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#1 Old 09-24-2015, 12:56 PM
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Ethical dairy and eggs

When I say "ethical dairy and eggs" I don't mean the factories that proclaim they use ethical and humane ways of getting the produce. I mean from our grandparents' hen and cows.
Because I thought about it and what is the reason that vegans don't eat eggs and dairy? Focusing only on the ethical reasons, isn't it because the animals in factories suffer? (This also goes for vegetarians and meat). So where do my grandfather's hen stand? They don't have a farm, just a kind of yard where they keep some hen and turkeys, they have a lot of space, they are not caged or tortured in any way, they just lay eggs and my grandparents collect them each morning. They feed them well and give them water and the animals have a lot of room to run freely, soft places where they can sleep also. (He doesn't have cows, that's why I only spoke about the hen)
So is eating their eggs unethical as well as in the factories? Would you eat those eggs? And if not, why?
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#2 Old 09-24-2015, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Chou View Post
When I say "ethical dairy and eggs" I don't mean the factories that proclaim they use ethical and humane ways of getting the produce. I mean from our grandparents' hen and cows.
Because I thought about it and what is the reason that vegans don't eat eggs and dairy? Focusing only on the ethical reasons, isn't it because the animals in factories suffer? (This also goes for vegetarians and meat). So where do my grandfather's hen stand? They don't have a farm, just a kind of yard where they keep some hen and turkeys, they have a lot of space, they are not caged or tortured in any way, they just lay eggs and my grandparents collect them each morning. They feed them well and give them water and the animals have a lot of room to run freely, soft places where they can sleep also. (He doesn't have cows, that's why I only spoke about the hen)
So is eating their eggs unethical as well as in the factories? Would you eat those eggs? And if not, why?
Yes, I would eat those eggs. I've thought it out the same way you have, and I really wouldn't have any problem consuming dairy products if they were obtained in the way you're describing.

My original, only reason for going vegetarian was the abuse of sentient beings in the meat industry. However, that evolved into more of a Buddhist/Hindu way of looking at it, i.e., that I don't want to eat [or wear or use] anything that once had a soul. So even if cows/lambs/pigs/whatever were raised and treated humanely, even treated like pets, loved and pampered and well-cared for, and humanely slaughtered [is that an oxymoron? ], I still wouldn't want anything to do with using their bodies after they're killed.

But dairy products? If the animals were free to roam, were loved and respected, and were not shipped off to slaughter when their producing days were over, I just wouldn't have a problem with it. At all.
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#3 Old 09-24-2015, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Chou View Post
When I say "ethical dairy and eggs" I don't mean the factories that proclaim they use ethical and humane ways of getting the produce. I mean from our grandparents' hen and cows.
Because I thought about it and what is the reason that vegans don't eat eggs and dairy? Focusing only on the ethical reasons, isn't it because the animals in factories suffer? (This also goes for vegetarians and meat). So where do my grandfather's hen stand? They don't have a farm, just a kind of yard where they keep some hen and turkeys, they have a lot of space, they are not caged or tortured in any way, they just lay eggs and my grandparents collect them each morning. They feed them well and give them water and the animals have a lot of room to run freely, soft places where they can sleep also. (He doesn't have cows, that's why I only spoke about the hen)
So is eating their eggs unethical as well as in the factories? Would you eat those eggs? And if not, why?
Caging a bird so it can't mate and fertilize it's eggs and raise it's young, but to take them and eat them instead? is that ethical?

Caring about our health is caring about our very state of being and future which is a very good thing to be seriously concerned about making the most of.

 

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#4 Old 09-24-2015, 07:45 PM
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Caging a bird so it can't mate and fertilize its eggs and raise its young, but to take them and eat them instead? is that ethical?
The OP said quite clearly that they are NOT caged: "So where do my grandfather's hen stand? They don't have a farm, just a kind of yard where they keep some hen and turkeys, they have a lot of space, they are not caged or tortured in any way, they just lay eggs and my grandparents collect them each morning. They feed them well and give them water and the animals have a lot of room to run freely, soft places where they can sleep also."
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#5 Old 09-24-2015, 09:19 PM
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The OP said quite clearly that they are NOT caged: "So where do my grandfather's hen stand? They don't have a farm, just a kind of yard where they keep some hen and turkeys, they have a lot of space, they are not caged or tortured in any way, they just lay eggs and my grandparents collect them each morning. They feed them well and give them water and the animals have a lot of room to run freely, soft places where they can sleep also."
Are their wings clipped? Is that ethical?

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#6 Old 09-24-2015, 09:20 PM
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For the cow no, I would not consume the milk even if the cow my was best friend ever, because that milk is for their calf. If the cow is not pregnant, no milk simple as that! If she lost her calf, milking her would force her to produce milk when she doesn't need to, so exploitation. That's how I see it anyway.

Concerning the hens, where are they coming from? Were they bought so the grand parents could consume the eggs even if they are super well cared for? If so, it's still animal exploitation in my book. If the hens are rescued hens (so not bought as pets), adopted so they can live in peace and the grand parents pick the discarded eggs, then I think it would be fine, but myself would still not consume because I don't need the cholesterol lol. I would still leave a few eggs for them to eat though, they do that sometimes.

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#7 Old 09-25-2015, 02:59 AM
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I would never exploit any animal and to me, using their eggs does just that, and it is a slippery slope. What was the purpose of keeping the hens? Is it really to love them and appreciate them as birds who do their own thing or is it motivated by the desire to have their eggs? Where were the birds purchased or acquired? Is it supporting the breeding of hens/chickens which is done for their eggs or their bodies for food? Even if I were to keep a hen and love her and care for her as my own child, if I acquire her by buying from a local farmer or breeder I am supporting the animal agricultural food industry on some level. It might be different if I rescued her from a terrible situation, but I would still not consume her eggs because I don't need them to thrive. I want to send the world a clear message that humans do not need to eat eggs to thrive and that the egg and chicken industry (as well as dairy) needs to stop! Animals are sentient beings and they are not a source of food, nor are their body parts or secretions. Birds eat their own eggs as a source of nutrients also. And cows milk is for calves.

Also, veganism did not start as a result of factory farming. It has been around for centuries, long before the industrialization of animal agriculture.
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#8 Old 09-25-2015, 08:46 AM
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Are their wings clipped? Is that ethical?
I never said anything about their wings being clipped. Their wings are not clipped, they're let develop naturally.
Also in the same yard with the hen are some roosters (but I didn't mention them because they don't lay eggs) and turkeys. The yard is pretty big for them, they can run and do whatever they want with their wings (since they cannot fly long distances anyway).

About the purchase questions, I don't know where the original hens came from, they probably bought them, but I know that sometimes they don't eat all the eggs. In a separate yard they have a lot of chickens and they'll transfer them with the other big birds as soon as they grow into adults. I think the hen are let to sit on the eggs in order for them to hatch, but I've also seen my grandmother when I was younger incubating a lot of eggs, so I am not sure about today's chicken.

They keep the hen in order to consume their meat and eggs, indeed. However, the way I saw it is that no matter if I eat their eggs or not, they are still going to be killed. I don't see it as supporting my grandparents to kill the hen (since they are not a factory or a farm, it's just enough produce to sustain a couple of family members) by eating their eggs. I don't eat meat, but the hen are not in any way forced to lay the eggs, nor are they fertilized, they are all natural. Basically, they just lay the eggs naturally and we eat them. At some point my grandparents will kill one or two in order to eat the meat and until then, just the eggs.

I want to shift to veganism at some point, but I wanted some opinions about this situation.
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#9 Old 09-25-2015, 09:14 AM
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Opps double post, see below
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#10 Old 09-25-2015, 09:16 AM
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[QUOTE=LedBoots;3786625]Well, they are killing the chickens to eat, so not vegan at all. And the roosters? They just let them run around the yard and they don't fight? I have never seen mellow roosters who do this. You also said they are breeding chickens and incubating eggs for more? What do they do with these chickens, especially the males, sell them, eat them?

Also, turkeys? For eggs? To eat? So, against the thing.
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#11 Old 09-25-2015, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by Chou View Post
I never said anything about their wings being clipped. Their wings are not clipped, they're let develop naturally.
Also in the same yard with the hen are some roosters (but I didn't mention them because they don't lay eggs) and turkeys. The yard is pretty big for them, they can run and do whatever they want with their wings (since they cannot fly long distances anyway).

About the purchase questions, I don't know where the original hens came from, they probably bought them, but I know that sometimes they don't eat all the eggs. In a separate yard they have a lot of chickens and they'll transfer them with the other big birds as soon as they grow into adults. I think the hen are let to sit on the eggs in order for them to hatch, but I've also seen my grandmother when I was younger incubating a lot of eggs, so I am not sure about today's chicken.

They keep the hen in order to consume their meat and eggs, indeed. However, the way I saw it is that no matter if I eat their eggs or not, they are still going to be killed. I don't see it as supporting my grandparents to kill the hen (since they are not a factory or a farm, it's just enough produce to sustain a couple of family members) by eating their eggs. I don't eat meat, but the hen are not in any way forced to lay the eggs, nor are they fertilized, they are all natural. Basically, they just lay the eggs naturally and we eat them. At some point my grandparents will kill one or two in order to eat the meat and until then, just the eggs.

I want to shift to veganism at some point, but I wanted some opinions about this situation.
Nothing about this situation sounds ethical to me, particularly the bit where they slaughter one or two on occasion. An awfully cavalier approach to murder, don't you think? "Just one or two..."
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#12 Old 09-25-2015, 09:52 AM
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Nothing about this situation sounds ethical to me, particularly the bit where they slaughter one or two on occasion. An awfully cavalier approach to murder, don't you think? "Just one or two..."
Well the ethical part was for the eggs, not for the slaughter. I don't believe there is any ethical slaughter, but someone asked me before if the hen are kept for meat consumption, so I just answered that with additional details.

My question was not about the meat, since I don't eat meat anyway, but about the eggs, since they are not tortured or forced to lay the eggs and they mostly live happily, so are the eggs and only the eggs, obtained ethically? And if so, would you guys eat them if they were obtained like I described them? That was my question.
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#13 Old 09-25-2015, 11:18 AM
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Is there an equal balance of male and females like there would be in nature? Allowed to have cycles when they sit on their fertilized eggs and then spend time raising their children? The only way to not disrupt these natural life cycles is to allow them to go pretty much wild and find their eggs - the ones that are not being sat upon.
I'd guess that they wouldn't like their relations with mates and children to be manipulated at all.

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#14 Old 09-25-2015, 12:18 PM
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If I had known from the get-go that the chickens are killed eventually and/or used for breeding, I would've answered differently. My take on the egg situation was based solely on the concept of having a few chickens, left to roam freely in a comfortable environment, who lay eggs as a matter of fact and whose eggs are picked up and consumed by humans every day.
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#15 Old 09-25-2015, 01:37 PM
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Thank you for your replies. Actually, I wasn't 100% okay with the situation myself, but I wanted to hear more points of view. I do feel better about eating their eggs than the ones from the supermarket, but since I want to go vegan anyway, it's easier and better to just stop eating them completely.
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#16 Old 09-25-2015, 05:05 PM
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It's the same with dairy cows that are treated well, it is better in comparison to the norm but it isn't really very possible to be fully truly ethical about it. You'll probably notice the beneficial difference after changing to a plant based diet. Animal products are second-hand nutrition (plants eaten and digested by animals) and are animal energies and not as clean and pure as plant energies. That's good to hear that you are that sensitive to notice that the birds could be going through some unhappiness even in that fairly descent situation.

Caring about our health is caring about our very state of being and future which is a very good thing to be seriously concerned about making the most of.

 

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