I'm kind of teetering here between veg*nism and non-veg*nism... - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 08-17-2005, 02:59 PM
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Hi, i'm eating vegetarian (actually vegan w/exception of fish & eggs). I'm doing this on a trial basis for now. The good news is, I started by telling a buddy that i would try it for two weeks, just to see if what he said was true. He made all kinds of wild claims like i would have tons of energy and feel great etc... It's been a month now and everything he's said is coming true although i'm not sure if it's due to the subtraction of meat from my diet or the addition of so many fruits and vegetables...



Anyway, i have a little bit of a leg up on most would-be vegetarians because i was raised in an Adventist family and we were lacto-ovo vegetarians for about 10 years (for me age 5-15). The other advantage i have is that i love to cook and i think that makes a huge difference in avoiding fast-food, getting in a rut eating the same things etc...



On the downside: While i've lost about 8 pounds in the last month, my wife has gained a couple because she's eating too many carbs & not enough protein... she's already saying she wants to go back to eating dairy so she can have her cottage cheese, yoghurt, real milk on her cereal etc...



Further on the downside, i'm a hunter (yes i track down living things, murder them and as was so well put by another poster when i was browsing the forum, i eat their rotting flesh). Only i don't quite see it that way. Hunting season is coming in 3 months. Whatever your ethical objections to hunting, it's time i get to spend with the family, it's time spent away from work, in nature, getting excersize, it's an incredible source of (venison) lean, hormone/steroid/antibiotic free organic meat... I realize this makes me an evil murderer in many of your eyes, but i've heard every argument pro and con and i've come to my own conclusions (i won't try to convince you i'm right). This is huge for me to say the least. I may be able to put this issue off for another year though, since the unit we hunt near our cabin is a lottery draw and we didn't get drawn this year. (although i'm sure i'll be asked to do some local hunts here near the coast).



The other issues: I like steak. There is a butcher about 10 miles from my home that gets grass-fed buffalo from eastern Oregon. It's actually pretty good once you learn how to cook it (most people over-cook it because it cooks faster than corn-fattened beef).



Anyway, this is a tough decision for me. I definitely feel good, and it's true that i have more energy and i've certainly lost some un-needed weight... but i could very easily say screw it, and eat only game-meat or organic/grass-fed meat and still be head and shoulders above my previous diet...



Anyway, thanks for listening, and please don't sick peta on me or burn my house down.



-Antiacus
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#2 Old 08-17-2005, 03:20 PM
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Just a couple things to point out. If you still eat fish, you are not eating vegetarian. And you are very far from being considered vegan. The muscle tissue of any animal is meat, and as far as I know fish are still considered animals. Just cut out fish, and give it a try for a few more weeks.
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#3 Old 08-17-2005, 03:25 PM
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antiacus,



Good luck on your diet decisions.
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#4 Old 08-17-2005, 03:51 PM
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Well, truth be told, in the last month i've had 2 tuna salad pita pockets, so i don't think it's affected the results of my little expiriment to any appreciable degree.



If i'm vegan with the exception of eggs and fish i'm not going to feel somehow left out because i'm not in the club. That's not the reason i'm doing this. I'm doing it because i want to be healthier and feel better.



It's easier to describe my diet as "vegan w/exception of eggs & fish" than to list everything i do or don't eat...
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#5 Old 08-17-2005, 04:03 PM
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I guess I'll start calling myself "vegan, except for the occassional egg or bit of cheese".



Vegans don't eat animals or eat anything made from an animal. Nor do they wear animals. And they DEFINATELY do not hunt them! You can't be "vegan, except for..."



For someone who's not trying to "feel somehow left out because i'm not in the club", you are trying awfully hard to get IN the club.



You are a person who's trying eat healthier and maybe become vegetarian and/or vegan one day. But you are not "vegan, except for..."



I do think that any animal products you're willing to cut out of your diet are great. The less animals any of us eat, the better...and for the record, I think that if you're going to eat meat, then eating meat you hunted and/or fished for is the most ethical way to do it



As for the wife - does she get plenty of fiber and/or nuts? That will help her feel full.
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#6 Old 08-17-2005, 04:06 PM
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fdffds

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#7 Old 08-17-2005, 04:16 PM
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Thanks for the clarification Jack... I guess there isn't a word for what i'm doing... I know there are people who claim to be vegetarian who eat dairy and fish (Seventh Day Adventists), and there is a word for them, but i don't think there is a word for a vegetarian who eats no dairy, but eggs and fish, heh.



I was just using the term as a matter of simplifying the semantics... But I see how that could earn the ire of a true vegan. I wouldn't want someone telling me "Hey, i'm a libertarian like you, except i believe in government controlled education and jailing pot smokers"... I get it.



As for the wife, she's been eating a few nuts here and there, i've made a couple of stir-fry's and added nuts... She does eat lots of raw fruits and vegetables so she's getting fiber... I think the problem is that she's a grazer, and she's been eating too much bread. Her other complaint is that all the soy she's been eating is making her gassy and bloated but i'm skeptical that that is the real reason.



-Antiacus
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#8 Old 08-17-2005, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by antiacus View Post

i don't think there is a word for a vegetarian who eats no dairy, but eggs and fish, heh.

Ovo-Pesco-vegetarian. Or ovo-pescatarian.
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#9 Old 08-17-2005, 04:26 PM
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Its great that you are trying to cut down on the amount of animal products you consume. Kudos to you and your wife for that.



The claim that eating strictly plant foods will suddenly make a person feel great has always bothered me. If you go from eating a non-veg diet filled with junk food to a healthy vegetarian diet, you will probably notice a positive change in your health and energy levels. However, I don't believe that strictly cutting meat out of ones diet will miraculously cure all that ails. However, the addition of more fruits and veggies is certainly a good way to go for anyone, veg or not.



I'd also like to point out that your wifes weight gain is not likely directly due to too many 'carbs' and not enough protein. She is most likely consuming more calories than she used to. Perhaps, she simply doesn't feel mentally satisifed with her new food choices and is unintentionally eating more of other foods to in essense to attempt to fill the void.



With all that said, I have to say that I'm highly disappointed that you chose to dedicate half your post to how great you think hunting and the local butcher are. This is a vegetarian board and those types of comments are highly insensitive in this situation.
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#10 Old 08-17-2005, 04:31 PM
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Whew. Interesting first post.

My ex and his parents were big time hunters and I do have to say if you are going to eat meat, this is the "better" way to go about it. (Ducks rotton vegetables being thrown). At least you're aware of the process your meal goes through from living, breathing creature to backstrap steak for dinner.

I had some Adventist influence growing up as well, and though it may have influenced my growing up vegetarian somewhat, my compassion for God's creation has been what's strongly influenced my choice to live a vegan lifestyle. You do realize it's whole lifestyle, right? Not just a diet like "Atkins" that you can't stay on forever or it'll damage the heck outta your kidneys...but I digress...

I agree with the others that you can't be "Vegan except for...". It's definitely admirable that you want to be healthy and eat less meat. There's many people out there who ascribe to this sort of eating and it's definitely more healthy than many of the alternatives.

You do realize, however, that the title of this board is "VEGGIE" Booards? Meaning that people here are most likely going to support those who are vegetarian, vegan, or those who are really trying to be. (Not trying to be argumentative) but it doesn't sound like you are interested in those catagories. My question, I guess, is: What exactly are you looking for, from VB?

Most of us are going to want to encourage you to be vegetarian or vegan... if you aren't interested in that, what can we offer you? Your wife sunds like she needs to understand the whole carbs concept better. If she's eating a whole foods diet with whole, unprocessed grains as part of it, she won't be having a problem with wanting less carbs and more protein. There's a lot of info here on VB about healthy food choices and ways to lose weight as a veg*n. If that's what you're looking for, check out some of the relevant threads using the search function. Pretty handy that.



If you're wanting us to condone your "not vegetarian/hunter/sometimes eat fish" lifestyle, that may be a long tme in coming. I am sure you're welcome to read, ask questions, discuss and learn. But the whole "I still am planning to hunt, kill and eat meat" thing is going to be a little tough for some of us to swallow (no pun intended).

While eating some venison probably isn't going to hurt you - healthwise - I think there's many of us here who still can't get past the fact that it still does hurt another creature in the process...the deer. (I know, you've heard it all, sorry).

I always tell new vegetarians to this board "Vegetarianism is a journey, the path will have ups and downs - good luck on that journey"... I guess I'd wish you the same thing, just not alltogether sure where you want to be headed on your journey.
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#11 Old 08-17-2005, 04:32 PM
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Personally, I think every step in a direction toward eliminating meat from one's diet is a positive one, so good for you for investigating a meat-free lifestyle.



I'm not going to condemn you for hunting. But you can go out and enjoy time in nature with your family without killing anything. You could go on a backpacking trip, or just go out on a day hike. My grandfather used to be a hunter, but one season he realized that he just couldn't bring himself to kill anything else. So he swapped his gun for a camera, and he took some incredibly beautiful nature photos in the latter years of his life.
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#12 Old 08-17-2005, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by antiacus View Post

I know there are people who claim to be vegetarian who eat dairy and fish (Seventh Day Adventists),

Point of clarification: Not all Adventists are vegetarian, though many are. Most are not vegan. Some of them do eat fish, or other meat. But if they do, just like anyone else here, they do not call themselves "vegetarian".
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#13 Old 08-17-2005, 04:36 PM
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I'm sorry Jinga, i was just trying to explain where i am coming from and maybe hear from someone who has gone through what i am... I could have just said that i was a hunter but i wanted to explain how important hunting is to my family in order to put it into a more accurate context.



The other thing that occurred to me about Tawnia is that i've been cooking at least 2 meals a day. With the exception of a couple, they've all been incredibly good so she's eaten quite a bit... She normally eats like, one real "meal" a day and a half dozen more mini-meals that are more like snacks... perhaps that's also been a factor. But in order for me to be successful i knew that i would have to cook instead of falling into a habit of easy (read boring) meals every day...



Another thing that has occurred to me since i've started this thread. My 2 mo old daughter. I have serious concerns about meat and dairy in how they affect the development of children, particularly females and their hormone balances... food for thought indeed.



*edit* to clarify, i'm strongly considering continuing my present diet in which there is no "meat"... meaning giving up hunting forever. I'm sure for a lot of you it just seems like the decent thing to do, but telling the family "sorry, i won't be at the cabin next year for hunting camp" will not go over well and will not be an easy thing to do...
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#14 Old 08-17-2005, 05:19 PM
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Antiacus, I was going to burn your house down until you wrote that last bit. No, I'm just kidding.



Just as it's very difficult for a long-time veggie to understand the meat-eating POV, the reverse also seems to be true. I commend you for making choices that you think best reflect what you believe is right in the world. It's quite a transition but for what it's worth I think you're doing a great thing.



My b/f was a hardcore meat-eater and hunting supporter and I've since relentlessly ground him down to free-range eggs . Actually, all it really took was him seeing [as you have] how good you feel physically, coupled with the knowledge that veg*nism is a compassionate, sustainable choice. Not to mention the SENSATIONAL food. Go take a look at the recipes here when you have a chance.



Best of luck!
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#15 Old 08-17-2005, 05:22 PM
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You do realize, however, that the title of this board is "VEGGIE" Booards? Meaning that people here are most likely going to support those who are vegetarian, vegan, or those who are really trying to be. (Not trying to be argumentative) but it doesn't sound like you are interested in those catagories. My question, I guess, is: What exactly are you looking for, from VB?



What am i looking for? I guess i was just sounding off... Also looking for some other perspectives, maybe someone who has a similar background, whatever. Considering where I am and what i'm doing, i can't think of a more appropriate board... truth be told, i found a different vegan forum but passed it over because it was basically hysterical and rabid politics...



*edit* Thanks Brahmacharya...
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#16 Old 08-17-2005, 05:48 PM
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Are you buying leather and wool with no plans to change your household products if they've been tested on animals or contain animal ingredients?



Do a little research and don't call yourself something if you don't know what it is.



A better way to put it is "I have the goal of becoming vegan." What club are you trying to get into anyway? (*calls the bouncer*)



Quote:
Originally Posted by antiacus View Post

Well, truth be told, in the last month i've had 2 tuna salad pita pockets, so i don't think it's affected the results of my little expiriment to any appreciable degree.



If i'm vegan with the exception of eggs and fish i'm not going to feel somehow left out because i'm not in the club. That's not the reason i'm doing this. I'm doing it because i want to be healthier and feel better.



It's easier to describe my diet as "vegan w/exception of eggs & fish" than to list everything i do or don't eat...

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#17 Old 08-17-2005, 05:56 PM
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Okay.... my canines grew there for a minute.



Congratulations on exploring a more vegetarian diet. For whatever reason you're doing it, you can improve your own health as well as the health of the planet. If everyone stopped eating meat, there would be more nature and less farmland for us all to enjoy.



Let us know how it goes.
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#18 Old 08-17-2005, 07:27 PM
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Well, I was never a hunter myself but it's a big thing in my family as a means of male bonding. If you're stopping, great, I applaud your decision. But losing the social interaction can be tough so you might consider taking your family on a kayaking trip instead (it's like canoeing but with a lot less "are you trying to run us aground!?") It's nature, exercise, and away from work.



You don't need to give up the things about the sport that you enjoy. If you like tracking the deer you can do that all year 'round, and if you like shooting moving targets, paintball comes highly recommended.



I applaud your consideration and hope you're happy with whatever you choose.
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#19 Old 08-17-2005, 07:50 PM
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Hi Antiacus



I'll keep this short as I am sure you have already had more than an earfull



First congratulations on looking into a healthier diet Semantics aside.



I'd suggest you still go with your family so as not to exclude yourself, but when they are off hunting go for a bushwalk etc yourself and maybe see who would like to come along or go alone. You can then still spend quality time with the family, but not hunt.



People here are passionate about veg*nism, but you are welcome.
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#20 Old 08-17-2005, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by antiacus View Post

But in order for me to be successful i knew that i would have to cook instead of falling into a habit of easy (read boring) meals every day...



Easy meals have to be boring? Really? Why was I not informed??? I've been making interesting, exciting easy meals for a while now! Best part of my day!!

Go take a look at the Recipe Submissions section of the board for some really easy tasty meals. It might help with your "teetering"



Good luck.
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#21 Old 08-17-2005, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by antiacus View Post

Hi, i'm eating vegetarian (actually vegan w/exception of fish & eggs). I'm doing this on a trial basis for now. The good news is, I started by telling a buddy that i would try it for two weeks, just to see if what he said was true. He made all kinds of wild claims like i would have tons of energy and feel great etc... It's been a month now and everything he's said is coming true although i'm not sure if it's due to the subtraction of meat from my diet or the addition of so many fruits and vegetables...



Anyway, i have a little bit of a leg up on most would-be vegetarians because i was raised in an Adventist family and we were lacto-ovo vegetarians for about 10 years (for me age 5-15). The other advantage i have is that i love to cook and i think that makes a huge difference in avoiding fast-food, getting in a rut eating the same things etc...



On the downside: While i've lost about 8 pounds in the last month, my wife has gained a couple because she's eating too many carbs & not enough protein... she's already saying she wants to go back to eating dairy so she can have her cottage cheese, yoghurt, real milk on her cereal etc...



Further on the downside, i'm a hunter (yes i track down living things, murder them and as was so well put by another poster when i was browsing the forum, i eat their rotting flesh). Only i don't quite see it that way. Hunting season is coming in 3 months. Whatever your ethical objections to hunting, it's time i get to spend with the family, it's time spent away from work, in nature, getting excersize, it's an incredible source of (venison) lean, hormone/steroid/antibiotic free organic meat... I realize this makes me an evil murderer in many of your eyes, but i've heard every argument pro and con and i've come to my own conclusions (i won't try to convince you i'm right). This is huge for me to say the least. I may be able to put this issue off for another year though, since the unit we hunt near our cabin is a lottery draw and we didn't get drawn this year. (although i'm sure i'll be asked to do some local hunts here near the coast).



The other issues: I like steak. There is a butcher about 10 miles from my home that gets grass-fed buffalo from eastern Oregon. It's actually pretty good once you learn how to cook it (most people over-cook it because it cooks faster than corn-fattened beef).



Anyway, this is a tough decision for me. I definitely feel good, and it's true that i have more energy and i've certainly lost some un-needed weight... but i could very easily say screw it, and eat only game-meat or organic/grass-fed meat and still be head and shoulders above my previous diet...



Anyway, thanks for listening, and please don't sick peta on me or burn my house down.

-Antiacus







Rule #1: Not all of us are pro-peta and I just had a Rule # 2, but I forgot it...wait....oh, yeah! Rule #2: Burning down houses is mean and if you look at posts around here (no general location, thread, section), you'll see that most of us like our quiet, peaceful little corners.



Good luck and have a nice day
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#22 Old 08-18-2005, 12:15 AM
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Congratulations on working towards a diet that is more healthful for you and for the planet and for the animals involved. You defintely do have a lot to decide and if I were you, I'd work towards clarifying my reasons for doing so. Health? Compassion? Environmentalism? Educate yourself, too. What you learn will help you stick to whatever choice you make.



Good luck and let us know how it goes!



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#23 Old 08-18-2005, 12:28 AM
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Hi, and welcome! Um, I definately don't agree with your hunting. I think hunting sucks. I don't think you would find it fun if a murdrerous family was lurking outside to watch until you're unaware and go into your house to kill you and your wife because it was fun and a way to spend time together.... Either way, meat, organic or not, isn't good for you. It's full of cholesterol and all kinds of crap. I would suggest for you to do research on your own, outside of this board and make a choice for yourself.
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#24 Old 08-18-2005, 06:59 AM
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1. if you'd like a name for yourself, try "transitioning to vegetarianism and still consuming fish and eggs, but not dairy." this is probably a more accurate description.



2. the raising vegetarian kid's section of this board should be able to help you with the information you need in regards to your daughter.



3. I think i can help you out with the family thing:



Quote:
Originally Posted by antiacus View Post

*edit* to clarify, i'm strongly considering continuing my present diet in which there is no "meat"... meaning giving up hunting forever. I'm sure for a lot of you it just seems like the decent thing to do, but telling the family "sorry, i won't be at the cabin next year for hunting camp" will not go over well and will not be an easy thing to do...



If you don't want to hunt, you don't have to hunt. THis doesn't mean that you don't have to go and hang out with family at the cabin. I have many friends who come from hunting families, who are not vegetarian and do not hunt themselves. Yet, they still go to the cabin with the family because it's the family event that's important, not the hunting.



to give an example, i grew up in a really sexist area for a while. I would go with a girlfriend to her family's 'deer camp' when they went deer hunting. I assumed that both men and women hunted. Yet, in this family, only men hunted. Yet, the whole family (which was some 50 people) would get together and at least 1/2 of the people at the camp weren't hunting at all. Now, some of them may have been processing, but the younger ones--like my friend--were just hanging around. Girls who were 10-12 would just hang out around the camp, in the stream, etc, and usually bring a friend. Boys of the same age were out hunting. It seems to me, then, that there's no requirement to hunt to go to the cabin with family.



also, i have a number of friends who are hunters. i have 'gone hunting' with them, but not once killed an animal. we enjoy each other's company and we enjoy wandering around in the outdoors together. I have also been fishing a number of times, and not once fished. So, it's possible to go out and be with people while not participating in the activity fully.



So, there's an option for you.
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#25 Old 08-18-2005, 08:43 AM
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Just got home from work... Man, crazy night for a weeknight, was it a full moon? Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for your insights & suggestions... and off to bed, another 14hr shift tomorrow...err today, whatever...



Anyway, thanks for the thoughts.



-Antiacus
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#26 Old 08-18-2005, 09:06 AM
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PETA folks are whacko IMO.



But anyway, do you have any idea how long it takes for beef to leave your body? Months! Do you have any idea what it's doing while it's in your body? Rotting! What is it you like about steak? The taste???? And if that's all, is it really worth it?
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#27 Old 08-18-2005, 09:38 AM
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PETA folks are whacko IMO.



But anyway, do you have any idea how long it takes for beef to leave your body? Months! Do you have any idea what it's doing while it's in your body? Rotting! What is it you like about steak? The taste???? And if that's all, is it really worth it?





I think the meat spending three decades in your body is a myth. Meat takes about as long as any other food.
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#28 Old 08-18-2005, 09:42 AM
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Not according to Oprah. Months, not years. And Oprah's never wrong.
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#29 Old 08-18-2005, 12:05 PM
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AND, supposedly, John Wayne had 44 lbs of left-overs in his colon/intestines/stomach when he died, probably mostly from meat.
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#30 Old 08-18-2005, 12:58 PM
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AND, supposedly, John Wayne had 44 lbs of left-overs in his colon/intestines/stomach when he died, probably mostly from meat.



http://www.snopes.com/toxins/fecal.htm
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