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#1 Old 02-10-2016, 07:00 AM
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Why meat is not good?

Hello everyone,

As a vegan, many times people ask me why I don't eat meat and they claim that meat is necessary in the human diet, and that's what even doctors or nutritionists are telling them.

I know the internet is full of claims and studies showing why the meat is not good. But I would like to know the best arguments against meat.
If anyone knows such arguments, for each type of meat, I would be thankful for posting them.

Thanks
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#2 Old 02-10-2016, 07:05 AM
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Here is mine for all meat. It causes suffering.

If people want to tell me it's unhealthy to not eat meat I'd ask why. I'd shoot them down easily at that point because it's not true.
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#3 Old 02-10-2016, 07:50 AM
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Meat isn't good because it's unethical. Not all meat is necessarily unhealthy, although processed meats have been definitively named as carcinogenic by the World Health Organisation (and "red" meats like beef and pork have been classified as potentially carcinogenic.)
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#4 Old 02-10-2016, 09:32 AM
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What road do you want this to take - An ethical/moral road or purely health reasons? There is a clear line between the two, but meat can sometimes creep over into the physically healthy category, but NEVER ethically.
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#5 Old 02-10-2016, 10:27 AM
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So Dietary cholesterol, arachnodonic acid, Acid blood systems, venus thrombosis, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, heart disease, althimers disease, obesity, cancer, osteoporosis (frankly, nearly every disease has some sort of connection to eating meat).

It causes ecological/environmental damage (clearing forests for range land, etc.), it contributes to water-well contamination, (feed lots near wells).

And it is extremely immoral and unethical.
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#6 Old 02-10-2016, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mrgrimm View Post
What road do you want this to take - An ethical/moral road or purely health reasons? There is a clear line between the two, but meat can sometimes creep over into the physically healthy category, but NEVER ethically.
I need the physically healthy category, since my "audience" doesn't even know that "ethics" means
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#7 Old 02-10-2016, 03:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Gita View Post
So Dietary cholesterol, arachnodonic acid, Acid blood systems, venus thrombosis, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, heart disease, althimers disease, obesity, cancer, osteoporosis (frankly, nearly every disease has some sort of connection to eating meat).

It causes ecological/environmental damage (clearing forests for range land, etc.), it contributes to water-well contamination, (feed lots near wells).

And it is extremely immoral and unethical.
Thanks, I knew that already, however, do you have some links to scientific studies about those negative effects?
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#8 Old 02-10-2016, 03:36 PM
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Here is mine for all meat. It causes suffering.

If people want to tell me it's unhealthy to not eat meat I'd ask why. I'd shoot them down easily at that point because it's not true.
But USDA recommends us to eat meat:
"Such foods contribute important nutrients, such as protein, calcium, iron, and zinc" - http://www.dummies.com/how-to/conten...your-diet.html
So, by not eating meat, we reduce our chances to be healthy. And then it's unhealthy not to eat meat.
After all, we can trust the government in their dietary advice, because they rely on science, isn't it?

By the way, is there a place where the USDA or other such authorities store their yearly recommendations? For example, if one wants to consult the USDA (or say it's UK counterpart) recommendations in the year 2005, to see how much meat USDA was recommending at that point in time, where they have to go?
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#9 Old 02-10-2016, 04:02 PM
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#10 Old 02-10-2016, 04:09 PM
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Hey, you dismissed every resource given in the raw food thread, but now you're worried because the USDA endorses meat?

It's hardly about whether eating meat is healthy or not, it's that plant based diets can be healthy without harm.

People know full well the crap in hot dogs, deli meats, fast foods- they still eat them

Who is your audience?
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#11 Old 02-10-2016, 04:14 PM
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#12 Old 02-10-2016, 05:04 PM
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In my experience, it's a waste of time to argue with people who are defending meat-eating. Argumentative people are generally not interested in changing their mind, no matter what evidence is shown to them.

It would be better to dedicate yourself to researching the peer-reviewed studies on the benefits of vegetarianism, and then to educate those who are interested in being vegetarian.
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_________

Specific recommendations for a healthy diet include: eating more fruit, vegetables, legumes, nuts and grains; cutting down on salt, sugar and fats. It is also advisable to choose unsaturated fats, instead of saturated fats and towards the elimination of trans-fatty acids."
- United Nations' World Health Organization
http://www.who.int/topics/diet/en/

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#13 Old 02-11-2016, 01:38 AM
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Originally Posted by odizzido View Post
Here is mine for all meat. It causes suffering.

If people want to tell me it's unhealthy to not eat meat I'd ask why. I'd shoot them down easily at that point because it's not true.

Based on what I've heard, Vitamin B12 tends to be lower in non meat eaters. That could be one of the things, but it's just what I've heard. Happy Healthy Vegan takes a supplement due to this concept.
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#14 Old 02-11-2016, 02:14 AM
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B12 is a bacteria and supplements are easy and cheap. Many foods are fortified, including some cereals and most non dairy milks. I take a sublingual every couple days
Factory farm animals are fed b12 supplemented grains as their food as they are not pastuered.

http://nutritionfacts.org/?s=b12
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#15 Old 02-11-2016, 02:37 AM
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Originally Posted by silva View Post
Hey, you dismissed every resource given in the raw food thread, but now you're worried because the USDA endorses meat?
Of course, because USDA relies on science. Or isn't it?
I want to give the most reliable arguments/advice to the people I talk with.

Quote:
It's hardly about whether eating meat is healthy or not, it's that plant based diets can be healthy without harm.

People know full well the crap in hot dogs, deli meats, fast foods- they still eat them

Who is your audience?
Co-workers, friends, friends of friends, etc.
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#16 Old 02-11-2016, 02:41 AM
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In my experience, it's a waste of time to argue with people who are defending meat-eating. Argumentative people are generally not interested in changing their mind, no matter what evidence is shown to them.

It would be better to dedicate yourself to researching the peer-reviewed studies on the benefits of vegetarianism, and then to educate those who are interested in being vegetarian.
How do you reconcile those studies with the people in the scientific community (who base their claims on peer reviewed studies) telling us that we actually need to eat meat?
Those two stances are conflicting. They can't be both true.
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#17 Old 02-11-2016, 02:45 AM
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Vitamin B12 is not an issue just for plant eaters. Many omnivores are also deficient in vitamin B12 due to absorption/malabsorption issues. I work in the medical field and there are dozens of omnivores every day coming in to get B12 shots because they can not absorb it through food. Also, in many northern countries, people are vitamin D deficient in winter because it is nearly impossible to get it from the sun at certain times of year, and it is very hard to get enough of it from food, omnivore or not. So people supplement. Arguing that a vegan diet is inferior because it lacks B12 is like arguing that living in Minnesota is inferior to living in Florida because we lack enough sunlight in winter.

Here are some articles that discuss negative impacts of meat consumption:

http://waterfootprint.org/media/down...Meat-Dairy.pdf

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1240343/

http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/arti...urcetype=HWCIT

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01830260
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#18 Old 02-11-2016, 03:01 AM
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My usual answer: I have never heard a convincing reason to eat meat.
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#19 Old 02-11-2016, 03:09 AM
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Originally Posted by spaveg View Post
How do you reconcile those studies with the people in the scientific community (who base their claims on peer reviewed studies) telling us that we actually need to eat meat?
Those two stances are conflicting. They can't be both true.
Nobody in the scientific community believes that we need to eat meat. Every major health organization in the world agrees that a vegetarian diet can be as healthy as a diet containing animal products. This doesn't mean that all meat is inherently unhealthy. It is still a source of protein, iron, and zinc-- it just isn't the only source. Vegetarian diets tend to be healthier because vegetarians eat a lot of fruits and veggies, not because of the absence of meat. That said, CERTAIN types of meat have been linked to cancer and heart disease: processed meats like bacon and salami, red meats like beef and pork. It would be difficult to make a purely health-based argument against someone who occasionally eats fish or turkey along with a variety of plant foods, which is why we're telling you to argue ethics. Meat is bad because it's literally the corpse of a once-sentient creature, and that's reason enough not to eat it.

Honestly, it feels like you're trying to turn this into another discussion about how science is wrong. You'll never win that argument. Something isn't wrong just because it isn't what you want to hear.
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#20 Old 02-11-2016, 04:01 AM
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Governments make recommendations not just on what is healthy, but what they think they can convince people to do. If you really want to know what is best you have to look at the studies yourself.
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#21 Old 02-12-2016, 06:25 AM
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(My usual answer: I have never heard a convincing reason to eat meat.)
Thanks, but that's based on your common sense and your own logic.
And I understood that it's not good to rely on them.
So I was asking for scientific arguments.
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#22 Old 02-12-2016, 06:27 AM
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Thanks, but that's based on your common sense and your own logic.
And I understood that it's not good to rely on them.
So I was asking for scientific arguments.
We've provided them.
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#23 Old 02-12-2016, 06:28 AM
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Governments make recommendations not just on what is healthy, but what they think they can convince people to do. If you really want to know what is best you have to look at the studies yourself.
Then I'm glad I'm not the only "conspiracy theorist" around
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#24 Old 02-12-2016, 06:29 AM
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Nobody in the scientific community believes that we need to eat meat.
Sorry but I don't think that's true:
What 6 Australian scientists say about 'processed meat causes cancer' claims - http://www.businessinsider.com.au/wh...claims-2015-10
They are scientists, they belong to the scientific community.
Also I remember in 1998 a family friend had cancer and the doctor told her not to give up eating meat because meat is important. She died in a few years.
And if what you said it's true, then why the USDA is not clearly stating that "nobody in the scientific community believes that we need to eat meat"? Just to make sure the public better understands how things work.

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Every major health organization in the world agrees that a vegetarian diet can be as healthy as a diet containing animal products.
Then why the USDA is not saying that? It relies on science.
Every 5 years, the Departments charter a committee of 13 nutrition experts to review the peer-reviewed, published science on diet and health and develop a report of its recommendations for the next edition of the Guidelines. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center..._for_Americans

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This doesn't mean that all meat is inherently unhealthy. It is still a source of protein, iron, and zinc-- it just isn't the only source.
Does that imply that, as a vegan, I have to eat over-sized meals in order to replace the nutrients I am losing by not eating meat?

Quote:
Vegetarian diets tend to be healthier because vegetarians eat a lot of fruits and veggies, not because of the absence of meat.
Then why the USDA is not saying that? It relies on science.

Quote:
That said, CERTAIN types of meat have been linked to cancer and heart disease: processed meats like bacon and salami, red meats like beef and pork.
Quote:
Not all meat is necessarily unhealthy, although processed meats have been definitively named as carcinogenic by the World Health Organisation (and "red" meats like beef and pork have been classified as potentially carcinogenic.)
Is the USDA actually saying that too? If not, then why?

Quote:
Honestly, it feels like you're trying to turn this into another discussion about how science is wrong. You'll never win that argument. Something isn't wrong just because it isn't what you want to hear.
Honestly, I would like to open a thread about how reliable the nutrition science is, but before getting there, I was thinking it is better to understand a bit the situation about meat.


Meanwhile I've found the USDA historical recommendations here: http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/dietary-gui...ous-guidelines
But that's just since 1980. Anyone knows if older recommendations can be found over the internet?

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#25 Old 02-12-2016, 06:39 AM
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#26 Old 02-12-2016, 07:24 AM
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Originally Posted by no whey jose View Post
We've provided them.
Thanks, and then I was asking how do you reconcile two conflicting views, both relying on science. Maybe I'm missing something, but I din't see anyone trying to address that issue.

I know I'm a prick but one day someone will ask these things anyways. So better sooner than later. Might be an irritating discussion but things will remain well written for anyone else interested in the topic or having the same doubts.

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#27 Old 02-12-2016, 07:44 AM
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Thanks, and then I was asking how do you reconcile two conflicting views, both relying on science. Maybe I'm missing something, but I din't see anyone trying to address that issue.

I know I'm a prick but one day someone will ask these things anyways. So better sooner than later. Might be an irritating discussion but things will remain well written for anyone else interested in the topic or having the same doubts.
You should always ask questions. That's how we all learn. You learn something new, and we learn more about the topic by being able to explain it. You never truly know a subject until you can explain it well.

I don't claim to know this subject well, so make what you will of my statements.

First, the link you provided looks pretty old, as it's referring to the food pyramid. Try to research the agency website rather than the general web. The food pyramid has been replaced by "MyPlate". It no longer recommends 2-3 servings of meat alone (they actually never really did say meat alone, it's always included other sources of protein), rather it incorporates "protein" for the plate. In the link you provided, it clearly lists meat substitutes.

You can read more about it here: http://www.choosemyplate.gov/

Also, they provide vegetarian protein options here: http://www.choosemyplate.gov/protein-foods-vegetarian

Second, you can't cherry-pick your quotes from articles. That's the easiest way for you to lose credibility. The quote you provided from the dummies.com site is way, way out of context. If you read it in context, you'd know that the preceding sentence mentioned all sources of protein, not just meat. The entire quote is below:

Quote:
The USDA Food Pyramid recommends that you include 2-3 servings of meat, poultry, eggs dried beans or nuts in your daily diet. Such foods contribute important nutrients, such as protein, calcium, iron, and zinc.
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#28 Old 02-12-2016, 09:18 AM
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How do you reconcile those studies with the people in the scientific community (who base their claims on peer reviewed studies) telling us that we actually need to eat meat?
Those two stances are conflicting. They can't be both true.
Oh, what peer reviewed studies tell us that we actually need to eat meat? Links, please.
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#29 Old 02-12-2016, 09:24 AM
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Sorry but I don't think that's true:
What 6 Australian scientists say about 'processed meat causes cancer' claims - http://www.businessinsider.com.au/wh...claims-2015-10
They are scientists, they belong to the scientific community.
I don't understand. None of those scientists says anything about meat being a necessary part of a healthy diet. They reiterate the WHO's claims about red and processed meats being linked to cancer and suggest a moderate reduction in the consumption of said meats. On an individual level, eating a small amount of meat isn't going to have a significant negative effect on a person's health, so this is a reasonable suggestion. This is all in line with what we've been telling you. Where do you see a contradiction?

Even if you were to find a handful of fringe scientists or medical professionals who claim that the consumption of meat is necessary for one's health (and it wouldn't surprise me if you did, since educated people are just as capable of having strange ideas as anyone else), this wouldn't be of any relevance to this conversation because the scientific consensus-- which is to say what MOST scientists believe, what has been borne out by numerous studies and experiments-- is that vegetarian diets are as healthy as those containing meat. To verify this for yourself, just check the statements on vegetarian diets from any major health organization.

Quote:
Also I remember in 1998 a family friend had cancer and the doctor told her not to give up eating meat because meat is important. She died in a few years.
Scientific consensus isn't the same as "a doctor I knew said something once," and general practitioners aren't experts in nutrition, receive very little training in nutrition, and are not required to stay up to date on the latest nutritional research.

Quote:
And if what you said it's true, then why the USDA is not clearly stating that "nobody in the scientific community believes that we need to eat meat"? Just to make sure the public better understands how things work.
By virtue of promoting vegetarian diets, the USDA does say that. If it were believed that meat is necessary for human health, then the USDA would not offer resources for those seeking to try vegetarianism, which they do on their website: https://fnic.nal.usda.gov/lifecycle-...rian-nutrition

Once again, the fact that a diet without meat is universally regarded as healthy by scientists and nutrition experts DOES NOT MEAN that a diet containing meat is necessarily regarded as unhealthy. There are many ways to eat healthily and some of those ways involve eating animal products. Animal products are not necessarily unhealthy. A diet which contains meat is not necessarily unhealthy-- which isn't the same as saying that meat is a necessary part of a healthy diet. Do you see the distinction?

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Does that imply that, as a vegan, I have to eat over-sized meals in order to replace the nutrients I am losing by not eating meat?
I don't understand where this question comes from. Can you clarify what you mean?
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#30 Old 02-12-2016, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by spaveg View Post
Sorry but I don't think that's true:
What 6 Australian scientists say about 'processed meat causes cancer' claims - http://www.businessinsider.com.au/wh...claims-2015-10
They are scientists, they belong to the scientific community.
Also I remember in 1998 a family friend had cancer and the doctor told her not to give up eating meat because meat is important. She died in a few years.
And if what you said it's true, then why the USDA is not clearly stating that "nobody in the scientific community believes that we need to eat meat"? Just to make sure the public better understands how things work.

Then why the USDA is not saying that? It relies on science.
Every 5 years, the Departments charter a committee of 13 nutrition experts to review the peer-reviewed, published science on diet and health and develop a report of its recommendations for the next edition of the Guidelines. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Center..._for_Americans

Does that imply that, as a vegan, I have to eat over-sized meals in order to replace the nutrients I am losing by not eating meat?

Then why the USDA is not saying that? It relies on science.



Is the USDA actually saying that too? If not, then why?

Honestly, I would like to open a thread about how reliable the nutrition science is, but before getting there, I was thinking it is better to understand a bit the situation about meat.


Meanwhile I've found the USDA historical recommendations here: http://www.cnpp.usda.gov/dietary-gui...ous-guidelines
But that's just since 1980. Anyone knows if older recommendations can be found over the internet?
If you click this link, you wil find studies referenced. Wanna know why the USDA doesn't attack the meat industry? Follow the money, as usual....


http://qz.com/523255/the-us-meat-ind...american-diet/
"Your doctor might tell you to eat fewer burgers and steak sandwiches, but thanks to the exceptional lobbying skills of the American meat industry, the US government probably never will.

Rejecting the advice of their own expert panel, the US Department of Agriculture (USDA) and the US Department of Health & Human Services (HHS) announced this month that the latest edition of the Dietary Guidelines for Americans will not include considerations of environmental sustainability. Had they decided otherwise, they likely would have recommended that people lower their intake of meat, the production of which is widely recognized as a major contributor to climate change.

Health advocates are still hoping that the final guidelines, to be unveiled later this year, will include a directive to eat less red and processed meats, based on nutrition and health concerns alone. But if history is any indication, that hope is likely to go unfulfilled.
The meat industry has influenced the dietary guidelines for decades

The size of the US meat industry is immense. Beef alone is a $95 billion-a-year business, according to the USDA. And the North American Meat Institute (NAMI) estimates that, in total, the meat industry contributes about $894 billion to the US economy.

That size translates into political influence: In 2014, the industry spent approximately $10.8 million in contributions to political campaigns, and another $6.9 million directly on lobbying the federal government (calculated by combining totals for the meat processing and products and livestock sectors, as reported by the Center for Responsive Politics’ OpenSecrets website).

While the USDA is tasked with regulating the meat industry, it also has a role in promoting it. This tension plays out every time the US government wants to give out dietary advice—and the results generally wind up favoring the industry.

The pattern traces back to at least 1977, when Congress—a no less conflicted institution when it comes to coziness with the meat industry—had a more prominent role in setting nutrition guidelines. That year, a Senate committee report recommended that Americans decrease consumption of meat, eggs and other foods high in fat. This did not sit well with producers in those industries, who made their displeasure known at a hearing on the guidelines. As shown in the below exchange between the representative from the American National Cattlemen’s Association and senator Bob Dole of Kansas, the organization objected to a recommendation to decrease consumption of any of its products, even if paired with a recommendation to increase consumption of other ones."
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