How far would you go if you only had meat, without eating them? - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 08-09-2015, 06:06 AM
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there are desert islands that people find themselves on like US prisons, or living on the streets eating out of bins.

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#32 Old 08-09-2015, 06:34 AM
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It's better to deal with the here and now than worry about hypotheticals, SilverCat. Have you become vegetarian yet? Are you getting these questions from others, or are you still on the fence yourself?
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#33 Old 08-09-2015, 06:49 AM
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*laughing* I like those.
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#34 Old 08-09-2015, 06:55 AM
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there are desert islands that people find themselves on like US prisons, or living on the streets eating out of bins.
Finally a realistic example!
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#35 Old 08-09-2015, 07:14 AM
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there are desert islands that people find themselves on like US prisons, or living on the streets eating out of bins.
Very good point.

When I was in rehab many years ago, it was impossible to eat a vegan diet because I was not permitted to keep food in my room or to bring my own from outside, and the menu for meals was set. Often I ate nothing but canned vegetables or fries for dinner because the only other option was meat and although I refused to eat meat, I did eat the dairy and egg options. Otherwise I wouldn't have survived the six-month program. So I suppose my answer is that I will eat as close to vegan as I can without putting myself in danger.
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#36 Old 08-09-2015, 07:21 AM
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On this subject of living on the streets, I was homeless for several years, during the late '70s and early '80s. It was actually being deprived of food that set me on the path toward veg*nism. Maybe not having that constant influx of meat, which I had been used to, taught me that I really didn't need it.

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#37 Old 08-09-2015, 07:28 AM
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I want to play a game. You call yourself a vegetarian, but is it out of appreciation for the lives of others, or yourself? The room is locked. There are no windows and no doors. The only way out is the escape chute in the floor between you and the possum sitting across from you. Try as hard you'd like, the hatch will not open. The only way out is to kill. In your hand is a gun with a single bullet, I think you know what to do. Decide carefully though: you're not the only one with a gun...

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#38 Old 08-09-2015, 07:31 AM
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Very good point.

When I was in rehab many years ago, it was impossible to eat a vegan diet because I was not permitted to keep food in my room or to bring my own from outside, and the menu for meals was set. Often I ate nothing but canned vegetables or fries for dinner because the only other option was meat and although I refused to eat meat, I did eat the dairy and egg options. Otherwise I wouldn't have survived the six-month program. So I suppose my answer is that I will eat as close to vegan as I can without putting myself in danger.
This is exactly where people should stand I think. I was wondering my self how strong should I stand. I think this the most balanced answer. I became a vegetarian since the beginning of this month for the first time (and I am alone.). Thanks a lot for the people who helped me answer all my questions! they meant a lot to me. Most of the people were really helpful. Thanks!
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#39 Old 08-09-2015, 08:47 AM
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My Mom was in the hospital for diverticulitis during the time period she was eating all vegan (and gluten free to boot). She had a terrible time finding something to eat since she couldn't have gluten or nuts/seeds or even fruits with seeds in them. The nutrition services department had a hard time finding her food to eat. She ate a lot of plain potatoes, plain oatmeal, fruit juice. Not an ideal situation for someone very sick and trying to heal. I did bring her in some food from outside. After that experience, I wrote to nutrition services and actively pursued getting more vegan options on their menus. Thankfully the director of nutrition services there has been very open minded and generous in getting vegan items on the menu.

I often wonder, now that people have mentioned it, what I would do if I were homeless or locked up in a hospital or some other unfortunate situation. I do try to donate vegan food items to homeless shelters and soup kitchens and food shelves when I can. Maybe I could pursue getting some economical vegan items on the menu at some of the more local prisons around. These areas of vegan activism are often neglected.

I think if there was no other choice (such as being sick in the hospital or a psych ward or locked up in jail etc) I might eat what was given to me if I were in dire straits and couldn't get any help. It would be very very difficult though.

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#40 Old 08-09-2015, 11:10 AM
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I am very surprised to hear some of the statements people make on this site. I don't mean any disrespect but not sure people are always honest and sometimes are so judgemental. If I had to eat meat to survive I would do it with out any hesitation. I find it so odd someone would say they would rather die then kill an animal. I can't imagine what it would feel like to be dying of starvation but I know for a fact I would do whatever was necessary to stop the suffering. I will raise another point to the people that would never kill an animal. If you are walking your dog and a Coyote or other animal attacks your dog or you would you kill it if it was the only way to protect yourself and dog? I completely agree with everyone that farm raised animals and killing them is wrong. I think that preditory animals is an entirely different thing. They will kill you if they have a chance and you should be able to protect yourself as well. The reality is that when certain species of animals thrive others decline. How do you decide which are more important?
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#41 Old 08-09-2015, 07:12 PM
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I am very surprised to hear some of the statements people make on this site. I don't mean any disrespect but not sure people are always honest and sometimes are so judgemental. If I had to eat meat to survive I would do it with out any hesitation. I find it so odd someone would say they would rather die then kill an animal. I can't imagine what it would feel like to be dying of starvation but I know for a fact I would do whatever was necessary to stop the suffering. I will raise another point to the people that would never kill an animal. If you are walking your dog and a Coyote or other animal attacks your dog or you would you kill it if it was the only way to protect yourself and dog? I completely agree with everyone that farm raised animals and killing them is wrong. I think that preditory animals is an entirely different thing. They will kill you if they have a chance and you should be able to protect yourself as well. The reality is that when certain species of animals thrive others decline. How do you decide which are more important?

wait wait, why is it judgemental again? Come on, if they can hold themselves to be true to their morals regardless of how dire the situation is for that person, isn't that commendable?
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#42 Old 08-09-2015, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by ocrob37 View Post
I am very surprised to hear some of the statements people make on this site. I don't mean any disrespect but not sure people are always honest and sometimes are so judgemental. If I had to eat meat to survive I would do it with out any hesitation. I find it so odd someone would say they would rather die then kill an animal. I can't imagine what it would feel like to be dying of starvation but I know for a fact I would do whatever was necessary to stop the suffering.
I don't find it odd that you think you would eat meat in this situation. But, as I'm guessing my post is one of the ones that you didn't understand, then I'll explain further my reasoning.

First, I'm not saying what I would do is what everyone else should do. Their suffering, their way to deal with it. I'd usually add "as long as no one gets hurt" but in the case of starving to death, with nothing but animals to eat....That's probably a bit impossible. If someone 'needs' to eat meat in the highly unlikely situation where nothing but animals are available, I won't judge that person. I just wouldn't do it.

As to my reasoning, well, it's my reasoning. It's for me. The question wasn't "should people who are on island with nothing but meat to eat, eat meat?" the question was, would I do it? Well, I wouldn't. At least, I would hope that I wouldn't. If someone sees that as me judging someone else's choice to eat meat, then that's their problem. I'm not the one in control of their conscience. And yes, that means I would rather die than kill someone else, just so I can eat.

I choose the "I'd probably rather die" answer because a large part of my identity is my love of animals. If I don't live that, then what's the point of me? As I said before, what's left to save?

I'm just glad it's not actually something that will happen, so I'll never have to know whether I'd eat meat or not in that situation.


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I will raise another point to the people that would never kill an animal. If you are walking your dog and a Coyote or other animal attacks your dog or you would you kill it if it was the only way to protect yourself and dog? I completely agree with everyone that farm raised animals and killing them is wrong. I think that preditory animals is an entirely different thing. They will kill you if they have a chance and you should be able to protect yourself as well. The reality is that when certain species of animals thrive others decline. How do you decide which are more important?
Yes, I'd kill it. It would be horrible and I would feel terrible about it. But I'd kill it.

I never said I would 'never kill an animal', I said I'd never eat one (again).

Maybe that makes it all a bit conflicting, that I'd kill an animal to defend myself (and the animal in my family) but not kill an animal to eat it. I'm not sure I can explain why I'd do it that way.

Perhaps because I see the first instance, of taking someone's life so I can eat, as a selfish act. Why should someone, who doesn't want to harm me, lose their life so that I can eat?

The second instance is pure defense, someone is actively trying to harm me and my family, so therefore I would do whatever it necessary to protect them.

But I'm not sure on those answers, maybe they'll change over time.
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#43 Old 08-10-2015, 01:46 AM
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Another yes from me. If dying (or even the onset of illness) was the alternative then I would eat meat. Other than that, I'd never knowingly or willingly do so.
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#44 Old 08-10-2015, 02:02 AM
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I will raise another point to the people that would never kill an animal. If you are walking your dog and a Coyote or other animal attacks your dog or you would you kill it if it was the only way to protect yourself and dog? I completely agree with everyone that farm raised animals and killing them is wrong. I think that preditory animals is an entirely different thing. They will kill you if they have a chance and you should be able to protect yourself as well. The reality is that when certain species of animals thrive others decline. How do you decide which are more important?
The belief that predators will kill you at every opportunity is why many of them have been almost completely eradicated. Predators are no more evil creatures out for blood than we as humans (also predators) are. I have encountered grey timber wolves, bears, coyotes, a lynx, and other predators face to face in the woods and trust me they are as afraid of me as I am of them. They might go after my dog Sable if I had not kept her close and protected her (which any responsible person who has a companion dog or other "pet" should do when bringing a domesticated animal into a wilderness area who can't otherwise defend themself) but more than likely this would be because of territorial instinct than pure lust for blood and food. Prey animals in the wild also have a remarkable ability to survive and defend themselves, or they would have all been gone thousands of years ago. There are not a whole lot of situations of species I can think of where a predator totally eradicated a prey animal to the point of extinction, other than what humans have done.

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#45 Old 08-10-2015, 02:18 AM
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If you are walking your dog and a Coyote or other animal attacks your dog or you would you kill it if it was the only way to protect yourself and dog? I completely agree with everyone that farm raised animals and killing them is wrong. I think that preditory animals is an entirely different thing.
I was implying my answer to this scenario. If they have no respect for my life, then I have no respect for theirs.
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#46 Old 08-10-2015, 07:53 AM
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I was implying my answer to this scenario. If they have no respect for my life, then I have no respect for theirs.

Dude, they are animals. How would you expect them to "respect" your life? They might be afraid of you or not afraid of you. That's all you can expect.
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#47 Old 08-11-2015, 02:56 AM
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Dude, they are animals. How would you expect them to "respect" your life? They might be afraid of you or not afraid of you. That's all you can expect.
They're no more animal than I am. Whether they lash out selfishly or out of blind fear, they're attacking me unprovoked. That's a decision I intend them to learn the consequences of.

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#48 Old 08-11-2015, 03:52 AM
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About 18-years ago- I had not eaten any meat for several years- I was out of work, basically living out of my car, and was desperate for employment. I took a 'day' job out of a labor hall (work a day/get paid the same day,) at a construction site. I hadn't eaten since the day before, and very little then, and there I was doing heavy labor. At lunchtime, somebody brought around some burgers, and offered me one. I didn't want to eat it, but I knew, if I didn't, I would likely pass out before the day was over, and I really needed the money. So I willingly ate it, but I didn't like it. (It didn't occur to me until much later that I might have removed the meat from the sandwich, and eaten only the bun and the trimmings. When you're really hungry and weak, rational thought isn't so easy to come by.) That was 18-years ago, at a time when I was supposedly "vegan," and I haven't touched meat since. I did what I felt I had to do. I expect, if I were to become hungry again, to the point of collapsing, and meat were the only thing available, I would likely eat it again.
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#49 Old 08-11-2015, 08:52 AM
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I didn't want to eat it, but I knew, if I didn't, I would likely pass out before the day was over, and I really needed the money. So I willingly ate it, but I didn't like it.
That sucks.

Would you hunt if the same circumstances presented themselves?

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(It didn't occur to me until much later that I might have removed the meat from the sandwich, and eaten only the bun and the trimmings.
I've been doing that for a long time. My co-workers are already so in the habit of setting aside bread for me that sometimes I'll find it just piled up in my seat during break periods.

It took a good while before it got to that point of course.
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#50 Old 08-11-2015, 02:55 PM
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That sucks.

Would you hunt if the same circumstances presented themselves?
No. It's not like I was in a "last man on Earth scenario." Even when I was homeless, and had no car to sleep in, I was able to get little odd jobs here and there- washing windows for a couple of dollars, or pulling someone's weeds for a few bucks- enough to keep me going, but it never occurred to me to become a 'mountain man.' In a doomsday scenario, where civilization is totally wiped out, I expect I could live for a long while on canned goods. I'd try to move to a climate, where crops grow easily, and try my hand at gardening. But if you're asking, would I sacrifice myself, out of respect for animal life, I probably would not. I don't much care for the idea of being a martyr.

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#51 Old 08-11-2015, 03:07 PM
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In a survival life or death situation than yes I would eat meat.
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#52 Old 08-11-2015, 03:19 PM
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As a general rule, I think that hypothetical questions like this one are more divisive than they are instructive. People will generally react with a "Oh, s/he's being naive!" or "S/he is trying to look good/tough/whatever" to responses that don't mirror their own. Also, life has taught me that one does not necessarily react as one would expect when put into a situation one has never before experienced.

That being said, if I had no one else relying on me, I don't think I would eat meat. However, that's easy for me to say, since I'm not particularly attached to my own life. If, however, someone else's continued life depended on me (as is the case with my companion animals), I would do whatever necessary to ensure their survival and wellbeing.
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#53 Old 08-11-2015, 04:17 PM
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I would actually like to take a moment to disagree with those saying that this is a stupid question. First of all, whether or not this situation is likely to happen or ever would happen is entirely irrelevant.

The reason one might ask this question is because the answers he receives will tell him a lot about WHY people are vegetarian, and what their views are. Someone has replied that they would rather starve until literal death than eat a deer. That view is absolutely worth examining and discussing. Others (like my self) think that eating meat in such a situation would not be immoral at all. If all the wolves on Earth decided they'd rather starve than eat their animal prey, then we wouldn't have any more wolves. I feel that when it comes to survival, most rules of morality can justly go out the window. Unless it's some even more ridiculous hypothetical like "Would you rather die or nuke the U.S.?"
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#54 Old 08-11-2015, 04:30 PM
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I would actually like to take a moment to disagree with those saying that this is a stupid question. First of all, whether or not this situation is likely to happen or ever would happen is entirely irrelevant.

The reason one might ask this question is because the answers he receives will tell him a lot about WHY people are vegetarian, and what their views are. Someone has replied that they would rather starve until literal death than eat a deer. That view is absolutely worth examining and discussing. Others (like my self) think that eating meat in such a situation would not be immoral at all. If all the wolves on Earth decided they'd rather starve than eat their animal prey, then we wouldn't have any more wolves. I feel that when it comes to survival, most rules of morality can justly go out the window. Unless it's some even more ridiculous hypothetical like "Would you rather die or nuke the U.S.?"
You're absolutely correct. I apologize for my own retort.
I think we're defensive here about hypothetical questions like that because so often they're addressed as, honestly, stupid questions when meat defenders have no better arguement.

i'm with you on surviving. we are, after all, animals ourselves.
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#55 Old 08-11-2015, 08:11 PM
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They're no more animal than I am. Whether they lash out selfishly or out of blind fear, they're attacking me unprovoked. That's a decision I intend them to learn the consequences of.
"Unprovoked" is an interesting word to choose.

What if you unknowingly did something to provoke them and they are merely reacting?

I think your answer comes across as cruel, or maybe I'm just reading it in a cruel voice in my head. (The Internet makes it hard to read people). Besides, if you kill something they don't learn anything, they're dead.

I just think, maybe in this instance, you're painting with a rather broad stroke. When my partner and I rescued our kittens, one of them bit him. HARD. I have no doubt that they had no respect for our lives, but it would have been wrong to react with violence at that point in time.

I've been bitten by dogs before too. Dogs who've had horrible things done to them and didn't know they could trust me, so reacted defensively. I'm not going to require that dog to lose their life, just because they're trying to protect it.

Do you understand what I'm saying?
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#56 Old 08-11-2015, 09:07 PM
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About 18-years ago- I had not eaten any meat for several years- I was out of work, basically living out of my car, and was desperate for employment. I took a 'day' job out of a labor hall (work a day/get paid the same day,) at a construction site. I hadn't eaten since the day before, and very little then, and there I was doing heavy labor. At lunchtime, somebody brought around some burgers, and offered me one. I didn't want to eat it, but I knew, if I didn't, I would likely pass out before the day was over, and I really needed the money. So I willingly ate it, but I didn't like it. (It didn't occur to me until much later that I might have removed the meat from the sandwich, and eaten only the bun and the trimmings. When you're really hungry and weak, rational thought isn't so easy to come by.) That was 18-years ago, at a time when I was supposedly "vegan," and I haven't touched meat since. I did what I felt I had to do. I expect, if I were to become hungry again, to the point of collapsing, and meat were the only thing available, I would likely eat it again.
The seems like a really fair place to draw the line.
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#57 Old 08-11-2015, 09:13 PM
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They're no more animal than I am. Whether they lash out selfishly or out of blind fear, they're attacking me unprovoked. That's a decision I intend them to learn the consequences of.
Usually animals do not attack if they not provoked. Still, it is not a good thing to like "bite the dog back, if the dog bites you".

They are animals, they do not respect anyone's life anyway. But that doesn't mean we should take weapons against them.
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#58 Old 08-11-2015, 09:15 PM
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Dude, they are animals. How would you expect them to "respect" your life? They might be afraid of you or not afraid of you. That's all you can expect.
Couldn't agree more.
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#59 Old 08-13-2015, 11:09 AM
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NOW this thread's on a roll. Lots of interesting points here. Here we go:

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I don't much care for the idea of being a martyr.
Martyr is as strange choice of words to me. Martyrdom in my mind is always used to describe someone who actively maintains a specific goal and dies in pursuit of it, whether intentionally or not. I personally wouldn't use it to describe my passive response to an edible deer in my proximity.

Dictionary.com defines Martyr as "a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion" or "a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause". Both seem to imply that the presence of a deer (or any given killable/edible animal) directly confronts my principles when that hardly seems the case to me.

Even if we were to discard these semantics, your decision would suggest that you would, hesitant or not, eat other humans or even your own family if it was necessary to survive. To say otherwise introduces bias into the conflict.

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Originally Posted by Beautiful Joe
Also, life has taught me that one does not necessarily react as one would expect when put into a situation one has never before experienced.
Despite my obvious stance in contrast to your argument, I've considered that as well. I've actually had an entire argument with a young women who absolutely maintained that in the extraordinarily unlikely event that she was the only woman left on the face of the planet that the NEED to continue the human race was SO important that she would consider it her unquestionable DUTY to have sex with as many men as it took to maintain our species.

This was her argument against my insistence than we should permit the animals we've abused to die out without further interference if that's what it came down to.

My impression is that it's far easier to say than it is to do. However my own experience with food shortages has not made non-vegan food any more tempting which is why I'm confident in the decision I'm making.

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Originally Posted by Beautful Joe
I don't think I would eat meat. However, that's easy for me to say, since I'm not particularly attached to my own life.
What does THAT mean? O_o

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Originally Posted by Zack
The reason one might ask this question is because the answers he receives will tell him a lot about WHY people are vegetarian, and what their views are. Someone has replied that they would rather starve until literal death than eat a deer. That view is absolutely worth examining and discussing.
Thank you, Zack.

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Originally Posted by Zack
Others (like my self) think that eating meat in such a situation would not be immoral at all.
You know, I looked all over, but I cannot find it.... I swear I heard that there was a unique tabletop RPG rule where your character's chosen alignment was suspended and shifted to true neutral or chaotic evil or something when your character's life was in danger. I wish I could find that again.

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Originally Posted by Zack
If all the wolves on Earth decided they'd rather starve than eat their animal prey, then we wouldn't have any more wolves.
...and?

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Originally Posted by silva
i'm with you on surviving. we are, after all, animals ourselves.
What are you implying about animals?

I get the impression that you're making some sort of negative distinction about animals, since asserting your similarities to animals seems a strange way to rationalize eating them.

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Originally Posted by Tiger Lilly
"Unprovoked" is an interesting word to choose.

What if you unknowingly did something to provoke them and they are merely reacting?
An EXCELLENT question I was expecting.

That opens up an auxiliary topic: "Who's to blame in the event of a miscommunication?"

There are many examples I could make, but let's look at one I'm sure many of us can empathize with: honey bee stings.

In general honey bees will avoid humans, however if a honey bee feels threatened it will not hesitate to retaliate with it's stinger. Unfortunately honey bees are cursed with special brand of stupidity where they do not know that their sting will kill them and aren't intelligent enough to determine for themselves when sacrificing themselves is complete and utter waste.

Say you're outside on a chain swing and just swinging back and forth. Say after 10 minutes a honey bee on it's quest for pollen blunders into the path of the swing. BOOM. PANIC. The honey bee in it's infinite wisdom freaks out, stings you, and dies. You might temporarily stop to procure some antiseptic, but the bee has died. For nothing. Who's to blame?

In this example you could argue the swinging was to blame, but to be fair many activities humans might partake in in their backyard could create this sort of conflict by the mere virtue that they are comparably large and situationally fast. It's seems fair to me to say that the bee didn't know any better and in it's haste, instead of retreating, it went out of it's way to abandon it's pollination to retaliate.

Now let's look at an alternate example:


Who's to blame? Obviously the purpose of the prank was in the spirit of Halloween, but the victim was just that- a victim. The surprise of having a disguised stranger suddenly lunging for your face would provoke instinctual responses from anyone. In the cases of those whose experience lends good reason to interpret that as an attack and just cause to defend yourself, the prank seems generally unwise. In cases where the victim was armed, these pranks have even had fatal outcomes.

What I take from this is that miscommunication generally operates in two ways: in one way, information is exchanged and one or both sides are unable to interpret that information accurately. In a second way, information is exchanged, but one or both sides are presenting that information inaccurately.

We should strive to interpret all of the information provided to us to the best of our ability before making a decision, but we should ALSO strive to present ourselves in an honest manner to prevent others from misinterpreting us.

We are equally responsible for understanding our environment as well as presenting ourselves.

So if I find myself lost in those hypothetical woods and an ROUS thinks I'm encroaching on their territory, you'll know I won't be to blame for not knowing and thereby defending myself.

And if I find myself lost in the hypothetical frontyard in a pointed white hat and robes while burning a crucifix in the lawn of a foreign couple, you'll know they'll be entirely justified when they cave my face in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Lilly
I think your answer comes across as cruel, or maybe I'm just reading it in a cruel voice in my head.
That's a decision... I intend them to learn the CONSEQUENCES of... MuwahahaHAAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

I didn't mean it in a cruel way. In fact I specifically phrased it that way in order to address your following point:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiger Lilly
I've been bitten by dogs before too. Dogs who've had horrible things done to them and didn't know they could trust me, so reacted defensively. I'm not going to require that dog to lose their life, just because they're trying to protect it.

Do you understand what I'm saying?
Of course. The consequences I mentioned could merely extend to subduing them. Dogs have bitten me before and when that happened I took a firm hold of their snout and say "NO." Eventually they learned. By no means was I suggesting that the appropriate response to any aggressive animal is immediately killing them.

O_o WHAT!?

No, but my statement also holds true for the hypothetical situation where a tiger shows up and decides I look a tasty snack. If I have to kill that Tiger to avoid being eaten, of course I will. And in the hyper-unlikely event that I manage to wrestle a Tiger to death, THEN I can consider the moral conundrum of eating it. Until then, I won't even consider the option. If that makes me cruel...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCat
Usually animals do not attack if they not provoked. Still, it is not a good thing to like "bite the dog back, if the dog bites you".
The 'firm grip on the dog's snout' thing actually mimics how some dogs and wolves teach their puppies by clamping down on their snouts. It's called a muzzle grip. Now if you want to criticize canine parenting techniques that's fine, but that might require another thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCat
They are animals, they do not respect anyone's life anyway.
*sigh* ...surely I'm not the only one who thinks this 'respect' thing is just a semantic cop-out. You make it sound like if a dog was driving a car and hit someone they'd just keep driving.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SilverCat
But that doesn't mean we should take weapons against them.
*laughs* What, am I beating on dogs with swords or something?

Last edited by Dogma; 08-13-2015 at 11:17 AM.
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#60 Old 08-13-2015, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogma View Post
Martyr is as strange choice of words to me. Martyrdom in my mind is always used to describe someone who actively maintains a specific goal and dies in pursuit of it, whether intentionally or not. I personally wouldn't use it to describe my passive response to an edible deer in my proximity.

Dictionary.com defines Martyr as "a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion" or "a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause". Both seem to imply that the presence of a deer (or any given killable/edible animal) directly confronts my principles when that hardly seems the case to me.

Even if we were to discard these semantics, your decision would suggest that you would, hesitant or not, eat other humans or even your own family if it was necessary to survive. To say otherwise introduces bias into the conflict.
Only if you assume the word, animal, is always inclusive of human-beings, which, in common usage, it is not.

Your semantics have inspired me to re-read the "gravedigger" scene from Hamlet. I post an excerpt from it here, for your benefit-

Quote:
HAMLET
I will speak to this fellow.—Whose grave’s this, sirrah?


GRAVEDIGGER
Mine, sir.

(sings)

Oh, a pit of dirt is what we need
For a guest like this one here.


HAMLET
I think it be thine, indeed, for thou liest in ’t.


GRAVEDIGGER You lie out on ’t, sir, and therefore it is not yours. For my part, I do not lie in ’t, and yet it is mine.


HAMLET Thou dost lie in ’t, to be in ’t and say it is thine. 'Tis for the dead, not for the quick. Therefore thou liest.


GRAVEDIGGER 'Tis a quick lie, sir. 'Twill away gain from me to you.


HAMLET What man dost thou dig it for?


GRAVEDIGGER For no man, sir.


HAMLET What woman, then?


GRAVEDIGGER For none, neither.


HAMLET Who is to be buried in ’t?


GRAVEDIGGER One that was a woman, sir, but, rest her soul, she’s dead.


HAMLET How absolute the knave is! We must speak by the card, or equivocation will undo us. By the Lord, Horatio, these three years I have taken a note of it. The age is grown so picked that the toe of the peasant comes so near the heel of the courtier he galls his kibe.—How long hast thou been a grave-maker?


GRAVEDIGGER Of all the days i' the year, I came to ’t that day that our last
King Hamlet overcame Fortinbras.


HAMLET
How long is that since?


GRAVEDIGGER Cannot you tell that? Every fool can tell that. It was the very day that young Hamlet was born, he that is mad and sent into England.


HAMLET Ay, marry, why was he sent into England?


GRAVEDIGGER Why, because he was mad. He shall recover his wits there, or, if he do not, it’s no great matter there.


HAMLET Why?


GRAVEDIGGER 'Twill not be seen in him there. There the men are as mad as he.


HAMLET How came he mad?


GRAVEDIGGER Very strangely, they say.


HAMLET How “strangely”?


GRAVEDIGGER Faith, e'en with losing his wits.


HAMLET Upon what ground?


GRAVEDIGGER Why, here in Denmark. I have been sexton here, man and boy, thirty years.


HAMLET How long will a man lie i' the earth ere he rot?


GRAVEDIGGER
Faith, if he be not rotten before he die—as we have many pocky corses nowadays that will scarce hold the laying in— he will last you some eight year or nine year. A tanner will last you nine year.


HAMLET Why he more than another?


GRAVEDIGGER Why, sir, his hide is so tanned with his trade that he will keep out water a great while, and your water is a sore decayer of your whoreson dead body. (indicates a skull) Here’s a skull now. This skull has lain in the earth three-and-twenty years.


HAMLET Whose was it?


GRAVEDIGGER A whoreson mad fellow’s it was. Whose do you think it was?


HAMLET Nay, I know not.


GRAVEDIGGER A pestilence on him for a mad rogue! He poured a flagon of Rhenish on my head once. This same skull, sir, was Yorick’s skull, the king’s jester.


HAMLET This?


GRAVEDIGGER E'en that.


HAMLET Let me see. (takes the skull) Alas, poor Yorick! I knew him, Horatio....












A little off-topic perhaps, but I thought you might get a kick out of it.
no whey jose likes this.

"There is more wisdom in the song of a bird, than in the speech of a philosopher...." -Oahspe
"The thing is, you cannot judge a race. Any man who judges by the group is a pea-wit. You take men one at a time." -Buster Kilrain, The Killer Angels -Michael Shaara
"Anyone who doesn't believe in miracles isn't a realist." -Billy Wilder
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