems to be a spectrum. We used to live in Enumclaw, WA and now live in Lemoore, CA. Both have a number of cattle and other types of farms. Lemoore is primarily veggie farms, but there are some cattle and other animals as well. They worst I have seen is the one for Harris Ranch. An enormous amount of cattle are packed into a small, muddy horrible place. They are dirty and miserable looking. On the other hand, in Enumclaw and some farms in between Lemoore and Visalia there plenty of farms where the cows have lots of grassy, open space and they do spend their days outside grazing. I even remember one in particular in Enumclaw. We were driving by and the farmer came outside to call the cows. The cows looked up and ran towards the farmer. The way they were running was not panicked or anything else negative. They reminded me of how my dog acts when I come home. They seemed really excited to see him. Unfortunately, I am sure that for most farmers greed wins out over compassion, but it makes me feel better to remember that there are some happy cows too.
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#2 Old 06-13-2006, 11:36 AM
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I think they are then herded into a truck to go to the death camp.
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#3 Old 06-13-2006, 11:39 AM
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The way they were running was not panicked or anything else negative. They reminded me of how my dog acts when I come home. They seemed really excited to see him. Unfortunately, I am sure that for most farmers greed wins out over compassion, but it makes me feel better to remember that there are some happy cows too.

It's often because the cows are fed by the farmer, so associate the farmer with food, and rush over because they assume they will be fed.

Sometimes it is because they care about the farmer. But in the end, the farmer will be betraying the cows by taking their lives.
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#4 Old 06-13-2006, 11:54 AM
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A rapist and murderer can be nice to his victims, give them food, give them nice cozy rooms with soft beds and tvs. Does that make his crimes any less severe?
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#5 Old 06-13-2006, 12:22 PM
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true, true...
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#6 Old 06-13-2006, 02:41 PM
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Gita, BB and troub, thanks for stealing my thunder. I was going to think of a witty comeback and as I scroll down there are three excellent ones.



I HATE nice farms where cows are treated so nicely and then tortured, killed and mutilated. Factory farms are worse to be sure but those other farms cannot be defended.
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#7 Old 06-13-2006, 03:27 PM
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I think it's important to show support for farms which treat their animals well, before they're sent off to die. I mean we have to be realistic about this, if our goal was to convert everyone to veg*nism we'd be wasting our time. You have to think about it as a process, and animal welfare on farms is a good place to start.

In fact I think that having lived on a farm where the farmer (my Dad) did really care about animal welfare, and where the cows were happy enough (until they went to the sale, or back to the dairy farm) for most of my life, really had an impact on me becoming a vegetarian. My Dad treated the cows with kindness and that rubbed off on me, then I took it a step further by realizing that they didn't deserve to die so that I could enjoy a particular flavour.

Any steps towards better animal welfare are good ones.
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#8 Old 06-13-2006, 03:31 PM
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Hey isn't this thread in kind of the wrong place?
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#9 Old 06-13-2006, 04:02 PM
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As Ghandi said: "Be the change that you want to see in the world".



I will never support death farms of any sort.



I wonder when slavery was alive and kicking in the United States, did people say "We have to be realistic about this, if our goal was to convert everyone to not use slaves we'd be wasting our time."





I believe that the human collective will one day look back and be ashamed of this animal holocaust, if not in my lifetime, then some day.



"free range" farms are just as evil as facory farms in my opinion, just with a pretty name and look stamped over it.
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#10 Old 06-13-2006, 04:05 PM
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As Ghandi said: "Be the change that you want to see in the world".

Gandhi

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#11 Old 06-13-2006, 04:46 PM
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I wonder when slavery was alive and kicking in the United States, did people say "We have to be realistic about this, if our goal was to convert everyone to not use slaves we'd be wasting our time."

"free range" farms are just as evil as facory farms in my opinion, just with a pretty name and look stamped over it.



I knew I'd be alone in this one. Have you ever spent any time on a free range farm Troub?

I mean I know the concept of farming is inherently wrong, but when I'm there, the focus is always on looking after the cows, feeding them, making sure they're not sick or injured, working on water troughs so they can have fresh clean water, putting zinc in the troughs so they don't get eczema. It's just so hard for me to consider these things as being bad, especially when they come up to the fence and eat grass out of your hand, or want you to scratch them behind their ears or under their necks.



The slave analogy is a pretty good one, cows are effectively slaves. But I still think that if people were encouraged (particularly by the law) to treat the animals they're farming well, then that has to be a good thing. I think that a focus on welfare within the current system is the best way to achieve change because I don't think that people who are completely unfamiliar with cows are going to care about their rights. I wouldn't be a vegetarian now if I hadn't spent so much time with cows, on a free range farm, and learned about their beautiful personalities and individuality.
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#12 Old 06-13-2006, 04:52 PM
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I mean I know the concept of farming is inherently wrong, but when I'm there, the focus is always on looking after the cows, feeding them, making sure they're not sick or injured, working on water troughs so they can have fresh clean water, putting zinc in the troughs so they don't get eczema.

Well you know what those in animal agriculture say: you cannot have a "productive" animal if you don't care for him/her properly (which is obviously a lie though, as any look at a factory farm can prove).

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#13 Old 06-13-2006, 04:56 PM
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I'm with you on this so you're not alone. I'm pretty new to the whole vegetarian thing but I feel pretty strongly that all animals in captivity should be treated humanely during their lifetimes regardless of the end result. Sure, the world would probably be a better place if people didn't eat animals at all but in the meantime, I don't see anything wrong with working to improve the living conditions of farm animals.
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#14 Old 06-13-2006, 05:09 PM
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i agree with you, too, gas4...sure we don't want the cows to be killed at all, but better they live a nicer life then die, than be tortured then die...even if i knew that i was going to be killed, i'd still want be treated well while i'm living (esp if i were unaware that my death was coming)...i'm not saying any of it is good, but i do think one is better than the other...
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#15 Old 06-13-2006, 07:21 PM
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I also agree with gas4. I don't think the world is an "all-or-nothing" place. I also don't think that you can equate human slavery with free-range farming. Any steps toward better animal welfare, is good. The war isn't won in a single battle.
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#16 Old 06-13-2006, 07:39 PM
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...the focus is always on looking after the cows, feeding them, making sure they're not sick or injured...



Until they murder them, in cold blood.
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#17 Old 06-13-2006, 09:29 PM
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Until they murder them, in cold blood.



Yes, but you have to understand that my parents farm is not directly involved in any actual murder. They don't technically farm the cows themselves, they raise them to a certain age and them return them to the dairy farmer, or sell them at the sale, at which point someone will buy them (these are the bulls) and either use them to service their herd or raise them for at least another year before they're killed for meat.



So although I know that eventually they will be killed, that just doesn't go on there. I'm probably emotionally biased because of that, I haven't really been exposed to the actual killing process which is the fate of almost all cows.



I do have one other redeming feature though - I've convinced my Dad that two of my 'pet' cows should be allowed to live for the rest of their lives on the farm, and my Brother has two more.
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#18 Old 06-14-2006, 04:15 PM
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The OP mentions MYM and how it made her cry and all that. As I recall, the last scene in MYM is the two pigs who have their throats slit and they are left to bleed to death. That is how the animals from "nice" farms die.



It is true that factory farms are worse than "nice" farms in that the animals on factory farms are tortured their whole lives.



"Nice" farms are worse than factory farms in that they try to present this nicey, nicey scene of people who truly love animals. Dog fighters take excellent care of their dogs so that they'll fight well when the death match comes. Same with **** fighters. Bull fighters make sure the bulls are big, healthy specimens that can put on an impressive show as they are slowly killed. It's not so much the amount of torture that is meaningful but the relationship we have with animals. To condemn any animal to needless torture and death is to have a warped relationship with animals.



I don't think people who work on "nice" farms are bad people. I don't think those who work in factory farms are bad either. These people just don't get it. If you ask most of those people what they would do if they saw someone beating a dog I'm willing to bet they'd answer that they'd call the police or intervene directly.



But what if it that person wasn't beating the dog but instead hit the dog in the head to stun the dog and then slit the dog's throat? I think they'd still call the police. What if the animal wasn't a dog but was a pig?



If we keep saying that these "nice" farms are nice then people will get to believe that somehow they are being nice to animals if they eat meat from those farms. If we don't speak the truth then we won't arrive at the goal. The truth we speak isn't just our truth but the truth of all those who want pets dogs and cats to be protected from torture. Being consistant means protecting all animals from needless torture.



This will happen in steps but if those first people didn't speak up for dogs and other pet animals we wouldn't have any laws today that protect these animals from torture.
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#19 Old 06-14-2006, 06:44 PM
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I watched "Meet Your Meat" yesterday online. I was crying all the way throught it. How sad! I did want to share with you all though, that not all cattle farms are that bad; it just seems to be a spectrum. We used to live in Enumclaw, WA and now live in Lemoore, CA. Both have a number of cattle and other types of farms. Lemoore is primarily veggie farms, but there are some cattle and other animals as well. They worst I have seen is the one for Harris Ranch. An enormous amount of cattle are packed into a small, muddy horrible place. They are dirty and miserable looking. On the other hand, in Enumclaw and some farms in between Lemoore and Visalia there plenty of farms where the cows have lots of grassy, open space and they do spend their days outside grazing. I even remember one in particular in Enumclaw. We were driving by and the farmer came outside to call the cows. The cows looked up and ran towards the farmer. The way they were running was not panicked or anything else negative. They reminded me of how my dog acts when I come home. They seemed really excited to see him. Unfortunately, I am sure that for most farmers greed wins out over compassion, but it makes me feel better to remember that there are some happy cows too.



have you ever seen a animal slaughtered?



you'd stop feeling better in a second.
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#20 Old 06-14-2006, 10:29 PM
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About the fact of cows at least having a partially happy life... well for me... if someone were going to butcher me... I could go either way... Having a happy life, then being slaughtered... then again having a crappy life where I just wanted to die, I'd be greatful someone ended it for me... I would hate to be forced into a crappy life though ...although I doubt I think like a cow thinks... so I dunno. I'm not sure where I'm going w/this.. I just skimmed through a few comments and got to thinking. *shrug*



Anyway, I live on a farm... rent the house... then others rent the land and the crops. I have no control over what goes on w/those, but there are cows here (huge acreage) and they get to roam free and do their thing, etc... I cringe when "pick-up" time comes, cuz I know what's gonna happen next, but I must admit, seeing the cows happy at the time (even knowing the end result) makes me feel a little better. Either way, it's a lose lose situation.



Again, I dunno where I was going w/this...and didn't read all posts, etc... just a random thought/rant/whatever....
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#21 Old 06-16-2006, 08:36 AM
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Where I live, beef is repacing tobacco steadily. These are "nice" farms which I feel affect the way the people think of beef. The cows roam around, graze, and generally do what cows do. They are not "sent to slaughter" as such. They are sold at the local market. Of course, they are normally bought by feedlot operaters who send 'em to Hell on earth. They have been trying to put in a factory dairy over in TN. Its getting a lot of protest from residents. They don't want the smell, who can blaim 'em. But if it goes in, I hope people get a chance to see how factory farm animals are treated. I used to live in Tyson Chicken house country, but all we saw were big long "houses" on the mostly family Dairy farms that had been driven out of business. Nobody but the farmers could have told you what went on inside.
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#22 Old 06-16-2006, 10:01 AM
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My neighbor across the road runs a cow-and-calf operation and a small feedlot. He seems to care for the general well-being of his animals, which is more than one can say about some of the ranchers around here.
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#23 Old 06-16-2006, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by slp2b View Post

I watched "Meet Your Meat" yesterday online. I was crying all the way throught it. How sad! I did want to share with you all though, that not all cattle farms are that bad; it just seems to be a spectrum. We used to live in Enumclaw, WA and now live in Lemoore, CA. Both have a number of cattle and other types of farms. Lemoore is primarily veggie farms, but there are some cattle and other animals as well. They worst I have seen is the one for Harris Ranch. An enormous amount of cattle are packed into a small, muddy horrible place. They are dirty and miserable looking. On the other hand, in Enumclaw and some farms in between Lemoore and Visalia there plenty of farms where the cows have lots of grassy, open space and they do spend their days outside grazing. I even remember one in particular in Enumclaw. We were driving by and the farmer came outside to call the cows. The cows looked up and ran towards the farmer. The way they were running was not panicked or anything else negative. They reminded me of how my dog acts when I come home. They seemed really excited to see him. Unfortunately, I am sure that for most farmers greed wins out over compassion, but it makes me feel better to remember that there are some happy cows too.





the end result is DEATH. its just way too sick to be all nice to the cows, then pop a captive bolt into their skull.



the cows probably ran to the farmer thinking they were gonna get fresh food or something.



dont forget what the end result is.
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#24 Old 06-16-2006, 11:07 AM
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I think it's important to show support for farms which treat their animals well, before they're sent off to die. I mean we have to be realistic about this, if our goal was to convert everyone to veg*nism we'd be wasting our time. You have to think about it as a process, and animal welfare on farms is a good place to start.

In fact I think that having lived on a farm where the farmer (my Dad) did really care about animal welfare, and where the cows were happy enough (until they went to the sale, or back to the dairy farm) for most of my life, really had an impact on me becoming a vegetarian. My Dad treated the cows with kindness and that rubbed off on me, then I took it a step further by realizing that they didn't deserve to die so that I could enjoy a particular flavour.

Any steps towards better animal welfare are good ones.



but we dont want people to think its acceptable to eat meat. the "welfare" groups kind of give that impression.
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#25 Old 06-16-2006, 12:32 PM
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Stan, I'm trying to understand your position. Do you think it better for the animals to be mistreated before they are killed?
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#26 Old 06-16-2006, 03:01 PM
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I think he thinks its better for animals to not get killed at all.
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#27 Old 06-16-2006, 03:02 PM
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Stan, I'm trying to understand your position. Do you think it better for the animals to be mistreated before they are killed?



what do you think?
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#28 Old 06-16-2006, 03:04 PM
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I think it's about the fact that by treating the animal nice before killing him/her you are betraying the animal's trust in a way. That doesn't mean that it's better to mistreat, just that it's still disturbing in a way.



Kinda reminds me of those vivisection supporters who are nice to their cats and then say on VB that they wouldn't hesitate to donate the cat to torture if this could save someone... (although since they don't actually do that, it's different from this case, just that the attitude is disturbing in a similar way)

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#29 Old 06-16-2006, 03:09 PM
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what do you think?





Stan, I'm asking you.
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#30 Old 06-16-2006, 03:34 PM
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I think it's about the fact that by treating the animal nice before killing him/her you are betraying the animal's trust in a way. That doesn't mean that it's better to mistreat, just that it's still disturbing in a way.



Kinda reminds me of those vivisection supporters who are nice to their cats and then say on VB that they wouldn't hesitate to donate the cat to torture if this could save someone... (although since they don't actually do that, it's different from this case, just that the attitude is disturbing in a similar way)



people on THIS board have said that?? mother ****, where am i????????
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