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#1 Old 06-23-2011, 02:04 AM
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hello all,

i want to post that i am not trying to ruffle any feathers or pizz anybody off. and i COMPLETELY respect your life decisions.

i have been raised in a country family where hunting and fishing was normal life. But, i am always trying to expand my horizons,so i figured i would ask you guys/gals, why is hunting/fishing so horrible if our ancestors literally needed to to survive?? i would just like some insight from a culture that i don't understand.
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#2 Old 06-23-2011, 02:30 AM
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This forum is for vegetarians or people who are actively working towards being one. That is listed in the requirements you are to read before you even make an account. If you are not already vegetarian or aiming to be one, this is not the forum for you.

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#3 Old 06-23-2011, 02:42 AM
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i dont mean to be a pain in this forums a$$ but, where should i go with questions like this??
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#4 Old 06-23-2011, 02:47 AM
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Why do you need an answer from any of us? Just put yourself in the place of the fish or the deer and ask yourself how you'd like it.

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#5 Old 06-23-2011, 02:56 AM
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you could ask "why is shooting people wrong, when it was alright in world war 2?"

our ancestors had few options when it came to providing food and cloths for themselves, where as people in developed countries have a lot more choice, generally.

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#6 Old 06-23-2011, 02:58 AM
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Why do you need an answer from any of us? Just put yourself in the place of the fish or the deer and ask yourself how you'd like it.

to this i will respond with population control. asian carp i my part of the country are literally taking over the native species. so, is it wrong to try to irradicate this invasive species?? or the fact that deer are so over populated that they reproduce/imbreed, and create a much weaker and more unstable and desiese infested generation of deer which will ultimately suffer much more.

again, people, i am just trying to gain an insight into a culture that i am not formiliar with.
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#7 Old 06-23-2011, 03:01 AM
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Originally Posted by questionmark View Post

hello all,

i want to post that i am not trying to ruffle any feathers or pizz anybody off. and i COMPLETELY respect your life decisions.

i have been raised in a country family where hunting and fishing was normal life. But, i am always trying to expand my horizons,so i figured i would ask you guys/gals, why is hunting/fishing so horrible if our ancestors literally needed to to survive?? i would just like some insight from a culture that i don't understand.

Unfortunately you're gonna get banned here because this is a support forum for vegetarians only, BUT I will totally answer your question.

You said it yourself, our ancestors needed to hunt and fish to survive. We live in a world where we have plenty of other options and since animals can feel pain and fear it's wrong to kill them just for the taste. That's the vegetarian viewpoint, hope it helps.

"If we could live happy and healthy lives without harming others... why wouldn't we?" - Edgars Mission
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#8 Old 06-23-2011, 03:08 AM
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why is hunting/fishing so horrible if our ancestors literally needed to to survive??

Well, if you want to behave like your ancestors, you should go way back and look at australopithecus (not sure about the spelling, sorry) and previous humans, who were actually frugivores and rarely, if at all, ate meat. Most of their animal protein came from insects, and most of their protein came from fruits, leaves and such.

Besides, justifying eating meat, wich nowadays is done buy going to the supermarket or a butcher to people hunting to survive is, sorry if I sound aggressive, beyond ridiculous. The context is so different, you can't compare both, you can't compare a situation of survival to eating meat 3 times a day !

And hunting/fishing is horrible because it makes beings suffer and eventually die. If suffering and death are not horrible for you, I wonder what could be.

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#9 Old 06-23-2011, 03:12 AM
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As for population control, there are other methods beside killing them.
(and we should also ask ourselves how the carps came in a place where they never would have come by themselves...)

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#10 Old 06-23-2011, 03:14 AM
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Also, there's a big big difference between the way we farm animals in factories and people hunting and fishing to survive.

Check out this video, it might give you some insight into standard farming practices today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32IDVdgmzKA

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#11 Old 06-23-2011, 03:28 AM
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to this i will respond with population control.

Question: Which is the most invasive species in the history of life on this planet?
Answer: Homo sapiens.

In case you don't know what Homo sapiens is, take a look in the mirror. And then think about what can be done to curb the population of this animal that has infested every corner of the globe causing mass extinctions, deforestation, and desertification.

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#12 Old 06-23-2011, 03:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by questionmark View Post

i have been raised in a country family where hunting and fishing was normal life. But, i am always trying to expand my horizons,so i figured i would ask you guys/gals, why is hunting/fishing so horrible if our ancestors literally needed to to survive?? i would just like some insight from a culture that i don't understand.

What do the actions of our ancestors have to do with modern humans? What else do we find a bit unacceptable did our ancestors do that we don't now? Rape, murder, cannibalism, slavery, etc.

Our ancestors did consume animal products, but can you actually justify the 'literally needed to to survive' part? How far back do you have to go to determine if it's really 'literally needed'?

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to this i will respond with population control. asian carp i my part of the country are literally taking over the native species. so, is it wrong to try to irradicate this invasive species??

So do you think it's acceptable to eradicate invasive species?

Humans are an invasive species. Do you feel it's acceptable to eradicate humans? Or is it that humans get a free pass and we can simply put that label on other species and find it acceptable to eradicate them?

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or the fact that deer are so over populated that they reproduce/imbreed, and create a much weaker and more unstable and desiese infested generation of deer which will ultimately suffer much more.

Oh really? Do you have documented, supporting evidence? How is hunting down the larger, stronger members of a species, going to help that? What did the deer do before humans?

I believe everything.
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#13 Old 06-23-2011, 03:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Fushichô View Post

As for population control, there are other methods beside killing them.

Reason with them until they go away?

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(and we should also ask ourselves how the carps came in a place where they never would have come by themselves...)

I blame the british.

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why is hunting/fishing so horrible if our ancestors literally needed to to survive??

Our ancestors didn't have the amazingly productive agricultural system we have - they didn't have as much choice as we have now. I think now that we have other options, it'd be wrong not to take them.

If I was where I would be, then I'd be where I am not, here I am where I must be, where I would be I cannot.
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#14 Old 06-23-2011, 03:41 AM
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Reason with them until they go away?

That's an efficient one, yes. It just take some time, some boars can actually be quite stubborn. And squirrels too.


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I blame the british.

That is actually my motto. Well, mine is "Blame Sarkozy" since I'm French, but Blame the Brits works just as well.

Edit: typo

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#15 Old 06-23-2011, 03:52 AM
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Originally Posted by questionmark View Post

hello all,

i want to post that i am not trying to ruffle any feathers or pizz anybody off. and i COMPLETELY respect your life decisions.

i have been raised in a country family where hunting and fishing was normal life. But, i am always trying to expand my horizons,so i figured i would ask you guys/gals, why is hunting/fishing so horrible if our ancestors literally needed to to survive?? i would just like some insight from a culture that i don't understand.


Does it really matter that much what our ancestors did to survive? There were probably periods in time where rape was necessary biologically for some small tribes in Africa to survive or something. No modern person would use that as a justification for rape would they?


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This forum is for vegetarians or people who are actively working towards being one. That is listed in the requirements you are to read before you even make an account. If you are not already vegetarian or aiming to be one, this is not the forum for you.


I actually feel there should be a section where we're allowed to debate omnis who aren't necessarily friendly... I know not only from personal experience but from various accounts from other people who leaflet or table that many times you can be approached by a hostile person and they can walk away respecting or even embracing vegetarianism.

So bring 'em on. My mind is ready. My body is ready. It's clobberin' time.

Tam! RUGH!
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#16 Old 06-23-2011, 11:30 AM
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i have watched all of the meet your meat youtube videos and have realized that they are a horrible thing to watch. but to a meat producer, those videos represent the absolute worst case sinario (sp?). that is not common practice in the livestock circle. farmers raise thier livestock with the utmost care because that is how they make a living.

as for population control, what are some other methods of controlling a herd of overpopulated animals??

again, not trying to ruffle any feathers here. if you want me to leave just say so.

BTW: yall got some really cool smileys
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#17 Old 06-23-2011, 11:55 AM
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Ya let's go crap in the woods, marry 12 year olds, and die at 30, and let's get those diseases back and not treat them, because after all, it's what happened with our ancestors.
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#18 Old 06-23-2011, 11:58 AM
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i have watched all of the meet your meat youtube videos and have realized that they are a horrible thing to watch. but to a meat producer, those videos represent the absolute worst case sinario (sp?). that is not common practice in the livestock circle. farmers raise thier livestock with the utmost care because that is how they make a living.

I've heard the argument that ranchers take good care of their livestock because they would not make a profit if they didn't, and that argument isn't convincing. If someone sees animals as food production units, they won't treat them nearly as well as if they cared about those animals as individuals. I can imagine someone having animals, using them in some ways that did not harm them, and genuinely caring about those animals. But how can someone care at all about an animal they deliberately raise to be killed and eaten? A lot of folks have tried to tell me this is possible but none of them made any sense- so I still don't buy it.

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as for population control, what are some other methods of controlling a herd of overpopulated animals??

This is a tough one. You could let predatory animals do what human hunters do now- but the herd animals would still be getting killed (just not by humans any more)- so I don't see how the herd animals would be any better off. Some research is being done on immunocontraception darts which temporarily sterilize deer, squirrels, etc, but this is not yet practical on a large scale. They even tried spaying female deer in one area, which I assume worked- but that would be expensive.

Peasant (1963-1972) and Fluffy (1970s?-1982- I think of you as 'Ambrose' now)- Your spirits outshone some humans I have known. Be happy forever.
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#19 Old 06-23-2011, 12:01 PM
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Does it really matter that much what our ancestors did to survive? There were probably periods in time where rape was necessary biologically for some small tribes in Africa to survive or something. No modern person would use that as a justification for rape would they?

Yeah, I'm not a caveman. I live in buildings, wear clothes, use modern technology. And I realize that I have a choice of what to eat, rather than being forced into eating whatever happens to be available, like my ancestors. That's why I choose a vegetarian diet that's healthier for me, the animals, and the environment.

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I actually feel there should be a section where we're allowed to debate omnis who aren't necessarily friendly... I know not only from personal experience but from various accounts from other people who leaflet or table that many times you can be approached by a hostile person and they can walk away respecting or even embracing vegetarianism.

So bring 'em on. My mind is ready. My body is ready. It's clobberin' time.

That's actually not a bad idea, as long as it's restricted to its own subforum of VB and not allowed to spread to the existing forums.

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i have watched all of the meet your meat youtube videos and have realized that they are a horrible thing to watch. but to a meat producer, those videos represent the absolute worst case sinario (sp?). that is not common practice in the livestock circle. farmers raise thier livestock with the utmost care because that is how they make a living.

Translation: "I've never been within 50 miles of a major commercial farming operation, but I've been brainwashed into thinking that most of them are just like the small family owned farms that I've visited/ seen on TV/read about in kiddie books."

Just google the phrase "factory farm", and you'll find plenty more pictures and videos just like that. If you think it's uncommon, you're mistaken.

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#20 Old 06-23-2011, 12:07 PM
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so, is it wrong to try to irradicate this invasive species??.

Humans are a much more invasive and destructive species. Every animal born has a right to live, and a purpose beyond being eaten.
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#21 Old 06-23-2011, 12:16 PM
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@Fromper.

i apreciate your honest statement of why you are a vegitarian. but, i would appreciate if you wouldnt put words into my mouth (translation). i have been to several large operations, as well as rodeos, where the animals were treated pretty well (considering the ultimate outcome)

@Tom,

the methods of population control that you mentioned are very pricey and for the most part, not feasable(in the forseeable future). if we let preditors "take care" of the population of animals, then we would have an overpopulation of preditors. in my area, we are already having issues with overpopulation of coyotes and whitetail deer.
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#22 Old 06-23-2011, 12:45 PM
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I don't get this 'overpopulation' thing, if there are too many of a certain animal then either it's the fault of humans (for introducing non indigenous species) or it's survival of the fittest in action. It depends on your view point but taking the example of the overpopulation of humans, would it be right to kill some to control the numbers? How do you decide who to kill? The old and weak? Most of the males since one male can impregnate many females? I believe each person has an intrinsic value that's separate from their role as a member of a certain species. I mean the term person to apply to any sentient being. The general rule I live by is that if a practice would be abhorrent if done to humans (like culling to control population) it is also abhorrent if done to members of other species who can hurt and feel just as much as we can.
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#23 Old 06-23-2011, 01:09 PM
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#24 Old 06-23-2011, 04:51 PM
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One thing I forgot to mention about the "population control" argument: if it's so important to control wildlife populations, why were game animals managed for many years in such a way that the "harvest" of animals could be maximized? And why are some game animals raised and then released to be hunted? There are quite a few hatcheries and farms where trout and pheasants are raised for release into the wild. Face it: the reason for hunting is for human enjoyment and the procurement of meat to eat.

Hunting appears to be declining somewhat in popularity, at least in some areas- and in that situation the take may be adjusted to more effectively keep animal numbers below excessive (by our standards) levels.

Peasant (1963-1972) and Fluffy (1970s?-1982- I think of you as 'Ambrose' now)- Your spirits outshone some humans I have known. Be happy forever.
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#25 Old 06-23-2011, 04:54 PM
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farmers raise thier livestock with the utmost care because that is how they make a living.

That is true...

...in the imaginary universe where farmers are not trying to make a profit, which means sacrificing on animal welfare issues.

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#26 Old 06-23-2011, 05:01 PM
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dont mock me. i know alot of livestock farmers, and all of them treat thier animals with the utmost respect. you say that every farmer doesnt care about the animals well being but without the farmer, there would be no chance of survival. plus, we all know that cows and pigs will never be an extinct species because people eat them. if you want to bring back endangered species, then just make a market for them.
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#27 Old 06-23-2011, 05:03 PM
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i know alot of livestock farmers, and all of them treat thier animals with the utmost respect.

We have a fundamental disagreement about the concept of 'respect'.

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you say that every farmer doesnt care about the animals well being but without the farmer, there would be no chance of survival.

Without the farmer, the animals wouldn't have been bred in the first place, just to be exploited for the sake of culinary preferences and habit.

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plus, we all know that cows and pigs will never be an extinct species because people eat them.

I'm not sure what this relates to.

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#28 Old 06-23-2011, 05:09 PM
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=Tom;2921362And why are some game animals raised and then released to be hunted?

Interesting. I've never seen anyone mention that anywhere, yet I once came across a "facility" where I had little doubt that was exactly what was going on there.
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#29 Old 06-23-2011, 05:16 PM
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dont mock me. i know alot of livestock farmers, and all of them treat thier animals with the utmost respect. you say that every farmer doesnt care about the animals well being but without the farmer, there would be no chance of survival. plus, we all know that cows and pigs will never be an extinct species because people eat them. if you want to bring back endangered species, then just make a market for them.

How are you using the word "respect" here? I don't know that those who raise animals to be eaten are sadistic toward their animals, but as I mentioned in my earlier post, I have real doubts that someone can truly respect a creature whom they see as a menu item.

It might be true that an animal who's considered useful by humans will probably not go extinct-but what kind of life will they have? Are you aware of the health problems chickens have because they are bred to lay FAR more eggs than their wild ancestors did- and this drains their bodies of nutrients? Other breeds of domestic animals have their own problems brought on by being bred to have traits which serve some human purpose: difficulty delivering young, for example. Without the farmer, there would be no chance of survival... because domestication has caused them to lose a lot of the characteristics which helped them survive without human assistance.

Peasant (1963-1972) and Fluffy (1970s?-1982- I think of you as 'Ambrose' now)- Your spirits outshone some humans I have known. Be happy forever.
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#30 Old 06-23-2011, 05:19 PM
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Interesting. I've never seen anyone mention that anywhere, yet I once came across a "facility" where I had little doubt that was exactly what was going on there.

There are deer breeding facilities that breed for one quality: size of the male antler rack. These animals are hand-raised, with no fear of humans, and turned over to be "hunted" while fenced in. Taxidermists know these deer, partly from appearance, but also from the tattoos on the insides of their lips. Whatever is wrong with hunts, is 100 times more evil about these canned hunts. One taxidermist posted online that fully half of the deer he was hired to mount had those tattoos inside their lips.
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