Why Vegans Piss Me Off - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 04-12-2006, 12:31 AM
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I'm erasing this. Will you guys listen to yourselves? This thread is REALLY boring.



I posted this hoping to find some open-minded folks and instead you are nitpicking over definitions and words in a silly way.



Can't anyone (other than kpickell who is like the coolest person ever - and a few others whose screen names I don't remember) see that we are all here for the same reason and we should embrace one another despite our differences?



I might be done with veggieboards. I'm glad my vegan friends are friendlier and more inclusive than some of the people I've seen here. You talk about not wanting to be "fringe" or "marginalized." Well, I don't see much difference between several folks around here and the anti-abortion crazies I see with pictures of dead fetuses that protest on the street.
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#2 Old 04-12-2006, 12:51 AM
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I'm right with you ^_^ While I have not had honey (on purpose), if I get allergies when I move to NC, I'm going to be consuming local raw honey (hear this now, fellow vegans!!) daily...why??!! Cuz if anyone has allergies such as I've had here in florida, and does not want the threat of taking claritin every day for the rest of their foresaken life, they'd understand that without the honey, that allergen-ridden human will be suffering indefinitely (and for me, it will be seasonally, for 15 yrs)...



So, I'm pro-local-raw-honey. I think the benefits in my case definitely outweigh the consequences. I'm an animal too, fortunately.
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#3 Old 04-12-2006, 12:53 AM
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We have had a few go rounds here that were friendly and not so friendly to the point some people were deeply offended about that very attitude. I am not vegan, so I haven't got one fighter in that ring, but don't you think it is not so much what people say as how they say it? Written communication is a tricky thing too. We can't see the other person's face so we sometimes don't realize how what we say is being received. The reader can not see our face so they may not be able to get our full intent. Then the misunderstanding hits the fan. At least thats my opinion.
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#4 Old 04-12-2006, 12:59 AM
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As a vegan (who doesnt eat bees vomit!) I dont give a toss what people eat as long as they dont label themselves vegan if they are not. I have a cousin who says she veggie yet she eats fish, well, excuse me!.



You carry on eating honey if you want, but you are NOT vegan. Dear departed Donald Watson who created the word vegan did Not eat anything remotely animal. He , bless him, died in his 90's.
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#5 Old 04-12-2006, 01:20 AM
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Geeze, I totally know how it feels to be in, yet out. I'm a rural girl that isn't really rural at all - I'm on the outskirts of a rural area that's really more of a rural, rural, rural area (and figure that one out if you feel brave enough to ).



And dietarily (is that a word?), I'm a strictie [veg] that's in it for health reasons. And that's it. Yet, to some, that's the same as saying I'm an omni that doesn't eat meat, except when no one's looking. But to others, it's the same as saying that I kill animals with my teeth, eat it tip to tail in one bite, and I take pictures of everything I consume, step by nausiating step.



All because I'm a strict vegetarian that's in it for health and that's it.



Yea, whatever, mate.



The Vegan Police can bite my



Twice.



And people want to know why I'll never be vegan....



/rant
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#6 Old 04-12-2006, 01:32 AM
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If it makes you feel any better, VeganOutreach.org sides with you.
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#7 Old 04-12-2006, 01:34 AM
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Honey Eater = Not Vegan



Sorry, I'm not policing, but that's the main reason I call myself vegetarian and not vegan. It is like calling a pollotarian or pescatarian a vegetarian, what good is the term if we use it incorrectly?



If every vegetarian says, well I'm vegan BUT...omnis quit listening after vegan and assume, well, whatever the unwashed masses assume about veg*ans. They don't care about vegan or vegetarian distinction anyway. When I eat out I have to explain vegan because nobody knows what the eff the difference is anyway.



We have to respect the terms we ourselves use or the definition of the term gets completely mangled and becomes meaningless.
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#8 Old 04-12-2006, 01:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sketchy View Post

If every vegetarian says, well I'm vegan BUT...omnis quit listening after vegan and assume, well, whatever the unwashed masses assume about veg*ans. They don't care about vegan or vegetarian distinction anyway. When I eat out I have to explain vegan because nobody knows what the eff the difference is anyway.



We have to respect the terms we ourselves use or the definition of the term gets completely mangled and becomes meaningless.

No, the reason omnivores don't listen to us is because we nit pick about ridiculous things.



Quote:
Vegan Outreach - "What About Honey"



How should vegans treat this issue publicly? We tend to think that making an issue about honey allows people to marginalize vegans as being in favor of insect rights.' Most people won't yet face the pain and suffering involved in meat. Equating meat with honey probably makes the vegan case nonsensical to the average person.



Saying that honey is a significant ethical issue brings in a range of other issues that people can easily dismiss veganism, reducto ad absurdum. Can't eat honey? Can't kill cockroaches? Can't swat mosquitoes? Squashing flies with your car is the same as eating veal?



At this point in history, the obvious and undeniable issues should receive our focus. We should probably cut people some slack when it comes to insects, even if we ourselves see value in the avoidance of harming them.



And this brings us back to the original question of what is a 'vegan'? Perhaps instead of defining a vegan as "someone who does not use animal products," we should define a vegan as "someone who reasonably avoids products that cause suffering to nonhumans."



This might upset some people who feel that without a dogmatic approach (i.e., a governing body making rules for everyone else), veganism will become meaningless as people will be rationalizing all sorts of behavior. But as the situation stands now, veganism's dogmatic overtones not only drive people away, but make them not even consider giving up many animal products. If we allowed people to call themselves 'vegan' and let them decide what is reasonable, we could then try to convince them using reason, rather than dogma. How can we scare people away by telling them to do what they think is most reasonable? We think the animals would be much better off with this approach both in the short and long run.

Emphasis mine. If we cared about animal suffering, we'd realize that making an issue out of honey only drives people away from even considering veganism, thus causing more suffering for all animals.
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#9 Old 04-12-2006, 01:48 AM
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I call myself Vegan - although I will consume honey. The reason I don't call myself Vegetarian??? Cus then when I do eat at peoples house's they will start to cook using eggs, milk, cheese, etc etc... so I find it easier (and friendlier) to say I am a vegan. I do NOT want to say I am vegetarian, who doesn't eat eggs or milk, as I can see people sneaking them into my food!!!
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#10 Old 04-12-2006, 01:50 AM
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kpickell - thanks. what you said was nicer than what i was going to say, which was going to be "bite me."



i think we need to be inclusive and nonjudgmental of others so they can see we are a diverse bunch and we are all here for many reasons. catch more flies with honey - no pun intended.



the whole idea about honey = not vegan. i get it. but to an omnivore i say i'm vegan. if they know vegans dont eat honey and feed me a substitute, fine. otherwise, i guarantee it will never come up. the eggs and dairy thing they get. beyond that they are too busy eating their McFood to care.
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#11 Old 04-12-2006, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by butterfly_acid View Post

I'm right with you ^_^ While I have not had honey (on purpose), if I get allergies when I move to NC, I'm going to be consuming local raw honey (hear this now, fellow vegans!!) daily...why??!! Cuz if anyone has allergies such as I've had here in florida, and does not want the threat of taking claritin every day for the rest of their foresaken life, they'd understand that without the honey, that allergen-ridden human will be suffering indefinitely (and for me, it will be seasonally, for 15 yrs)...



So, I'm pro-local-raw-honey. I think the benefits in my case definitely outweigh the consequences. I'm an animal too, fortunately.



That's the other thing. I'm vegan for environmental reasons. So whats better for the environment? Local Wisconsin raw honey or refined sugar from Florida?
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#12 Old 04-12-2006, 02:02 AM
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What about honey and silk?

Again, it depends on one's definition of vegan. Insects are animals, and so insect products, such as honey and silk, are often not considered vegan. Many vegans, however, are not opposed to using insect products, because they do not believe insects are conscious of pain. Moreover, even if insects were conscious of pain, it's not clear that the production of honey involves any more pain for insects than the production of most vegetables or other sweeteners, since the harvesting and transportation of all crops involves insect deaths. The question remains a matter of scientific debate and personal choice. When cooking or labeling food for vegans -- particularly vegans you don't know -- it's best to be on the safe side and not include honey. As for vegan advocacy, we think it's best to avoid the issue as a defining one.



Vegan Outreach link mentioned earlier
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#13 Old 04-12-2006, 02:06 AM
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Just about all the vegans I know personally will eat honey and not feel too guilty about it. I think you're doing great orangeclouds , you have nothing to worry about. Don't let the nit picky get to you.
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#14 Old 04-12-2006, 02:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrangeClouds115 View Post

That's the other thing. I'm vegan for environmental reasons. So whats better for the environment? Local Wisconsin raw honey or refined sugar from Florida?



that's a good question. I'd actually be consuming the honey (not cuz I like the taste, cuz the taste is actually unpleasant for me), but "selfishly" so that I'm not sneezing all over me, my clothing, my customers, my guests, my daughter, those around me, my friends, my family, my cats, my bed, my food while it's cooking, my steering wheel...



Dare I keep going? Imagine I happen to have enough cold virus in my nose...and I happen to sneeze and the droplet with enough virus in it infects my daughter with a cold. Then she's sick, which gets me enough mutated virus to actually go from being a carrier to being really sick. Then we'll be sick for ages all because of uncontrollable allergy sneezes (not to mention the watery runny nose that drips on everything under my nose).



So, I hate the taste of honey, I wouldn't be eating it saying "yum, this is the greatest stuff ever!"....



LOL...I'd be praying to the goddess that might be that it's actually going to help prevent my allergies for that coming year.



And if it doesn't, well then, I won't eat the raw local honey (or any honey), ever again.



According to Vegan Outreach, there's no determination on that subject. The more it's dwelled on, the less enticing veganism (and even vegetarianism) becomes to an omnivore.







would you prefer to drive people away from veganism or toward veganism?
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#15 Old 04-12-2006, 03:00 AM
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Orange, if it makes you feel any better, I think it would be awesome if the entire world would abstain from all animal products except honey. While I would technically maintain that you weren't vegan (and someone could probably find plenty of places to pin me in this fashion by giving my home a walk-through), I would say that you're doing an awesome job and not fudge the vegan part.



For those of us who are worried about this matter being like vegetarians saying they eat fish, I think in both matters (honey, fish, etc.), we're pretty much doomed to checking labels and asking specific questions.
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#16 Old 04-12-2006, 03:24 AM
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I don't think it makes the slightest difference whether someone calls you vegan or vegetarian. It's them who gets pissed off over it, just ignore them and do whatever you want.
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#17 Old 04-12-2006, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Scythe View Post

I don't think it makes the slightest difference whether someone calls you vegan or vegetarian. It's them who gets pissed off over it, just ignore them and do whatever you want.



Agreed. I eat what I eat and a label won't change it. I formed my beliefs based on facts and my diet is in accordance with those beliefs.
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#18 Old 04-12-2006, 03:58 AM
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It you're going to stretch the truth about being vegan or about where you grew up that's fine. But put up with the flack you receive and don't whine about it, k?

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#19 Old 04-12-2006, 05:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sketchy View Post

Honey Eater = Not Vegan



Sorry, I'm not policing, but that's the main reason I call myself vegetarian and not vegan. It is like calling a pollotarian or pescatarian a vegetarian, what good is the term if we use it incorrectly?



If every vegetarian says, well I'm vegan BUT...omnis quit listening after vegan and assume, well, whatever the unwashed masses assume about veg*ans. They don't care about vegan or vegetarian distinction anyway. When I eat out I have to explain vegan because nobody knows what the eff the difference is anyway.



We have to respect the terms we ourselves use or the definition of the term gets completely mangled and becomes meaningless.



Actually most omni's don't listen because they think veganism is a pyscho activist thing. They think vegans are obsessed with every aspect of life, constantly checking every solitary thing for an animal by product like a crazed animal. They see arguments like this as an affirmation of that.

Personally, I don't think anyone can be vegan by the guidelines set forth on this board. Drive a car? How do you know there aren't animal products in it? Seriously in this society can you completely drive out every solitary item that has any part derived from an animal? If not where exactly does one draw the line? Who decides what someone *needs* and doesn't need? Who gets to choose where it's ok to stop worrying about animal by products? It can probably be argued that you don't need anything questionable they just make life easier.

Frankly I'll happily stay vegetarian. I won't even call myself a strict vegetarian. I just do the best I can do and I leave it at that.

Mary
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#20 Old 04-12-2006, 05:47 AM
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don't sweat the honey

i'm vegan, don't consume honey, but it doesn't really bother me when other vegan's consume honey, and i would still definately call you a vegan



you may meet vegan cops occasionally, but how does honey even come up in conversation? I don't think most vegans run around talking about honey. I have only a few RL vegan friends, but the subject has never come up. The only place i've ever seen the subject come up is on internet boards, and it doesn't take much to get people to freak completely out on internet boards.



All that being said, why not just order some agave nectar then you'll be off the hook with the vegan firing squad? That's what I did anyway, but i also just use it mainly on my toast, and use unbleached turbinado sugar for cooking. The nectar costs a wee bit more than honey, but not enough to worry about.
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#21 Old 04-12-2006, 06:18 AM
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Another vegan who eats honey, here. I've been vegan for 15 years. I initially ate no honey, no sugar, etc... Now I do. No vegan, unless they produce and cook ALL of their own food, is 100% vegan.



And when I travel, I'm even less anal about what's in my food in terms of "unseen egg or dairy by-products." But I still call myself vegan.
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#22 Old 04-12-2006, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by OrangeClouds115 View Post

Bees suck. I eat honey too.

Umm.. okay. I personally wouldn't bother someone about eating honey and calling themselves vegan - although I myself try to avoid it like other animal products - but "bees suck" seems like an odd response.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#23 Old 04-12-2006, 06:35 AM
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I think bees suck = they are not cute and fuzzy.



In my experience, vegetarians/vegans on message boards care more about what I eat than omni's. Omni's I know don't really care at all unless it incoveniences them in any way.
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#24 Old 04-12-2006, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by SotallyTober View Post


In my experience, vegetarians/vegans on message boards care more about what I eat than omni's.

Isn't that kinda self-evident? Omnis don't have much of an ethical reason to care about what you eat, and your eating habits don't affect the definition of 'omnivore' (like a "veg*n" eating fish makes people offer fish to veg*ns).

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#25 Old 04-12-2006, 06:41 AM
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Bees are sometimes portrayed as cute, and they are fuzzy.
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#26 Old 04-12-2006, 06:44 AM
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if i want somethin sweet, ill go buy some agave nectar, but i think honey is getting close to the area where you can bring up 1000 similar unvegan points, so, um not a very big deal here for the times.... but for me since its so easy to avoid, then i just figure why not? the only reason i have to eat it would be for taste alone...
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#27 Old 04-12-2006, 06:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scythe View Post

Bees are sometimes portrayed as cute, and they are fuzzy.



yeah, such as Maya the bee, the old nickelodean show!!!



you wouldnt hurt maya the bee would you?



lol!
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#28 Old 04-12-2006, 06:55 AM
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Or the Romper Room Do-Bee. Only Aussies would remember him though. I thought the Don't Bee was cute too, though you were supposed to really dislike him!

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#29 Old 04-12-2006, 06:56 AM
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or what about the bee guy from the simpsons? everybody loves him!!!
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#30 Old 04-12-2006, 07:10 AM
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I've never seen bee's in the petty zoo though. Just saying....Most people think bugs are icky.
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