My son wants me to take him fishing - VeggieBoards
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#1 Old 06-12-2013, 01:42 PM
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I've been vegetarian (lacto-ovo) for a little over 10 years. My family (wife, song & daughter) are fully aware of why I am vegetarian (no killing) but are omnis themselves. One of the main things that made me veg was the experience of having shot a bird in my teens and picking the warm body up - I didn't turn veg at the time but it was definitely something that has stayed with me for life.

 

I have made a point of making sure my kids identify meat with the animal they are eating so that they know that the bacon they eat is the flesh of a pig etc but I also want them to make their own decision if they want to be veg*n and do it for the right reasons, not because I forced them to. Personally, I don't have a problem with others eating meat and actually am supportive of those who hunt for meat and fish vs buying from a battery farm (but am absolutely against hunting/fishing for sport).

 

Anyway, a couple of my kid's friends have been taken out fishing by their Dads and now my son (7 year old) is asking me to take him out fishing. I'm a little torn here - I want my son to experience fishing and I want him to see and feel what he has caught (and killed - we will not fish for sport, he must consume what he catches) and be 100% hands on in the whole process so that he can "look the fish in the eye" when he kills it. To do this, I'll have to be with him and I feel like I would be condoning the activity if I went along with it. However, I was omni for 28 years and I almost feel bad that my son is not getting to experience some things because of my personal choices.

 

Have any of you been in similar situations? What did you end up doing?

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#2 Old 06-12-2013, 01:48 PM
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Why cant you go for a nature walk with cameras instead? The soul purpose of fishing is to kill an animal, and whether you eat it or not doesn't change the simple fact they you set out for the specific purpose of ending a life. "Sport" fishing is the same. I would explain to my son, if I had one, that I don't believe it recreational to kill something.

Also, peer pressure is hardly a good reason. Just because other kids are doing it with their families does not mean that he has to do it, it might be time for a lesson on peer pressure.

And as for the justification on "looking the fish in the eyes" as he kills it and rips it's guts out, I don't get the lesson you intend on teaching him from that, it sounds sick.

Why not get a book of local edible flora and go pick berries or something? Or take photos? There are a lot of ways for parent-child bonding in nature that don't involve the explicit intent to end a life.

Depending on where you live there may be hatcheries where you can watch the fishies get hatched and swim around the nursery before they get released.

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#3 Old 06-12-2013, 02:17 PM
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#4 Old 06-12-2013, 03:14 PM
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I took my 8 year old out foraging for wild edibles. He had a blast! I plan to take him many more times until I'm confident he can identify a variety of edible plants himself.

 

If he expresses any desire to fish or hunt though, I'm sending him to my step-brother. He actually eats what he kills and I agree with the above poster....it IS a survival skill. I'm perfectly capable of hunting/trapping/fishing, but I don't want to have to do it just to teach him a skill he may or may not ever need to use.

 

I think hunting can sometimes help make the connection in people, but not so much with fishing. Lots of people, including kids, just don't feel the same type of empathy for a cold, slimy fish vs a cute, furry rabbit or deer.

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#5 Old 06-12-2013, 03:25 PM
 
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 However, I was omni for 28 years and I almost feel bad that my son is not getting to experience some things because of my personal choices.

 

 

I don't have children so I have no idea what it's like to be in that position and am not going to tell you what to do. I personally could not take someone fishing because it would make me feel too guilty and I would find it distressing. However, I have never been in any kind of parental position, let alone one involving a conflict with my own beliefs.

 

What I did want to say was that I don't think you should feel bad about your vegetarianism having an impact on your son. Firstly because I think it has to be better to preach no harm than harm, then let individuals make their own decision when the time comes. But more generally because ALL parents inflict their beliefs on their children. Surely the most sensible way to parent is to raise your children in a way that fits in with what you believe to be right? Important aspects of a parent's identity are always going to filter down to their kids - be they religious, political, behavioural or otherwise. If I have children I will encourage them to be their own people and always think for themselves, but they will know what I think about fundamental issues. I don't think anyone should ever feel guilty about doing what they think is right.

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#6 Old 06-12-2013, 04:05 PM
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I wouldn't do it. No need to put the fish through that just so he can "experience it.", that's not fair to the fish. It's like telling someone that they need to kill a cow in order to understand the death involved. Ultimately you are your own person too, and you have the right to refuse to do something with your child that you find unnaceptable. It's like how many kids will come running up and say "but so and so's parents let them do this!!!" and then their parents hampering down, saying that they won't be doing that and why. "But annie's mom let's her go out to the mall by herself!" "But I'm not comfortable with you doing that till you are older." (just an example) I know my mom refused me some of the things my friends were allowed to do.

 

There are many other things that you can do with your kid that can involve fish, without harming them. I don't normally support seaworld but maybe an aquarium that does a lot of teaching to the kids about the fish? Maybe you guys can have a nice fish ([preferabbly "resuced) pond and he can admire the fish? 

 

I went fishing as a young kid unfortunately. Just because I had that experience, doesn't mean I think others should be entitled to have a similar experience anymore. It's horrible and I can't argue for anyone doing that.

 

I understand that you don't want to be "pushy" with your lifestyle, but at the same time, there is something to be said for some compassionate education.

 

Let me ask you another question. Are you sure your kids "really" identify with the animals they eat? Do they really understand the life involved? Have they actually petted cows, chickens, and pigs? If not, I think you should go on a family outting to a farm sanctuary in your area :) 

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#7 Old 06-12-2013, 04:10 PM
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Yes, we don't live in a world where we have to know how to fish to survive BUT it is a survival skill.That's one way you could look at it.

 

 

Knowing how to "steal" from others could be a "survival skill. too. Should we teach kids to do that maybe once? 

 

Let me guess, when the apocalypse hits, you are going to walk down to your nearest lake (probably miles away depending on where you live) and fish? No thanks, I have canned veggies downstairs that haven't been exposed to any nuclear fallout.


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#8 Old 06-12-2013, 04:25 PM
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Since your wife is an omni, let her take him fishing.
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#9 Old 06-12-2013, 04:34 PM
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Knowing how to "steal" from others could be a "survival skill. too. Should we teach kids to do that maybe once? 

 

Let me guess, when the apocalypse hits, you are going to walk down to your nearest lake (probably miles away depending on where you live) and fish? No thanks, I have canned veggies downstairs that haven't been exposed to any nuclear fallout.

 

Well actually, yes. If $hit hit the fan, I would use all the skills I have to try to survive. I mean, it depends on the reason for the collapse of society, but if the land and water sources are still ok, I'll be eating from them. The food in your house only lasts so long. I wouldn't jump right to hunting and fishing but if it were a long term situation I would get there eventually. I'm a vegan now because I don't need animals to survive. But if there came a point in time I DID, then yes I would eat animals. I feel in my lifetime I'm going to see one of two scenarios. 1) we seriously overpopulate the earth and everyone will be forced to go veg*n, except maybe those who own land or the wealthy or 2) we do so much damage to the earth we end up regressing as a society. And considering how dependent everyone is on grocery stores and technology, it will be a considerable disaster if we just have a significant climate change. No one will be able to handle it.

 

I'm not a doomsday prepper, but I think there is a half decent chance I'll find myself in a bad situation one day. And as sad as this sounds, I AM raising my child with skills aside from what he needs in the modern world. Will I teach him to steal? No. But that isn't a "skill".

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#10 Old 06-12-2013, 05:31 PM
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Will I teach him to steal? No. But that isn't a "skill".

I think true thieves would disagree. I think you know that too. True thieves learn all the tricks and techniques to deceive you. In a disaster world where resources are scarce, and even now, people might indeed need to know how effectively steal to survive. These people may not know a survival skill of how to grow, fish, or gather food well, but if they have another skill of effectively deceiving people that keeps them alive......How is it not a "skill??"  And of course I'm not advocating it, just like I'm not advocating fishing.

 

It might also be a skill to know how to capture and slaughter now wild chickens to feed yourself in your disaster world. Does that mean you should have your kid capture and slaughter a chicken so they are prepared? NO. No beings should have to die for someone's idea of need for a skill in case sh*t hitting the fan does happen.

 

I've worked with boyscouts with my family and I hated when they would go fishing. They wouldn't slaughter any other animal as a "skill" because of course too many people would complain, and I'm sure even many kids themselves would, but I guess when you don't see fish as sentient beings, therein lies the problem.

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#11 Old 06-12-2013, 05:59 PM
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I was never in this situation but if I were no I would not take my son fishing . It is nice to feed fish bread and watch them come up to eat and you get to see schools of them sometimes .... Hooking a fish is torture for them they are still alive on the hook when you take them out of the water.... Try holding your breath underwater till you feel like you are going to explode .... This is just my point of view and you will discover many other views here however in the end it is your call.
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#12 Old 06-12-2013, 06:22 PM
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#13 Old 06-12-2013, 06:32 PM
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If your son knows you're vegetarian and why, it seems he'd understand pretty clearly why fishing wouldn't be your thing. If what he really wants is some special time alone with his dad, canoeing or camping come to mind, or long distance bicycling, with a lot of time built in for quiet conversation.

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#14 Old 06-12-2013, 06:38 PM
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(MOD POST- Edited to remove personal attack.)

And yes when life reverts back to survival of fittest, you can bet I'll be among the fittest.grin.gif

Are you calling 4ever a hypocrit?! Personal attacks are NOT permitted on this board.

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#15 Old 06-12-2013, 06:43 PM
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Has anyone seem the movie Alive? Very sad sad.gif however it was an ultimate lesson on the human survival instinct. And those that did not resort to cannibalism died. This is a true story. I could not ever imagine resorting to something as such to survive. However those with a strong instinct to survive will do whatever it takes .... Those that did not die sad.gif ( I probably will end up being a very healthy meal)
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#16 Old 06-12-2013, 06:59 PM
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Thanks for all the replies. Certainly plenty of perspectives and I'm very glad to see some that are not stereotypical militant Veg*n. I don't want to speak for everyone but I'm sure many of us started off life as omnis and changed at some point and seem to be in denial that the "evils of eating meat" was something that they did for many years without a thought. I was an omni but I know I ate meat (and I enjoyed it) but I don't anymore. But, let me make one thing clear, I am totally against sport killing of any kind - for me, fishing is about catching food.

 

Some of the ideas are great - nature walks with photography in particular (I do like snapping pics).

 

I have fond memories of fishing with my favourite uncle - he's a real outdoors type (totally the opposite of my dad) and although we never caught any fish I enjoyed the whole process - setting up the rods, putting the lure on the line, casting out, bringing it back in full of hope and repeating this over and over again while chatting away. We didn't go fishing many times but it's still something that I would like to experience with my son...

 

EDIT: Please let's not turn this into a fight. I'm happy to see contrasting views, let's all respect that and not criticize, even though we may not agree with the views of others. Part of what's wonderful in this world is that we are all different and that is to be enjoyed, not fought over.

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#17 Old 06-12-2013, 07:00 PM
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Oh please, are you serious!

It's ok for her to attack me and make some ridiculous comparison of a survival skill to stealing, but it's not ok for me to call someone who is a hypocrite a hypocrite?

Defend your friend all you want, what I said is true.Plain and simple.If you like I can link the source of the hypocrisy.

Debating a position is different than name calling. Try defending your point rather than personally attacking the other.

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#18 Old 06-12-2013, 07:01 PM
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Thanks for all the replies. Certainly plenty of perspectives and I'm very glad to see some that are not stereotypical militant Veg*n. I don't want to speak for everyone but I'm sure many of us started off life as omnis and changed at some point and seem to be in denial that the "evils of eating meat" was something that they did for many years without a thought. I was an omni but I know I ate meat (and I enjoyed it) but I don't anymore. But, let me make one thing clear, I am totally against sport killing of any kind - for me, fishing is about catching food.

Some of the ideas are great - nature walks with photography in particular (I do like snapping pics).

I have fond memories of fishing with my favourite uncle - he's a real outdoors type (totally the opposite of my dad) and although we never caught any fish I enjoyed the whole process - setting up the rods, putting the lure on the line, casting out, bringing it back in full of hope and repeating this over and over again while chatting away. We didn't go fishing many times but it's still something that I would like to experience with my son...

You could put a cork on the hook and not use bait :-D
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#19 Old 06-12-2013, 07:12 PM
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MOD POST- Personal attacks and name-calling are is strictly forbidden at VeggieBoards. Any further such abuse will result in theis thread being locked.


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#20 Old 06-12-2013, 07:17 PM
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#21 Old 06-12-2013, 07:38 PM
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Why cant you go for a nature walk with cameras instead? The soul purpose of fishing is to kill an animal, and whether you eat it or not doesn't change the simple fact they you set out for the specific purpose of ending a life. "Sport" fishing is the same. I would explain to my son, if I had one, that I don't believe it recreational to kill something.

Also, peer pressure is hardly a good reason. Just because other kids are doing it with their families does not mean that he has to do it, it might be time for a lesson on peer pressure.

And as for the justification on "looking the fish in the eyes" as he kills it and rips it's guts out, I don't get the lesson you intend on teaching him from that, it sounds sick.

Why not get a book of local edible flora and go pick berries or something? Or take photos? There are a lot of ways for parent-child bonding in nature that don't involve the explicit intent to end a life.

Depending on where you live there may be hatcheries where you can watch the fishies get hatched and swim around the nursery before they get released.

 

I agree with this. Some traditions should be phased out. I was taught to hunt and fish as a boy, and frankly, I hated it.


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#22 Old 06-12-2013, 07:57 PM
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#23 Old 06-12-2013, 08:02 PM
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I was taught to hunt and fish as a boy, and frankly, I hated it.


I'd like to explore this if I may - do you think your current view on life would be different had you not gone through this experience? Was the experience of hunting & fishing something that drove you to become veg*n? Do you think you would have arrived at that conclusion faster or slower had you not had that experience?

 

Perhaps this is at the crux of my quandry - I want my son to experience life, this things that I experienced and gave me the data to make my own conclusions. Being taught has no where near the same effect as learning from experience.

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#24 Old 06-12-2013, 08:51 PM
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I'd like to explore this if I may - do you think your current view on life would be different had you not gone through this experience? Was the experience of hunting & fishing something that drove you to become veg*n? Do you think you would have arrived at that conclusion faster or slower had you not had that experience?

 

I hope I wasn't misleading, but my experiences with hunting and fishing were quite limited. To be honest, those who tried teaching me weren't very good at it themselves. They had never really pursued it, and were only doing it then, I think, because they saw others doing it. It did not have much to do with my going veggie, if any at all. That came when I was in my 40's. I had been homeless for several years, due to an illness that kept me from working. Homelessness showed me that, ultimately, I was alone in life. Only then did I wake up to the idea that I can think for myself, independently from family, friends, organizations, what have you. It was a quest for spirituality that made me decide to become vegetarian, and then vegan.

 

Quote:
Perhaps this is at the crux of my quandry - I want my son to experience life, this things that I experienced and gave me the data to make my own conclusions. Being taught has no where near the same effect as learning from experience.

 

Not being a parent, I hardly feel qualified to offer advice, so I'll just say this: if I was a parent, I believe I would want to teach my children what's right, not what's wrong, and then hope that sometime later they can figure it out for themselves. Does this make any sense? I do not believe I would want my children to go through homelessness, in order to learn how to think. I would want them to have their own experiences, and hopefully, better than mine.

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#25 Old 06-12-2013, 09:05 PM
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OK, you wanted it , here you go.

 

Considering I have seen you( i assume using the word "you" is permitted since it was used to direct a comment toward me) preaching strict vegan beliefs to newbies and then contradicting YOUR own statements by volunteering information which shows you're not as strict as you preach others should be,considering I have seen you insinuate and make ridiculous claims to compare relevant and valid points to some criminal activity.Your input, your ludicrous accusations on what I might do hold no weight.

 

I'm done in this thread, it's nice to know ignorance is allowed to run rampant here and people want to cover up and defend those who are constantly and intentionally offending , inconsistent in their own beliefs , spout off about how you should be doing this and not doing that when in turn they don't always practice what they preach.thumbsdown.gif

 

What ever you do decide SIV , let it be your own decision.You don't need permission from anyone else.Sorry your thread has turned out this way but I can't just allow someone to attack me and my opinion and insinuate the worst of me because they feel they can.

 

Though I have now seen that they can, must be nice to be friends with the mods.

 

No hard feelings here InTransition. I'm sorry you took what I said as an attack. It's not a personal thing,  I just responded to the content and I can be very "questioning" and prying when it comes to getting people to back up what they say. I understand you said you are done in this thread. That's fine, if you want to continue to discuss with me, you can private message me, about it. I don't like to be at odds so much with other members.

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#26 Old 06-12-2013, 09:09 PM
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Siv, 

 

I appreciate the situation you are in. I worked for Parks and Wildlife for years, which is a state agency that promotes nature activities including hunting and fishing.

I will say this, the hunting/fishing culture is strong in some areas and does their best to desensitize people to the violence of their activities. The families that engage in it want to expand their tradition to others, so it would be fairly easy to find someone who will take your son fishing if that is something that he really wants to do. However one thing I worked on when I was with the wildlife dept (before they transferred me so I would quit) was to introduce others to the non-violent ways to enjoy nature such as wildlife watching, kayaking etc. 

If he and his friends have an interest in fish, maybe look at snorkeling? and invite his friends and their families along so they can all experience this great outdoor activity. If they just want to get out on the water go kayaking, boating or even just bird watching by the shore. Getting kids outdoors is so important, and there are so many ways to do it. 

Maybe ask him what he wants to get out of this activity? If he really just wants to be outside, maybe you can satisfy that without compromising your morals. If he really wants to kill a fish, there are others who can do that with him and you don't have to be part of it. 

 

 

I support whatever you decide.

 

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#27 Old 06-12-2013, 09:14 PM
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Thanks for all the replies. Certainly plenty of perspectives and I'm very glad to see some that are not stereotypical militant Veg*n. I don't want to speak for everyone but I'm sure many of us started off life as omnis and changed at some point and seem to be in denial that the "evils of eating meat" was something that they did for many years without a thought. I was an omni but I know I ate meat (and I enjoyed it) but I don't anymore. But, let me make one thing clear, I am totally against sport killing of any kind - for me, fishing is about catching food.

 

Some of the ideas are great - nature walks with photography in particular (I do like snapping pics).

 

I have fond memories of fishing with my favourite uncle - he's a real outdoors type (totally the opposite of my dad) and although we never caught any fish I enjoyed the whole process - setting up the rods, putting the lure on the line, casting out, bringing it back in full of hope and repeating this over and over again while chatting away. We didn't go fishing many times but it's still something that I would like to experience with my son...

 

 

 

I forgot if I mentioned, I often edit my posts a lot. But I was unfortunately really good at catching fish when I was younger. My family took me out fishing a lot and had a good time with me. I think I had a good time too. We even ate the fish we caught with other families. I did start to get into animal rights though in my teens, and considering the fish, I knew i would never go fishing again. Those times in the past may have been fun, but I can't look back on them now saying that I feel same. I feel slightly ashamed for what I did, but as a little kid back then, I have to forgive myself. 

 

I'm a little confused by your last sentence here. In your first post you say you are a vegetarian because of "no killing," but fishing is exactly what that does to the fish, and here now you say it is still something that you'd like to experience with your son. I think you need to look into yourself and work out conflicting feelings. Please consider the fish when considering your own feelings. It seems like you like the feeling of the family bondness and the simple pleasures in life. Nothing wrong with that, but maybe there is another outlet for this other than hurting fish. :)


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#28 Old 06-12-2013, 09:30 PM
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Capstan, we all have our paths to follow and may end up in similar places for completely different reasons. It sounds to me as though you are in a much better place than you once were and I can only be happy for that.

 

Personally, I see nothing wrong with people eating meat. I did it for 28 years! I expect there are very few here who feel the same way.

 

Today, eating meat is wrong for me but I'm not going to force that opinion on anyone, especially my children. I want to equip them to make decisions for themselves. So I would rather my son experiences catching and killing a fish than going through life eating fish from a packet with no real experience of what it takes to take a fish from the water to his plate. If, after he has experienced this, he decides to carry on eating fish then I'm happy for him to do so...

 

 

Edit: I'm now confusing two things - bonding with my son and ensuring he has the right life experience. Let's forget the bonding thing, this can be achieved in many ways as others have pointed out.

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#29 Old 06-12-2013, 09:32 PM
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I hope I wasn't misleading, but my experiences with hunting and fishing were quite limited. To be honest, those who tried teaching me weren't very good at it themselves. They had never really pursued it, and were only doing it then, I think, because they saw others doing it. It did not have much to do with my going veggie, if any at all. That came when I was in my 40's. I had been homeless for several years, due to an illness that kept me from working. Homelessness showed me that, ultimately, I was alone in life. Only then did I wake up to the idea that I can think for myself, independently from family, friends, organizations, what have you. It was a quest for spirituality that made me decide to become vegetarian, and then vegan.

 

 

Not being a parent, I hardly feel qualified to offer advice, so I'll just say this: if I was a parent, I believe I would want to teach my children what's right, not what's wrong, and then hope that sometime later they can figure it out for themselves. Does this make any sense? I do not believe I would want my children to go through homelessness, in order to learn how to think. I would want them to have their own experiences, and hopefully, better than mine.

 

I must say that was the most interesting and somewhat sad thing I have read about you Capstan. o.o


"Why should man expect his prayer for mercy to be heard by What is above him when he shows no mercy to what is under him?" ~Pierre Troubetzkoy
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#30 Old 06-12-2013, 09:48 PM
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 ensuring he has the right life experience. Let's forget the bonding thing, this can be achieved in many ways as others have pointed out.

Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse th two. It's hard for me to discuss because I don't feel like anyone should have to right in their life harm other creatures just to "experience it." Are you afraid of rejection maybe? That if you don't take him fishing, he won't like you? I don't know. All kids are different. I feel like many would respect you if you stayed strong in your convictions and feelings about right and wrong and encouraged them on the right path. 

 

As you already know, I don't find fishing now a necessity or part of a survival skill that needs to be learned necessarily, so to just "go fishing" I would find in the same category as sport, and needless killing so I'm going to leave it at that and I hope you are able to be a really good dad and a positive influence on your kids.

Capstan and Pirate Huntress like this.

"Why should man expect his prayer for mercy to be heard by What is above him when he shows no mercy to what is under him?" ~Pierre Troubetzkoy
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