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-   -   How far would you go if you only had meat, without eating them? (https://www.veggieboards.com/forum/11-vegetarian-support-forum/186745-how-far-would-you-go-if-you-only-had-meat-without-eating-them.html)

SilverCat 08-08-2015 01:28 AM

How far would you go if you only had meat, without eating them?
 
AND how far SHOULD you GO?

Be honest.

Naturebound 08-08-2015 03:32 AM

I can't think of a single situation where only meat would be available to me. And if I were stranded on a deserted island somewhere it would be easier to eat foliage than hunt down an animal with my bare hands, skin it, take off the hair, cook the meat (and find the fuel to do this) etc. Didn't we have a very similar thread to this just recently?

no whey jose 08-08-2015 03:39 AM

I don't understand what you're asking. There will never be a situation where any of us only have meat to eat. If we're talking about a plane crash survival scenario where I would be forced to eat human corpses, I might do that-- but that in no way justifies cannibalism in my everyday life, now does it?

@rno 08-08-2015 06:28 AM

Stupid question (from omnivores?).

Docbanana 08-08-2015 06:45 AM

I never understood the whole deserted island scenario. Where is this ecosystem that is teeming with animal life but does not support plant life?? Does such a place exist? Maybe at the North Pole, or at the top of a snow capped mountain, or in the driest part of the desert there is a dearth of plant life... But this is supposedly an island, where I landed while sailing at sea level...in water (not desert)....that isn't frozen over. So clearly not that climate.

Furthermore, if there are no plants, how are the animals living?? Are they seriously all carnivores? No herbivore at the bottom of the food chain? What kind of animal should I eat exactly, there are no rabbits, squirrels, deer on a plantless island. Very few species of birds could live, just the hawks and other birds of prey....but hawks eat small herbivore critters so I imagine they won't hunt much on my island. If the aquatic plant life also disrupted here, then there is the same issue. No plants or little plant-eaters to feed the fish that would be edible to me, so they won't be hanging around long enough for me to figure out how to spear them.

If I landed on this messed up island, I think dinner should be the least of my worries. I am "curvy" enough to live off stored body fat for weeks while I wait for rescue. My more pressing concern will be how to make it through a single day in this godforsaken plantless climate without dying of heat stroke, dehydration, or frostbite (depending on the climate type).

And figuring out how to not BECOME dinner. I'm the sole herbivore on an island of hungry carnivores!!!

cuberail 08-08-2015 07:20 AM

if you were stranded on a desert island and all you had to eat was coconuts, would you eat a coconut?

Dogma 08-08-2015 07:27 AM

Quote:

How far would you go if you only had meat, without eating them?
In the hyper-unlikely hypothetical scenario in which the only thing to eat was a deer... that would depend:

If it was dead: Maybe. I understand that veganism under any and all circumstances is stupid since eating a dead deer does not contribute to the exploitation of deer any more than collecting dirt for a potted plant contributes to the exploitation of earthworms. But having never done so in my whole life and knowing what it once was, I'm not sure I could.

It would also depend of the context of the deer's death. If someone had specifically killed it so to see if I would eat it, for example, I would refuse on the grounds of enablement.

If it was alive: No. I'm not so callously self-important as to dispose an innocent deer's life to extend my own. I would starve and die.

Now, in the hyper-unlikely hypothetical scenario in which that deer was trying to eat me...

Quote:

Be honest.
Honestly... I think you coming at this the wrong way, SilverCat. You've made several threads across the forums with needling questions as if you're an omni in disguise ready to jump out and go "Aha!" if we say something obviously fallible.

You can try to needle me all day and I'll still give you straight answers, but I don't think you're making friends this way.


Just sayin'.

Dogma 08-08-2015 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by no whey jose
There will never be a situation where any of us only have meat to eat.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docbanana
I never understood the whole deserted island scenario. Where is this ecosystem that is teeming with animal life but does not support plant life?? Does such a place exist?

Those answers are fallacious. If vegetarianism were imposed purely as a practical measure then the argument would end there, however vegetarianism from a moral standpoint asserts that one is vegetarian by principle which by extension asserts firm cut-and-dry lines in the sand. You should be able to answer yes or no regardless of the realism of the question.

Conversely the question is also fallacious because it's rhetorical. If vegetarianism operates by principle, than the question exists to tease vegetarians into admitting that they might discard their principles under certain circumstances.

At best, SilverCat is poorly structuring their question, at worst, they are attempting to undermine the entire point of the forum.

I suggest closing this thread unless SilverCat can somehow redeem it.

Kiwibird08 08-08-2015 07:52 AM

I suppose in a hypothetical life or death scenario, yes I would eat meat. I suppose I would draw the line at eating my husband, any (future) children or my bird because I feel if said hypothetical scenario came to that point, I would likely die soon anyways and would rather take my own life than consume my family to live a few more days/weeks whatever.

But the fact of the matter is, there is no real-life scenario I could ever imagine being in where consuming flesh would be necessary for any reason. Even in a SHTF scenario, I would avoid hunting or fishing unless as an absolute last resort measure in favor of foraging for plant-based foods in nature and/or (depending on scenario) attempt to grow my own. After all these years, meat would very likely make me sick and weaker instead of helping me go on so it wouldn't be my first choice. In a SHTF scenario, I may eat eggs if I came across them though, but it would also not be the first source of nutrition I'd go for either as wild eggs would likely contain a partially developed fetus and not really be the most edible thing in the world (for a human, maybe a snake would find it a tasty treat). Really as I go over post-apocolyptic scenarios, plants really seem like a better option all around leaving animal based sources of "nutrition" at the very bottom of the things to consume.

SilverCat 08-08-2015 07:54 AM

I never said this was real. It is completely hypothetical. Why so serious?

Didn't know this was going offend some people. So sorry.

SilverCat 08-08-2015 07:56 AM

I do not know why people think of cannibalism. I certainly did not ask that.

Dogma 08-08-2015 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverCat (Post 3741369)
I do not know why people think of cannibalism. I certainly did not ask that.

It's obviously a parallel topic, SilverCat, when you ask what lines people will cross if their lives depend on it.

Some people don't draw lines when it comes to their personal safety and still others won't even consider the question. What you're asking for is to know each person's individual boundaries of comfort. It doesn't bother me, but it's bound to rile others.

I wouldn't confront you on it if you hadn't already made many similar threads like "What if it has 5% fish in it?".

Kiwibird08 08-08-2015 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverCat (Post 3741369)
I do not know why people think of cannibalism. I certainly did not ask that.

Flesh is flesh, does it really matter if it's the flesh of a cow or the flesh of a human, especially in a hypothetical life or death survival scenario? Humans are animals after all, and our flesh is still, by definition, no different than any other kind of meat (the flesh of an animal). You didn't specify which hypothetical scenario would someone eat meat in. One could reasonable think of a few where human flesh was the only possible source of nutrition (no animals or plants available) and state whether or not they would draw the line there. You asked the question....

SilverCat 08-08-2015 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogma (Post 3741401)
I wouldn't confront you on it if you hadn't already made many similar threads like "What if it has 5% fish in it?".

As I already told you, Do not answer if you have problems with the threads. No one is forcing you.

Besides, when did I exactly say "What if it has 5% fish in it?" . I think you are confused again.

no whey jose 08-08-2015 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogma (Post 3741281)
Those answers are fallacious. If vegetarianism were imposed purely as a practical measure then the argument would end there, however vegetarianism from a moral standpoint asserts that one is vegetarian by principle which by extension asserts firm cut-and-dry lines in the sand. You should be able to answer yes or no regardless of the realism of the question.

Conversely the question is also fallacious because it's rhetorical. If vegetarianism operates by principle, than the question exists to tease vegetarians into admitting that they might discard their principles under certain circumstances.

At best, SilverCat is poorly structuring their question, at worst, they are attempting to undermine the entire point of the forum.

I suggest closing this thread unless SilverCat can somehow redeem it.

I've always understood veganism to be practical. Isn't it the avoidance of animal products to whatever extent is practicable?
Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverCat (Post 3741369)
I do not know why people think of cannibalism. I certainly did not ask that.

As Kiwi said, flesh is flesh. My answer to your question is that I might eat meat (human or otherwise) if my only other option was death. It's really hard to say because I can't imagine a scenario where I would have to make that decision. When people ask this question, their intent is usually to say "ha! You would eat meat, so you're not really vegan!" But I might eat human meat, too, and that doesn't make me secretly a cannibal. That's why it's such a strange question to ask.

Capstan 08-08-2015 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogma (Post 3741401)
I wouldn't confront you on it if you hadn't already made many similar threads like "What if it has 5% fish in it?".

Dogma, is this an attempt to discourage SilverCat from starting threads? Discouraging people from posting is expressly against our rules. All of our members have the right to begin threads on topics that are of interest to them, without being personally badgered for their interests. I strongly recommend you familiarize yourself with our guidelines, and keep your responses on a less personal level.

Docbanana 08-08-2015 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogma (Post 3741281)
Those answers are fallacious. If vegetarianism were imposed purely as a practical measure then the argument would end there, however vegetarianism from a moral standpoint asserts that one is vegetarian by principle which by extension asserts firm cut-and-dry lines in the sand. You should be able to answer yes or no regardless of the realism of the question.

Conversely the question is also fallacious because it's rhetorical. If vegetarianism operates by principle, than the question exists to tease vegetarians into admitting that they might discard their principles under certain circumstances.

At best, SilverCat is poorly structuring their question, at worst, they are attempting to undermine the entire point of the forum.

I suggest closing this thread unless SilverCat can somehow redeem it.

Sorry you don't like my answer lol. I really wasn't giving an answer, just reflecting on the many ways that this scenario is ridiculous. It reflects ignorance about how ecosystems function and the reality of survival in a place like this. So I'm picking it apart.

To give a straight answer, my answer would depend on knowing more about the situation, which means giving me a realistic scenario that I can work with. If your morals are firm rules that you apply in exactly the same way regardless of consequence, then I guess you just have the same answer for all scenarios, which is no. My mind doesn't work that way.

I don't believe in taking the life of any animal, human or nonhuman, but would I take a life in self defense? Maybe kill an animal if it were the only way to stay alive? Yes, I think I would, then feel guilt and disgust over it. I might also eat meat (human or nonhuman) that was already dead in order to stay alive, but feel disgust. But in everyday life this is not necessary. I'm not forced to choose between my life and another, I make choices to promote both my life/welfare AND others. But if it is my life vs the life of a fish...I choose me.

rasitha.wijesekera 08-08-2015 12:37 PM

Honestly, I probably would put myself above anything else. I'd feel sick about it. But Ill get over it.

Beautiful Joe 08-08-2015 12:39 PM

Silvercat, you've been asking many of the questions omnivores ask veg*ns as *gotcha* questions. I don't think that the answers you get are going to be particularly helpful to you, because committing to a lifestyle change based on ethics has to come from within an individual, and not depend on what others think or do.

Kiwibird08 08-08-2015 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe (Post 3741865)
Silvercat, you've been asking many of the questions omnivores ask veg*ns as *gotcha* questions. I don't think that the answers you get are going to be particularly helpful to you, because committing to a lifestyle change based on ethics has to come from within an individual, and not depend on what others think or do.

I have no idea what the OP is up to with these questions, but I do not necessarily feel they are coming from an omnivore or a hateful place. I almost interpret it as a new veg/vegan who's being asked these things him/herself by others and is curious what long time veg/vegans think. It is more difficult for some to transition than others, especially if they have no support, and some of these kinds of questions from meat eaters may really sway someone who's unsure and on the fence back to being a meat eater.

It is also, IMO, important as vegetarians and vegans to explore these kinds of "what if's", if for nothing else, to be able to answer difficult questions posed by those determined to make us falter. Once you have been for a while, you've been asked these things so many times it's kind of easy to make assumptions about those who ask them whiteout stopping to think about the context (someone who's trying/thinking about becoming vegetarian and seems unsure and is asking on a forum with numerous long-term veg/vegans who have encountered these topics and have a good amount of insight).

SilverCat 08-08-2015 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe (Post 3741865)
Silvercat, you've been asking many of the questions omnivores ask veg*ns as *gotcha* questions. I don't think that the answers you get are going to be particularly helpful to you, because committing to a lifestyle change based on ethics has to come from within an individual, and not depend on what others think or do.


They are very helpful. I am a recent vegetarian.

SilverCat 08-08-2015 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwibird08 (Post 3741881)
I have no idea what the OP is up to with these questions, but I do not necessarily feel they are coming from an omnivore or a hateful place. I almost interpret it as a new veg/vegan who's being asked these things him/herself by others and is curious what long time veg/vegans think. It is more difficult for some to transition than others, especially if they have no support, and some of these kinds of questions from meat eaters may really sway someone who's unsure and on the fence back to being a meat eater.


Exactly....!

@rno 08-09-2015 12:16 AM

Hi Silvercat,

Maybe you can read all the answers in the forumsubject "Stupid things omnivores say" at the "Veggie Patch" part of this forum. There are several "Stupid things ..." all around this forum, so you have some reading to do, but it is very funny.


Clich here to go to the subject:
https://www.veggieboards.com/forum/16...ion-6-0-a.html

Dogma 08-09-2015 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverCat
As I already told you, Do not answer if you have problems with the threads. No one is forcing you.

>_>

Quote:

Originally Posted by no whey jose
I've always understood veganism to be practical.

That's not what I was saying. I was distinguishing practical reasons such as health from moral reasons. If you're life depends on it, it's hardly likely to matter if the meat you're eating isn't exactly an ideal meal. How much it's costs is also pretty irrelevant at that point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capstan
Dogma, is this an attempt to discourage SilverCat from starting threads?

No, it's not. It's a request for context. I'm not the only one who considers these threads odd:

Quote:

Originally Posted by no whey jose
I don't understand what you're asking....
...When people ask this question, their intent is usually to say "ha! You would eat meat, so you're not really vegan!"

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe
Silvercat, you've been asking many of the questions omnivores ask veg*ns as *gotcha* questions. I don't think that the answers you get are going to be particularly helpful to you,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kiwibird08
I have no idea what the OP is up to with these questions,

I do not need to be reminded of the guidelines, thank you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Docbanana
Sorry you don't like my answer lol...
...To give a straight answer, my answer would depend on knowing more about the situation,

I agree, I think specifics would help. It's a very loaded question otherwise.

Shallot 08-09-2015 02:08 AM

Ultimately these types of questions are about whether or not you would cross a moral line to save your own life. Most of us probably would cross all sorts of moral boundaries if our survival were at stake but it doesn't make the ethics that we hold to any less valuable.

To put it another way:
If my survival depended absolutely on the killing of another human being I'd probably do it (I'm thinking self defence here) - but I'd not then feel justified in killing other people just because I'd done so once before.

Tiger Lilly 08-09-2015 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SilverCat (Post 3740881)
AND how far SHOULD you GO?

Be honest.

I can't believe you all went and had such an interesting conversation without me! Really guys, it'll give a girl a complex if you insist on having these conversations during the times when I can't get to a computer! :P


I see this question in two parts-

1. How far would you go?
2. How far SHOULD you go?


I would hope my answer to both would be the same. That I wouldn't eat animals, regardless of how hungry I was, even if it meant I'd die.

Every time someone asks me a question like this, I'm reminded of a story Jonathan Safran Foer tells in "Eating Animals". His grandmother was on the run from the Nazis for a number of years (she's Jewish). One day she was offered pork but didn't eat it, despite literally starving, and when Foer asked her why she didn't eat it, as it really was a matter of saving her life, she responded with “If nothing matters, there’s nothing to save.”

So, I hope I would be the same because it makes sense to me. We are our actions and our beliefs. If I'm not living by those, then what am I saving by eating an animal?

Now....That's what I think I 'should' do, but whether I would?

I'm not sure. I'd hope I never have to find out.

Dogma 08-09-2015 02:38 AM

Has anyone here seen the movie, The Road?

It's about a post apocalypse US in which the main protagonist and his son struggle to survive in a world where most people have resorted to stealing from each other and cannibalism.

There are many references to the choices of morality they face, but it's made clear that if the characters weren't trying to make moral decisions in spite of the odds, they wouldn't be characters worth empathizing with.

Dogma 08-09-2015 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tiger Lilly
“If nothing matters, there’s nothing to save.”...

...We are our actions and our beliefs. If I'm not living by those, then what am I saving by eating an animal?

Well spoken.

Capstan 08-09-2015 03:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogma (Post 3742313)
No, it's not. It's a request for context. I'm not the only one who considers these threads odd:

I do not need to be reminded of the guidelines, thank you.

By your own admission, you were- unlike the others who exrpessed concern over the subject, which you cited- confrontational, and were not making a "request," as you put it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogma (Post 3741401)
I wouldn't confront you on it if you hadn't already made many similar threads like "What if it has 5% fish in it?".

You also posted-

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogma (Post 3741281)
I suggest closing this thread unless SilverCat can somehow redeem it.

Your request is denied, because the thread topic is not against our posting guidelines.

Furthermore, if you think a thread needs closing, you should follow our procedures, by reporting the thread to the moderators, giving your reasons, as per our guidelines, and not engage in this sort of public vigilantism. I say again, you need to familiarize yourself with our posting guidelines. The point of the forum is to provide for a free exchange of ideas. You may not care for another member's personal style, but it is not permitted to engage in public slurs, such as, "At best, SilverCat is poorly structuring their question, at worst, they are attempting to undermine the entire point of the forum." If you object to a thread, you need to report it to the mods.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dogma (Post 3742313)
I agree, I think specifics would help.

My congratulations on coming up with a much better way to ask for the clarification you seek.

BTW, welcome back to VeggieBoards, after your 4-year absence.

Dogma 08-09-2015 05:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capstan (Post 3742417)
Your request is denied,

*shrugs* The topic seems to be rolling now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capstan
"At best, SilverCat is poorly structuring their question, at worst, they are attempting to undermine the entire point of the forum." If you object to a thread, you need to report it to the mods.

I didn't report it because I was giving SilverCat the benefit of the doubt.

You may recall my request to close the thread was followed by the line "unless SilverCat can somehow redeem it.", and SilverCat's following posts appeared to me to be legitimate queries.

Honestly I think the discussion seems to be going smoothly enough without the constant references to the argument grinding the topic to a halt.

If SilverCat can get over it and you can get over it, then we can move along. Otherwise I'll excuse myself from the thread. I really don't mind either way.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Capstan
BTW, welcome back to VeggieBoards, after your 4-year absence.

I feel much loved.


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