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#1 Old 03-10-2004, 06:39 PM
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Here's a link that some may choose to ignore, it's quite descriptive in the uses of byproducts used from cows and how widespread it is.



Cows are everywhere



I've been on a quest trying to make my existance as karma free as possible. I've been told that eating ice cream is a horrible sin by a vegan and it's sent me in to studying more about how truly one can be vegan.



I've decided that no one can actually be a vegan unless they grow their own foods and live like the amish. Parts of me think that actually is a really good thing, a commune would be nice!



I've been trying to gather more information about plastics and rubbers, what they are made from. I know that paper money is coated, and that coating is from animal byproducts, as is the coating on photographs. I've bought a digital camera and no longer have real photos made as a result of learning that!



Then we have bleached flour/sugar made with animal bones. I don't see myself ever being so strict as to not eat a pastry or cake because I know not what type of flour and sugar it contains. I think this is one sad truth that I've accepted.



I keep thinking to myself, my choices are for me, and I do what I can within reason. I own a car, the tires have cow byproducts, and who knows what else in the huge machine and fluids.



To my vegan friends, I salute you, your cause is truly a special cause, and mean no ill-will by this post. I take all beliefs seriously, but I'm not afraid to raise concerns. Discussion is what brings about change.

Single vegetarian for 19 years seeks tasty vegetables to devour. Reply only if interested in being consumed whole.
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#2 Old 03-10-2004, 06:45 PM
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Well, it's all about how much you can do, in my opinion. Like you implied, there really is no way to be 100% vegan. Streets are paved with animal products, yet I have to use them!

Raising concerns and questioning is always a good thing as far as I'm concerned.
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#3 Old 03-10-2004, 07:01 PM
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Don't let this be a discouragement..many people have the attitude that if they can't 100% something that is worthless, that simply isn't true. Every life you save is precious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exitof99 View Post

Here's a link that some may choose to ignore, it's quite descriptive in the uses of byproducts used from cows and how widespread it is.



Cows are everywhere



I've been on a quest trying to make my existance as karma free as possible. I've been told that eating ice cream is a horrible sin by a vegan and it's sent me in to studying more about how truly one can be vegan.



I've decided that no one can actually be a vegan unless they grow their own foods and live like the amish. Parts of me think that actually is a really good thing, a commune would be nice!



I've been trying to gather more information about plastics and rubbers, what they are made from. I know that paper money is coated, and that coating is from animal byproducts, as is the coating on photographs. I've bought a digital camera and no longer have real photos made as a result of learning that!



Then we have bleached flour/sugar made with animal bones. I don't see myself ever being so strict as to not eat a pastry or cake because I know not what type of flour and sugar it contains. I think this is one sad truth that I've accepted.



I keep thinking to myself, my choices are for me, and I do what I can within reason. I own a car, the tires have cow byproducts, and who knows what else in the huge machine and fluids.



To my vegan friends, I salute you, your cause is truly a special cause, and mean no ill-will by this post. I take all beliefs seriously, but I'm not afraid to raise concerns. Discussion is what brings about change.

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#4 Old 03-10-2004, 07:15 PM
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Think that in the future you can be 100% vegan (in a very distant future), and that we're just waiting for that situation and meanwhile doing our best.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

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#5 Old 03-10-2004, 08:07 PM
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well, 99% of the products in that article can be obtained from different sources other than animal sources, and many of the ones that can't are unnecesary. anything besides asphalt/cement, fire extinguishers, tires and plywood is 100% avoidable. and perhaps war, but that is not in our hands.



for any medication mentioned, either don't take that medication or find an organic/natural remedy. unless there is no other option, most diseases can be controlled by natural remedies or diet. don't take pills that come in gel caps. request non-animal sutures.



use vegetable based soap. don't wear leather, eat cheese, or play sports that use leather/cow products. they also make synthetic leather which is found in some clothing and sporting goods. buy cruelty-free products that contain no animal by-products. there is even a cruelty free contact lens solution you can get on PETA's website. use a digital camera. use natural fertilizer and plastic buttons. basically, all it really comes down to is reading labels and finding out what things are made of, and avoiding those things you find unethical.



even the example of the pie is avoidable. besides the sugar part, there are many kinds of pie crusts and ice cream that is made without gelatin. and also beet sugar and raw cane sugar is not processed with cow bones. you just have to make your own or find out what is in things before you eat out.



it's true that cow products are used in many things, but it is also true that you can find cruelty-free alternatives to almost all those things. you can be as vegan as you want with a little effort.



julie

"I remember the days when we talked for hours/And we were young, we thought we had superpowers/We weren't our problems, our age or our paychecks/And we weren't taking anybody's $h*t."
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#6 Old 03-10-2004, 08:13 PM
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Sure, I think everyone understands that you can't live in civilized society and remain 100% free from using things that contain animal byproducts. If you pay taxes, a lot of that money is going directly towards subsidizing the meat industry, protecting and requiring animal experiements and so on and so forth. Being perfect isn't the point. Doing our best to reduce the amount of animals we harm through our lifestyle--that is the point.
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#7 Old 03-11-2004, 04:44 PM
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i agree that one can't be "100% vegan." But, i believe that one should strive to do the least harm possible with what they're capable of doing. Perhaps some people only want to eat certain meat and dairy products. Perhaps others can forgo all animal products in their foods, but not in other places. Perhaps others can become "like the amish." it just depends upon the individual, the choices that there making.



for me, the real turnkey is not what the person is doing, but the conscienciousness with which one does somehting. So, not the what, but the why. One can 'be vegan" in conscienciousness, and not be "as vegan" as the next vegan. (like the one who may "be like the amish")



similarly, i don't think in terms of "sin" or even "karma" for that matter. Actually, we're in a bhakti (or devotional) age, so the wages of sin (the effect of karma) is nothing, if we have bhakti (or so Jesus, et al., said. ). Again, we move from the idea of WHAT one is doing or has done to WHY one does it. This makes "being vegan" so much easier than trying to cross out as much karma as possible. As many texts have said (and i'm thinking of a particular upanishad that i can't recall the title of right now), doesn't matter what you do, as long as your heart is focused on righteousness, no harm can come to you--because action and inaction are one, when one is devoted to God and truth (ah! the bhagavad gita!). Ultimately, karma is irrelevant, the actions and inactions (the consequences there in) are merely more tools for learning and developing devotion.



So, eating ice cream is not a sin, depending upon WHY one eats ice cream. or WHY one doesn't eat ice cream.
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#8 Old 03-11-2004, 04:49 PM
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As others have said, it's true that it's virtually impossible to avoid all animal byproducts, but you're doing a lot if you just do the best you can!
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#9 Old 03-11-2004, 07:48 PM
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that bhakti, sin, karma stuff... went right over my head.



But if Bhakti is anything like Bacardi, I say drink up.
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#10 Old 03-11-2004, 08:50 PM
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i agree that it's a hard task to be "100% vegan." I think the difference is in your intent. If you strive to make a big effort to avoid animal products where you can it's a HUGE difference to those who just go through life with their heads down not even giving a second thought about it.
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#11 Old 03-11-2004, 11:44 PM
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"So, eating ice cream is not a sin, depending upon WHY one eats ice cream. or WHY one doesn't eat ice cream."



Reasons that I ate ice cream:

1. Chocolate Velvet

2. New York Fudge Chunk

3. French Vanilla



Sinful reasons, Zoe?
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#12 Old 03-11-2004, 11:50 PM
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Ultimately, once you've removed animal products from your diet and wardrobe, you've made the biggest difference you're likely to make through your choice of consumer products. Amplified across millions of people, that's a lot of lives saved, even if all of us continue to use computers and so forth.
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#13 Old 03-12-2004, 01:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Exitof99 View Post

I've been told that eating ice cream is a horrible sin by a vegan and it's sent me in to studying more about how truly one can be vegan.





Dairy eating vegan = vegetarian.



One can discuss how vegan one can be, but dairy icecream?



Have you ever had toffuti ice ?
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#14 Old 03-12-2004, 01:38 AM
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Cattle byproducts, simply put, are one of the glues that hold together the industrialized world.



This is untrue.



It's not like we HAVE to use animal products in all of the things mentioned. What we do, rather, is to find ways to use the byproducts of animal agriculture. These things are often just a way to dispose of the remains, which otherwise would account for huge amounts of rotting garbage. There is always specific research going on with the sole purpose to find more ways of using animal agriculture byproducts. Not because they are needed, but because they are there and need to be disposed of. Pretty upside down, but in the end not surprising at all.



We don't need the cow for all these things. But we DO have to come up with ways of using every last piece of the her, beacuse we want to eat (some of) her flesh and wear her skin.
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#15 Old 03-12-2004, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
The root gland of the tongue yields pregastric lipase, which is used in cheese production as a curdling agent.



Wow ... Glad I don't eat cow cheese.
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#16 Old 03-12-2004, 06:01 AM
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Just do the best you can
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#17 Old 03-12-2004, 08:09 AM
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Hmmmm...we've had this conversation many times. I think many of us think you should just do your best. Obviously you can't avoid all animal suffering. But you can stop participating in a system that is cruel to animals to the best of your abilities.



Frankly I think that doing that is enough. As we like to tell the children at school. "Your best will always be good enough."



B



B
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#18 Old 03-12-2004, 11:31 AM
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Consuming milk is not a "sin," it's just a bad idea, for a number of reasons.
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#19 Old 03-12-2004, 11:41 AM
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To some, it might be a "sin". I think that is for each individual to figure out, so long as they don't decide to push that off on others.



Anybody who uses less animal products is ultimately impacting the world in a positive way. We just all have our limits as to how far we are willing/able to go.



As for dairy products (or whatever), ikf it feels like a bad idea to you, then it probably is.
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#20 Old 03-12-2004, 12:14 PM
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For me, my veganism simply means choosing the most ethical, respectful and compassionate decision in any given situation, no matter how small or large, not only involving animal suffering, but also taking into account human rights, the environment and my own physical and mental well-being



There is no set of regulations or 'vegan rules' you can follow since no one can be 100% vegan. For me, it's more important to treat the world with respect and compassion, and all other ethical considerations will follow



"Be the change you wish to see in the world" - Ghandi
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#21 Old 03-12-2004, 12:51 PM
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Here's what amazes me: How and Why do we figure out that all these parts of a cow can be used for so many things? I mean, we've been making cheese for centuries...when did someone come up with the bright idea of putting something from a cow's tongue or stomach in cheese...cheese wasn't always made that way.



I don't know where we come with these ideas.
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#22 Old 03-12-2004, 11:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thulcandra View Post

To some, it might be a "sin". I think that is for each individual to figure out, so long as they don't decide to push that off on others.



True enough, I suppose. I personally think the idea of considering something a "sin" is harmful, though.



Knee-jerk reaction to a religious term...
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#23 Old 03-13-2004, 10:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clairebear View Post

Here's what amazes me: How and Why do we figure out that all these parts of a cow can be used for so many things? I mean, we've been making cheese for centuries...when did someone come up with the bright idea of putting something from a cow's tongue or stomach in cheese...cheese wasn't always made that way.



I don't know where we come with these ideas.



I think it's amazing everything that we have around us came from similar unusual expirements. Did you know what natural resource nylon, my favorite fabric ; ), came from?



Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Coal




How about rayon?



Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Wood




Both are created by using some acid or something to seperate a gummy substance that is spun it to threads.

Single vegetarian for 19 years seeks tasty vegetables to devour. Reply only if interested in being consumed whole.
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#24 Old 03-14-2004, 02:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clairebear View Post

Here's what amazes me: How and Why do we figure out that all these parts of a cow can be used for so many things? I mean, we've been making cheese for centuries...when did someone come up with the bright idea of putting something from a cow's tongue or stomach in cheese...cheese wasn't always made that way.



I don't know where we come with these ideas.



At one time, the family cow was your meat for that year. Waste not, want not....
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#25 Old 03-14-2004, 02:20 AM
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True enough, I suppose. I personally think the idea of considering something a "sin" is harmful, though.



Knee-jerk reaction to a religious term...



Those kind of reactions will make you go blind, you know...
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#26 Old 03-14-2004, 10:36 AM
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I agree that there are no real 100% vegan products.

I have tried to only buy items that contain no dairy

or animal derived ingredients but if you make a mistake

then you just move on. I think that it is a far better thing

that we may buy something with an animal derived vitamin

or something mistakenly than if we were all still eating

the actual animal. I try my best every day and that is all

we can do. It is good enough as Bethanie has stated.

Shannon
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