Reasons why we are vegetarian rather than vegan - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 11-25-2013, 09:32 AM
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I was vegetarian for over 10 years and have been vegan for a little under 5 months. In all my time as vegetarian I never really saw the need to be vegan and would view the diet as a bit extreme. I switched to a vegan diet after watching forks over knives but honestly, if I wasn't overweight with a history of heart issues I may have not made the same move.

If truth be told, I'm probably not 100% vegan. It's hard to go out to a restaurant and ensure that everything you eat is perfectly vegan. I'll ask them to leave out the cheese but if there is a drop of milk in the bread or a tiny bit of egg in the batter, I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Having an omni wife and kids also makes it quite tough to go to places they like to eat and have them watch me eat nothing more that a plain salad while they have a feast.
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#62 Old 11-26-2013, 02:47 PM
 
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I think it's important that, if we do consume eggs or dairy products, we try to be careful about their source.

 

I buy my eggs from here for example: http://www.hollyburton.com.au/?q=madelaine

 

I know they can and will still be criticised - I'm sure someone reading this will feel compelled to point out everything that's wrong about them.

 

Compared to factory farming, at least it's a big step in the right direction.

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#63 Old 11-26-2013, 05:31 PM
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I have a very bad reason to be vegetarian rather than vegan: convenience.

 

I don't always have the time to make myself lunches (or, more accurately, I don't take the time) so I often eat out and unfortunately, vegan options aren't always available. I'm already afraid to bother for not eating meat when I see friends and family and I'm scared it would be too much if I went all the way vegan. I hate trying new shoes as most models give me blisters so I have been ordering the same model of shoes every 2 or 3 years for a decade, because it doesn't hurt me when I start wearing them, yet it's also partly made of leather.

 

In any case, I'm perfectly aware that I'm being hypocritical so I have been trying to move more and more toward veganism.

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#64 Old 12-05-2013, 07:42 PM
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I became vegetarian last January after eating meat my whole life. I honestly think that meat just grossed me out and I was forcing myself to eat it because I thought I had to. After becoming vegetarian I slowly started to consider other things that gross me out but I "need".

 

Now, I don't drink cows milk because I don't want to and I don't have to! I drink rice milk, almond milk, and soy milk all interchangeably.

 

I don't eat eggs unless they are in something else. I buy only organic free range eggs because they are 98% less likely to have salmonella in them then standard eggs. Mostly those are for my fiancee, but honestly I use them for baking because I seem to be failing at the flax seed replacement thing. I hope in the future I can learn how to replace egg with flax and not have all of my cookies come out flat. 

 

I always order things without cheese if I am out at a restaurant. However, I still eat ben and jerries ice creme on the occasion that we get it. I also make dinners that include cheese some times. (mac and cheese) mostly because my fiancee love it. 

 

One huge reason I am not vegan is because of my relationship. My fiancee would not want me to be vegan and I don't want to be fully vegan. I want to go to family dinners without worrying about every little thing. I also don't want to cause additional stress on my relationship. I feel like I already worry so much about looking for "hidden" meat products such as chicken broth. Maybe when I am vegetarian for a few more years I will reconsider.

 

I have never been happier with my body, mind, and spirit as I am now. 

 

Thanks :nigel:

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#65 Old 12-06-2013, 05:59 AM
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We should all support each other in whatever capacity we find ourselves, and our ability to avoid eating meat. 

 

If we were all runners, some of us would run faster than others.  Some would run longer distances than others.  The main point would be that we are all running!

 

Don't let division creep in & obscure that fact that at whatever level we find ourselves......NONE of us are eating animals.  That in itself is a really great thing!!


All animals should be respected & should have the ability to lead a natural & enjoyable life. This means not eating them, or abusing them in any way.
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#66 Old 12-06-2013, 07:40 AM
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It's interesting to read the posts here so far, to see common reasons and ways of seeing things that other vegetarians have. I think it's just a matter of time for some here do go vegan. Is anyone here willing to suggest an ethical case for vegetarianism rather than veganism? There is one that's an implicit common theme in this thread so far: agreement with the vegan position, yet not adopting it due to competing interests. I think it's a matter of placing things into perspective.

I'm going to try and tread softly here, and I apologize for the length. By now I'm so familiar with the arguments on both sides, it's instinct to try to head them off in advance.

 

I'm a lacto/ovo vegetarian who stopped eating meat mostly to reduce my contribution to the CO2 in the air and the chicken waste in the Chesapeake Bay and the dead zones in the ocean. Eighty percent of the cattle bred in the US are bred for beef, compared to 20 percent for dairy. So the mother lode of reducing the number of cattle bred for slaughter (as all cattle, dairy and beef, are) is addressed by not eating beef. Likewise, far more meat chickens than egg-laying chickens are hatched every year (nine billion broilers, vs 27 million egg layers including the males culled at birth). I don't know a single vegetarian who eats more cheese, or more egg, than he or she did before going vegetarian. Nearly all eat far less, and many vegetarians eat little or none. I do think each person's choice should be based on knowing from trial and error what they can personally sustain: the path least likely to fail for that person. I also think that from an animal cruelty point of view, going vegetarian helps a lot and going vegan helps a little bit more than that. So that's the "diminishing returns" argument for vegetarianism. I think living as a vegetarian instead of a vegan is like being an environmentalist who still keeps a car (with good mpg, driven as little as possible), in a situation where a car makes the difference between a reasonable life and one where unreasonable time and effort are needed just to get around. Others may disagree. One thing I've noticed is that vegetarians see their position as close to that of vegans, whereas many vegans see the two positions as extremely far apart. It's like that saying that the "Dalai Lama agrees with the Pope, but the Pope disagrees with the Dalai Lama."

 

The ethical environmental argument for vegetarianism is that when you stop eating meat you attack the major causes of air and water pollution, maldistribution of grain, global desertification, drought and famine. Plastic shoes versus leather shoes does not yield the same environmental slam dunk; the figures tug in both directions. Leather and wool products often last far longer than their man-made counterparts, etc. Leather doesn't get food animals killed in the same way that food does, or the way fur gets fur-bearing animals killed. Leather making is something that gets done with their leftover parts; it factors into the economy of animal agriculture, but it's a minor player relative to meat (leather is five percent of the value of the animal, meat is ninety percent). Arguably it causes the least damage to animals or the environment to keep your current clothes and bags and furniture, whatever they're made out of, usable for as long as you possibly can. If you accept that argument, you don't toss out your leather shoes, and you don't give them away to someone who might keep them only a little while; you keep them for yourself and keep replacing the rubber heels and soles until the tops themselves give way. "Patch it up, wear it out. Make it do, or do without."

 

I've seen it argued that environmental vegetarianism is not ethical in the sense that animal rights veganism is ethical. That's just going to have to stand as a difference of opinion. Anything we do to make things better for others when personal benefit to ourselves is nil to slight, is pro-active ethical behavior. Following a vegan diet for health reasons does benefit me personally, if I do it smart. However, advocating a smart vegan or vegetarian diet for human health reasons is positive ethical behavior, even altruistic; my own health is not impacted by whether my sister or my neighbor eats meat! But somehow the word "ethical" has stuck solely to animal rights veganism, and other reasons for adopting a veg diet are termed "selfish" by some in the AR vegan community. There are obviously vegans, including many (or most!) on VB, who don't defend that sentiment and who understand why others would make choices different from their own.

 

What matters isn't whether you are motivated more by animal rights, the environment, or your health. What matters is whether your actions produce the best outcome for your specific motive, whether you can sustain your effort for the long haul, and whether you influence anyone else to follow your excellent example. It's all good for the animals and the planet, and for us.

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#67 Old 12-06-2013, 09:59 PM
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^ I just really love what you posted, Joan. It made sense in a whole heap of ways and summed up 'ethical' perfectly for me. I think that's the way I'm going to explain it to people.

 

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#68 Old 12-09-2013, 02:41 PM
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Joan thank you so much! That was very inspirational to read! Makes a lot of sense to me!

 

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Just because we always have, doesn't mean we always have to.

Once we KNOW better, we should DO better.

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#69 Old 12-21-2013, 05:23 PM
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Good question.
I would but my parents aren't exactly gonna be cool with that. I get enough grief as it is about not eating meat. I don't even want to know what would happen if I tried to drop off all animal-products.
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#70 Old 12-22-2013, 07:02 AM
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The only thing I wanted to quickly mention is that leather is not just a by-product of the meat industry actually, this is a common misconception. Additionally, the environmental effect of leather production is pretty high, it's bad for the people who tan it, it's bad for the environment and of course the animals.

I think any step people make toward living compassionately and environmentally friendly is wonderful and i support it, I just wanted provide the information.

http://www.compassionatecook.com/writings/podcast-media/leather-not-an-innocent-by-product-2

http://www.care2.com/causes/the-shocking-truth-about-leather-no-its-not-a-meat-byproduct.html
http://www.veganmainstream.com/2013/06/19/why-leather-is-not-a-by-product-of-the-meat-industry/

http://www.onegreenplanet.org/animalsandnature/leather-is-more-than-a-by-product-of-the-meat-industry/


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#71 Old 12-22-2013, 08:07 AM
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What it is, is a matter of proportion. Meat is 90 percent of the value of the a slaughtered cow or steer.Of the remaining 10 percent, about half of it comes from the cowhide. That's what we mean when we describe leather as a byproduct. Without meat, there would be no leather industry as we know it. Without leather, there would still be a meat industry, pretty much as we know it. That five percent helps the bottom line, and can make the difference between a narrow profit and a narrow loss. But to conflate leather issues with fur issues is misleading. Leather also comes from pigs and horses. Some leather comes from euthanized horses. And to bring the leather from fetal cows into the conversation is a whole different thing. It costs money to impregnate a cow. If a pregnant cow is taken to slaughter preterm, the owner is in poor straits, abandoning an investment he can't afford to maintain., like staying alive this year by eating next year's seed corn. To say the fetal cow suffers the way a veal calf suffers is just breathtaking. Once a being's spirit has flown, what people do with its carcass is of no concern to the animal.
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#72 Old 12-22-2013, 08:56 AM
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In India steer are raised solely for the purpose of their skin and the 2nd largest buyer for india's leather is the US ( second only to Germany). The US leather industry actually is a business on it's own which subsides the beef industry. To portray it as a simple byproduct is misleading. Of course leather comes from many animals, but cattle is the largest. As I mentioned the environmental aspects of leather production as also well documented.

I simply wanted to provide additional information on this point, you are free to diagree:)

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#73 Old 12-22-2013, 09:03 AM
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The environmental costs of leather are most fairly discussed in comparison with the costs of producing faux leather and other products that compete for market share with leather, and which are made of oil and chemicals themselves and don't have the longevity of leather. You'll get no argument from me that the rendering and tanning industries are pretty vile. My college was downwind from a rendering plant that emitted the worst smells imaginable. If it hadn't closed down toward the end if my freshman year, I probably would have transferred to a different school.
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#74 Old 12-22-2013, 09:24 AM
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And you will get no argument about faux leather and the like not being environmentally friendly, lol. I don't think you need to have one or the other, you can choose neither if you are wanting to be more environmentally friendly smiley.gif from the animal cruelty perspective I think we can both agree that one is certainly a better option.

Regardless, I just wanted to toss this info out there in response to your post awhile back and I will get back to my banana chocolate chip muffins smiley.gif

Have a good one!

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#75 Old 12-23-2013, 03:06 PM
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I tried being vegan for six months, and it just didn't work for me. It was too hard to fit it into my lifestyle, especially when it came to socializing with friends and family. Vegetarianism is something I can sustain.

I think part of it is that I'm very shy and just don't like calling attention to myself in social situations. I hated always having to make special requests in a restaurant, etc etc.

I realize others may feel differently about my reasons for making this choice, and that's okay with me; for me, this is just the level I can live with.
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#76 Old 12-23-2013, 03:35 PM
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I tried being vegan for six months, and it just didn't work for me. It was too hard to fit it into my lifestyle, especially when it came to socializing with friends and family. Vegetarianism is something I can sustain.

I think part of it is that I'm very shy and just don't like calling attention to myself in social situations. I hated always having to make special requests in a restaurant, etc etc.

I realize others may feel differently about my reasons for making this choice, and that's okay with me; for me, this is just the level I can live with.

Hi Ashlend. You'll get no criticism from me. Maybe some time in the future, veganism may seem easier for you to take back on board but whatever happens, you have my good wishes. :up:

 

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#77 Old 12-23-2013, 07:11 PM
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Thanks leedsveg smiley.gif

I do practice harm reduction where I can as well (I drink soymilk at home instead of dairy, I won't buy leather shoes or use animal tested cosmetics or cleaning products, etc.) I just could not hack full veganism, maybe someday.
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#78 Old 12-24-2013, 12:44 AM
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I'm still vegetarian, because veganism is better only under specific conditions. As for now, we aren't there yet. By taking away our money, we lose the ability to shape all those animals future and change things for the better. What the outcome would be, if we all turn into vegans now? Cows would live happily ever after? If the crisis comes to the company, people are fired, and those who remain must work much harder to sustain themselves. The same will happen to cows, just the weaker will go sooner to the slaughter-house, the stronger will be abused more. There be less and less cows, but more and more suffering, that would stop only when the last cow will die. We'd created them, we must take responsibility for them, and that means creating better conditions, not turning away from them. You don't fight with slavery by killing off the slaves. For now our money are needed to promote those who treat them fairly, and only when we establish much needed changes with clear conscience we all could turn into vegans.

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#79 Old 12-24-2013, 07:59 AM
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And you will get no argument about faux leather and the like not being environmentally friendly, lol. I don't think you need to have one or the other, you can choose neither if you are wanting to be more environmentally friendly smiley.gif from the animal cruelty perspective I think we can both agree that one is certainly a better option.

Regardless, I just wanted to toss this info out there in response to your post awhile back and I will get back to my banana chocolate chip muffins smiley.gif

Have a good one!

VeganTigress


Have a good one too!

 

It's a hard question to research properly, about how much leather used here comes from animals that were raised solely for their skin. I've written about why it makes no economic sense to do that. Though it might make economic sense to round up free-roaming pastured cattle with no owners to claim them. If steers have owners, they'll end up as beef, way more often than not.

 

Pretty much all that's available online about India and leather is from AR advocacy writers, and there's a lot of inconsistency between one article and another on the particulars. Some of this is because different articles were written at different times, and the actual situation is a moving target. There's inconsistency especially about what individual writers mean by "exclusively for leather." Especially when they are talking about spent dairy cows at the slaughterhouse. Of course dairy cows in India spend their productive lives making milk for ghee, paneer and yogurt, etc. Pin it down, and what it means is that in India, the carcasses of spent dairy cows are rarely, though increasingly, processed into ground beef or pet food or broth, as they are here in the US.

 

India and China both have burgeoning beef industries, so I have to maintain that's where their steers are increasingly headed at the end. India's Muslim population (20 percent of India) eats beef, as do India's Pakistani neighbors, not to mention nonreligious cultural Hindus who are not Brahmin, especially if they've spent significant time living abroad. India also imports some raw cowhides and exports them as finished leather; I don't know about China. Some of the work done on cowhides exported from the US and Australia is likely done in India and China. It's a massive and moving picture, hard to pin down, and hard to find current information from a nonbiased source. In the aggregate, global leather is a byproduct of global beef. The reason I'm not characterizing it as "only a byproduct" is that byproducts are important too, especially major byproducts; they just don't run the show the way primary products do. Demand for leather doesn't impact the price of beef. Demand for beef drives the price of leather.

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#80 Old 12-24-2013, 12:33 PM
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If the world turned vegan, we would simply stop breeding farmed animals for the purpose of exploiting them.



Your argument seems to be that since we started exploiting cows (domestication), we now owe it to existing and future cows to continue exploiting them.

 


No, my argument is, since our ancestors started exploiting cows, destroyed their natural habitats, and changed them so much, we now owe it to existing animals to continue sustaining them, until we change everything back and they would be able to survive for themselves. It won't happen overnight, and it needs money. The money from selling their milk for example. Is it so bad? Is it better to kill them all instead? Do you know what symbiosis is? Why are you assuming that anything we do is/will be just exploitation of them? And please explain, what will happen to existing animals if we suddenly would stop breeding them, maybe I don't grasp something?

The wild cow was the auroch, which has been extinct for maybe 10,000 years. I don't think anything resembling a domestic cow could be made to survive in the wild as its auroch ancestor could, not the way bison or water buffalo can.  They'd be sitting ducks against the elements and against their predators. Their only hope would be for them to genetically merge with bison and such, as dogs sometimes merge with  wolf packs. This wouldn't do anything good for the bison species.

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#81 Old 12-24-2013, 01:12 PM
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The wild cow was the auroch, which has been extinct for maybe 10,000 years. I don't think anything resembling a domestic cow could be made to survive in the wild as its auroch ancestor could, not the way bison or water buffalo can.

 


It's not true, the last auroch was killed in 1672 in Poland, so less than 350 years ago, and their extinction was caused by excessive hunting. And since we all will be vegans, nobody would hunt them, so they will have a great chance to survive.

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#82 Old 12-24-2013, 01:56 PM
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It's not true, the last auroch was killed in 1672 in Poland, so less than 350 years ago, and their extinction was caused by excessive hunting. And since we all will be vegans, nobody would hunt them, so they will have a great chance to survive.

My mistake! I can't even find my source for that, which I looked up less than a year ago. In any case it's been extinct for hundreds of years now. At some point taking genetic information from bones might let scientists bring them back, but it sounds like their only living direct descendants are domesticated cattle, which cannot survive in the wild. There's no bringing back wild instincts once they're gone, I think. Absent some sophisticated yet-to-be-developed technology. Would you bring resources to bear to revive the auroch? I mean if there were once again available expanses for them to live?

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#83 Old 12-24-2013, 02:41 PM
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My mistake! I can't even find my source for that, which I looked up less than a year ago. In any case it's been extinct for hundreds of years now. At some point taking genetic information from bones might let scientists bring them back, but it sounds like their only living direct descendants are domesticated cattle, which cannot survive in the wild. There's no bringing back wild instincts once they're gone, I think. Absent some sophisticated yet-to-be-developed technology. Would you bring resources to bear to revive the auroch? I mean if there were once again available expanses for them to live?

 


Sorry, I wasn't clear enough, I don't want to revive aurochs. Yes, domesticated cattle cannot survive in the wild, YET. Wild instincts are stronger than we think, there's at least one example that this is possible (European Bison). As I said before, it can't be done overnight, it needs time and money, but we should at least try, the only other option if we don't want to breed them is to kill them all, and I will never agree to that.
Merry Christmas smiley.gif

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#84 Old 12-24-2013, 05:23 PM
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Seasons Greetings to all you vegetarian guys on VB

 

As a vegan, I'm reading the posts (in the Vegetarian Support Forum) on the rationale for being vegetarian rather than vegan, with interest, even though I'm not able to contribute.

 

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#85 Old 12-25-2013, 03:03 AM
 
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This thread is a hoot!
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#86 Old 12-25-2013, 07:51 AM
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Seasons Greetings to all you vegetarian guys on VB

 

As a vegan, I'm reading the posts (in the Vegetarian Support Forum) on the rationale for being vegetarian rather than vegan, with interest, even though I'm not able to contribute.

 

Leedsveg

Ohhhhhhhh..... yeah.

 

Can we move this to compost or something else? You know it's gonna get badder...:popcorn:


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#87 Old 12-25-2013, 07:55 AM
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I can't speak for others, but I promise to behave well smiley.gif

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#88 Old 12-25-2013, 12:19 PM
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Ohhhhhhhh..... yeah.

 

Can we move this to compost or something else? You know it's gonna get badder...:popcorn:

The question itself is lie. We can't be either. Following the Truth would have avoided it entirely. The question could be better phrased as, 'Why do you choose to eat diary or eggs?' To me a vegetarian diet is a vegan diet and a lacto or lacto-ovo vegetarian diet is just that. It all depends on what Truth the original poster had intended. The topic itself does not say. It's missing that part and implying a semantical lie. Who knows, but the original poster was really asking, but them? At face value, the person has not yet learned better skills at asking honest questions. This is pretty common given this messed up world we have been raised in. However, they are Most Important.  geloofsverzaker states non-judgmental way...well the only Way to that is with the Truth. There is no such thing as a person being either. We are people, Life, Most Important, and Equal. People are not their actions. Perhaps, "Why do you choose a vegan lifestyle over a lacto-ovo vegetarian lifestyle?

 

I agree that it was compost. It isn't now. I think it should stay up as an example of acknowledging that the topic is a lie and and what the proper correction is. We can't be vegans or vegetarians.  geloofsverzaker can reword the question. These sorts of lies are for those living in lies. We can choose to live in the Truth. We have the gifts. We should use them.

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#89 Old 12-25-2013, 03:07 PM
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Merry Christmas! While it may surprise you all, this thread has gone off track yet again! Fear not, I am a committed sort and deleted all off topic posts.

To clarify, this is in the vegetarian support sub forum. Lacto-ovo vegetarians may post threads here about their choices to stay l/o with Veganism NOT as their final goal. They may not even be here for ethical reasons. For that reason, vegans may NOT come in here and make vegetarians feel bad for their choices. End of story. Just like vegetarians can't go into the vegan subforum proclaiming the benefits of eggs.

If it is so desired, please feel free to begin an "Ethics of dairy/keeping cows" thread in the heap.

There you may argue your brains out.

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#90 Old 12-25-2013, 03:33 PM
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By Halves's Avatar
 
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Originally Posted by DavidW View Post
 

The question itself is lie. We can't be either. Following the Truth would have avoided it entirely. The question could be better phrased as, 'Why do you choose to eat diary or eggs?' To me a vegetarian diet is a vegan diet and a lacto or lacto-ovo vegetarian diet is just that. It all depends on what Truth the original poster had intended. The topic itself does not say. It's missing that part and implying a semantical lie. Who knows, but the original poster was really asking, but them? At face value, the person has not yet learned better skills at asking honest questions. This is pretty common given this messed up world we have been raised in. However, they are Most Important.  geloofsverzaker states non-judgmental way...well the only Way to that is with the Truth. There is no such thing as a person being either. We are people, Life, Most Important, and Equal. People are not their actions. Perhaps, "Why do you choose a vegan lifestyle over a lacto-ovo vegetarian lifestyle?

 

I agree that it was compost. It isn't now. I think it should stay up as an example of acknowledging that the topic is a lie and and what the proper correction is. We can't be vegans or vegetarians.  geloofsverzaker can reword the question. These sorts of lies are for those living in lies. We can choose to live in the Truth. We have the gifts. We should use them.

 

 

Maybe the question could have been phrased in the manner you suggest but as I happen to be a vegetarian that does not eat eggs or dairy I interpreted the question as it was written. So did the o/l vegetarian respondents and those in between thereby including views from a wider section of the veg*n spectrum.

 

If you are interested in answers to a different question you could start your own thread but be aware that if it asks about o/l vegetarian vs vegan you would be excluding those of us that are neither.

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