Stupid Things Omnivores Say, Version 5.0 - Page 133 - VeggieBoards
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#3961 Old 04-16-2012, 06:01 PM
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That's what my mom always did. Side garden, no fence, let the bunnies and slugs and everything else eat away. She used to move all the bugs over
to the 'bunny garden' from the human garden.


talk about people being divorced from reality. I just can't believe this comment. Yes, this will work with slugs, to an extent, because they walk so slowly and take so long to get from one place to another, and have difficulty walking over certain kinds of terrain. But otherwise, there is no practical way to "move all the bugs over" even if your garden consists of only 9 square feet. For many bugs, there is no practical way to remove them without killing them. For others, their location or their ability to move faster than you, or fly out of your reach, makes it impractical. For example if you've got a tiny caterpillar that has burrowed into the core of an apple, or or plant part, thru a tiny hole on the outside of the apple, and making a big hole filled with caterpillar poop in the middle. And the caterpillar is 1/4 of an inch long. You'd have to remove the apple from the tree, in order to carefully look on all surfaces of the apple, with a bright light, and maybe a magnifying glass, to find the apples that have holes in them, and then cut them open, being careful not to cut the caterpillar, and pick out the caterpillar with your fingers to avoid damaging it. If the hole is near the stem, it may be nearly impossible to identify. Now let's say you have 100 such caterpillars. You have your work cut out for you. If you have aphids, you can't detach them without killing them. Other insects burrow into the roots of plants, you can't reach them without digging up the soil around the plant, until you find the insect.

Furthermore, for many insects, move them nearby, where they can multiply, and they, and soon their children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren, in many more numbers than the number you removed, will fly right back to where you moved them from. Same with rabbits. They will walk over and colonize the original garden. And by providing them with a protected enviroment with abundant food, they will have more progeny, than they would have if they were living in the wild, and struggling to survive on scarce food, and among predators.
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#3962 Old 04-16-2012, 06:15 PM
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Tsk tsk. Grandpa Soilman has failed to answer my question, again. Maybe it's because the answer to that question brings down all the logic behind the moral values he claims to uphold?

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#3963 Old 04-16-2012, 06:24 PM
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By the way, if you think a fence will keep out rabbits - good luck. Rabbits burrow under fences. You may have to bury the bottom of the fence 2 feet below the soil surface. They will also cut thru some kinds of fences with their teeth. They will also wait, in hiding, near a gate, for someone to open the gate long enough to walk thru it. They will stake out the gate for hour after hour, drinking coffee and eating donuts. When someone opens the gate, they dart thru the gate at breakneck speed. People who are not on the lookout for them, won't even notice a rabbit darted past them as they walked thru the gate! That's how fast they are. I kid you not (yes, I'm kidding about the coffee and donuts part). Once they are in the garden, they will find hiding places where it is very difficult to detect them. You may not see them, until their 5 babies have reached adolescence, in a few weeks, and started to be careless about hiding, because they are trying to hookup with adolescents of the opposite sex.
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#3964 Old 04-16-2012, 06:30 PM
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Evasion alert! Evasion alert!

Important questions are still being evaded!

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#3965 Old 04-16-2012, 06:35 PM
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Yes the rabbits did burrow under the fence, and some of the caterpillars and grasshoppers and slugs, etc. did get in the main garden. But my mother was a good steward of her land. She took good care of the soil and was careful about combining and rotating crops, using plants around the garden that deter pests, and was in the garden every day pulling weeds, picking beetles off, and even hand-pollinating some of the crops. Sure, we lost some of the produce to creatures, but with the little 'creature garden', we felt we were sharing, not having to kill everything, and we always had way more veg than we could eat or freeze anyway.
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#3966 Old 04-16-2012, 06:42 PM
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I had a 2000 square foot garden, as much as I could squeeze in on my 1/4 acre lot with house on it, with fairly high yield per square foot, and there is no way I had enough food for all winter. The only thing that lasted all winter was cherry tomatoes that I froze. These were so sweet, that I was able to make sweet tomato sauce out of them, without adding any sweetener. The sweet corn, canteloupe, and edamame were all eaten up, for the most part by me alone, by some time in January. Some of them earlier, I forget which. I tried to make things out of watermelon that I could freeze, watermelon granita, but I didn't really enjoy it. So some watermelon went to waste. The lettuce and endive was only seasonal. Didn't preserve any for the fall and winter. I don't like the way snap peas taste when frozen-thawed, so I only ate them as they produced. Since I grew a trellis varity, they produced over a few weeks, instead of them all being ready to pick at once, the way bush varieties are.

http://shakahara.com/garden6.html

each corn plant averages about 1.5 ears. So 4 blocks times about 44 plants in each block, and 1.5 ears per plant, means about 264 ears. If I ate 3 ears per day, they would last only 88 days, about 3 months. Plants start producing mid July and end late September. 2.5 months. But I remember having frozen corn in October and November, so I must have consumed an average of less than 3 a day.
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#3967 Old 04-16-2012, 06:52 PM
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Awesome garden!
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#3968 Old 04-16-2012, 07:04 PM
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Awesome garden!

Some of the photos are from the garden I had one season, some from the garden I had another season.
The crops are generally not planted in the same spot as the year before, "rotated." So I like to think of the photos as showing 2 different gardens, in the same spot. Also, some photos show what is going on earlier in a season, and some show later.

At any rate, I didn't want to devote space just for insects and animals, even if I thought it were possible, as there was not enough space to feed me.

I was not obsessive about having insect free corn. If there was some damage to the tips of some ears, by ear worms, that was alright with me. But those caterpillars can easily eat 3/4 of an ear, on all your ears, if measures aren't taken to control them. I tried bacillus thuringeniensis, but it did not help at all. I minimized earworm by not planting corn in the same spot, on consecutive seasons, by composting corn stalks away from the area where corn was grown, and by growing varieties with tight husks that resisted earworm invasion. This helped some, but I still needed to use insecticides, if I didn't want more than 1/2 my corn to be lost to earworms. There was one insecticide, Sevin, that I used that I actually began to taste, when I ate the corn, even though i was using it according to directions. I've tasted in in commecial corn too. Not sure if it was the insecticide, or the carrier, that I was tasting. Regardless, I found this very troubling, and switched to pyrethroids (which are considered acceptable for organic gardens in some cases) even tho they were less effective.
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#3969 Old 04-17-2012, 12:57 PM
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Evasion alert! Evasion alert!

Important questions are still being evaded!

^

Maybe please you could finally answer this? It's killing me to not have the conversation finished.

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#3970 Old 04-17-2012, 01:41 PM
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I would rather say 'don't eat' than 'can't eat'......sounds more like I have made the decision.

True but that's one of those things that kind of comes across as rude to some people. I think If someone offers you something non-veg(without any harmful intentions) "Sorry I'm a vegetarian" would be a better choice of words rather than a flat out " I don't eat such and such".






Now, as far as you guy's slug debate goes, as much as we'd like to save every living creature on the planet, if your someone who's growing your own fruits and vegetables, unless your fine with loosing a bunch of money constantly making trips to and from the nursery to buy new plants, your going have to do some pest control, If I don't put a salt barrier around certain types of potted vegetables(green bean plants especially, snails/slugs love to decimate those things), they'll get reduced to twigs within days. I don't take an offensive approach and throw salt on the entire lawn but I always sprinkle salt liberally around the outside the pots with snail-prone plants in them, so that any slugs planning to climb up into pots will get stopped cold. They don't touch certain plant species(strawberries,tomatoes,peppers) so if I find a couple slugs in those pots I usually don't mind since they rarely try to eat them. Bottom line your going to have to do some defensive pest control if you are trying to grow vegetables that also happen to be a fan favorite with snails/slugs.

Ontop of that I'm failing to understand the "growing your own veggies effs up the ecosystem argument". aaannndd, purchasing conventionally-grown vegetables doesn't?? or should we just not eat vegetables? I'm a bit lost on that one. To answer vegkid's question to soilman no you don't need to grow a vegetable patch to survive, you can just go to the grocery store and buy produce sprayed with harsh pesticides. since that is clearly the better option.
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#3971 Old 04-17-2012, 02:29 PM
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Now, as far as you guy's slug debate goes, as much as we'd like to save every living creature on the planet, if your someone who's growing your own fruits and vegetables, unless your fine with loosing a bunch of money constantly making trips to and from the nursery to buy new plants, your going have to do some pest control, If I don't put a salt barrier around certain types of potted vegetables(green bean plants especially, snails/slugs love to decimate those things), they'll get reduced to twigs within days. I don't take an offensive approach and throw salt on the entire lawn but I always sprinkle salt liberally around the outside the pots with snail-prone plants in them, so that any slugs planning to climb up into pots will get stopped cold. They don't touch certain plant species(strawberries,tomatoes,peppers) so if I find a couple slugs in those pots I usually don't mind since they rarely try to eat them. Bottom line your going to have to do some defensive pest control if you are trying to grow vegetables that also happen to be a fan favorite with snails/slugs.

I understand that, but my question to him was whether he absolutely needed to grow the vegetables to survive in the first place. If this is untrue, then his argument of doing what you have to do to eat comes apart. And since he refuses to answer that one question after several days of being asked, it leads me to believe he's either refusing to answer it because he knows his arguments will come apart or he's put me on ignore for acknowledging that his arguments are coming apart.

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Ontop of that I'm failing to understand the "growing your own veggies effs up the ecosystem argument". aaannndd, purchasing conventionally-grown produce sprayed with pesticides doesn't?? I'm a bit lost on that one.

No, it does. Having a garden does eff up the ecosystem in the first place anyways. That I'm with him on. By introducing a non-native species of plant into an environment, you change many things about that environment - for example, the amount of slugs that can thrive in it, since they begin breeding wildly due to the new food source.

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#3972 Old 04-17-2012, 03:00 PM
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surely we affect the ecosystem where ever our food is grown?

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#3973 Old 04-17-2012, 03:01 PM
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vegkid is a secret agent from Monsanto.

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#3974 Old 04-17-2012, 03:06 PM
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I understand that, but my question to him was whether he absolutely needed to grow the vegetables to survive in the first place. If this is untrue, then his argument of doing what you have to do to eat comes apart. And since he refuses to answer that one question after several days of being asked, it leads me to believe he's either refusing to answer it because he knows his arguments will come apart or he's put me on ignore for acknowledging that his arguments are coming apart.


No, it does. Having a garden does eff up the ecosystem in the first place anyways. That I'm with him on. By introducing a non-native species of plant into an environment, you change many things about that environment - for example, the amount of slugs that can thrive in it, since they begin breeding wildly due to the new food source.


Ok but would you rather grow your own organic vegetables sustainably and have to get rid of some pests here and there or buy conventional,pesticide-laden produce? (or I guess you could just choose to not eat, lol)
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#3975 Old 04-17-2012, 04:53 PM
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Ok but would you rather grow your own organic vegetables sustainably and have to get rid of some pests here and there or buy conventional,pesticide-laden produce? (or I guess you could just choose to not eat, lol)

You see, I am a breathitarian.

Actually, no, but I'm not claiming that there isn't any killing of pests in the agricultural business. What soilman was saying simply contradicts his earlier arguments, in other threads for example, where he angrily denounces organic foods because apparently some of them use bone meal and fish meal or something as fertilizer. I refer to that thread by another name, but I won't now because the mods don't like that.
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#3976 Old 04-17-2012, 06:30 PM
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ok this thread has gotten really off topic now lol


On a different note

conversation I had the other day who was arguing about the health of meat,


Me: You know meat is filled with antibiotics right?
Person: Yeah but your talking about the regular meat, what about grass-fed organic meat? I don't like factory farms either
Me: well yeah that would be an exception. So since you eat meat I'm guessing most of your meat comes from grass-fed, organically raised cows.
Person: No it's too expensive.
Me: So you buy conventionally raised meat
Person: Yeah since I can't afford organic meat

-__- no one's willing to sacrifice anything these days, ugh
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#3977 Old 04-17-2012, 06:58 PM
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What Jorjor said, re off-topic-ness! is there a gardening thread, or, like, a debate thread that would be better for this argument?... anyone else hear omnis say anything funny lately?!

Peace & all, I don't wanna shake the beehive... but let's focus, good people! I don't think the gardening debate is uninteresting... but is there a better thread on which to hash it all out? Just a suggestion. :-)
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#3978 Old 04-17-2012, 08:12 PM
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Just an FYI, coffee grounds will keep snails away from your plants. They don't like the caffeine.
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#3979 Old 04-17-2012, 08:27 PM
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Just an FYI, coffee grounds will keep snails away from your plants. They don't like the caffeine.

Yes, my mother did this, and used a water spray bottle with red pepper in it to deter some things, too. And a fake owl on a pole scares the rabbits away.
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#3980 Old 04-18-2012, 09:14 AM
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yeah, I use coffee grounds but I never really tracked whether it helped with anything. I just know it's good for the dirt. I think crushed eggshells up on top of the dirt can also help keep slugs away, but I could be thinking of some other kind of bug, too. I'm kinda tired today.

I just let my boyfriend out to play in the backyard... he sets up a couple of box traps with string and a broken mop handle, and the bunnies stay far away. lol.

edit: I burned pretty bad yesterday, and the only response people could come up with for why was because I don't eat meat. really? it's got nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that I'm a pasty white girl? ugh.

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#3981 Old 04-18-2012, 12:42 PM
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yeah, I use coffee grounds but I never really tracked whether it helped with anything. I just know it's good for the dirt. I think crushed eggshells up on top of the dirt can also help keep slugs away, but I could be thinking of some other kind of bug, too. I'm kinda tired today.

Coffee grounds might work. Eggshells, I don't think so. I remember when I used to be an omnivore and we had snails, feeding them crushed up eggshells was recommended as it was good for their calcium intake and shell health. Might be different for slugs, but they tend to be incredibly similar and would probably eat the same things.

As for another thread, sure, this probably isn't the best place for discussion, though I doubt Soilman would continue the discussion anyway since he seems to be ignoring me.

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#3982 Old 04-18-2012, 03:07 PM
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pennys.. the copper in the pennys repels slugs...

some metals do that..

or maybe it was dimes.. don't remember..


my mom uses salt, but i think that is messed up.
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#3983 Old 04-18-2012, 03:19 PM
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pennys.. the copper in the pennys repels slugs...

some metals do that..

or maybe it was dimes.. don't remember..


my mom uses salt, but i think that is messed up.

Copper doesn't work, I'm quite sure that's a myth. I even proved it once to someone who insisted a snail could be kept inside a ring of pennies by putting a penny right in a snail's path - it just climbed right over it, right on top of it, and didn't recoil like they claimed it would. I got a penny that day because the lady was too grossed out by it being covered in snail slime to take it back.

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#3984 Old 04-19-2012, 10:21 AM
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Well, I am new to this forum, and I have just read the first 20 or so pages of this thread. WOW! Glad I did. I'm glad to know that there are so many of you who deal with the same remarks from FAMILY members! My mom ALWAYS gives me crap about not eating meat. My father-in-law also rolls his eyes, and then will offer me an ostrich patty, and goes on to tell me how lean it is. Gross. No thanks. Very helpful thread, for sure. I guess the trick is not to get into a debate about it. I mentioned something once to my sister-in-law as she was about to bite into a BBQ rib, and she just goes, "Mooooo!" and then took a bite. I am a vegetarian in Houston, Texas.... if that tells you anything. BBQ and Mexican food..... everywhere.
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#3985 Old 04-19-2012, 03:41 PM
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Copper doesn't work, I'm quite sure that's a myth. I even proved it once to someone who insisted a snail could be kept inside a ring of pennies by putting a penny right in a snail's path - it just climbed right over it, right on top of it, and didn't recoil like they claimed it would. I got a penny that day because the lady was too grossed out by it being covered in snail slime to take it back.

maybe it if was a fully copper penny it might work, but our pennies now aren't even a full % copper anymore, are they?

I had a whole bunch of gems for today and I can't remember a single one now. I think it's time for a nap.

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#3986 Old 04-21-2012, 08:52 AM
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Well, I am new to this forum, and I have just read the first 20 or so pages of this thread. WOW! Glad I did. I'm glad to know that there are so many of you who deal with the same remarks from FAMILY members! My mom ALWAYS gives me crap about not eating meat. My father-in-law also rolls his eyes, and then will offer me an ostrich patty, and goes on to tell me how lean it is. Gross. No thanks. Very helpful thread, for sure. I guess the trick is not to get into a debate about it. I mentioned something once to my sister-in-law as she was about to bite into a BBQ rib, and she just goes, "Mooooo!" and then took a bite. I am a vegetarian in Houston, Texas.... if that tells you anything. BBQ and Mexican food..... everywhere.

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#3987 Old 04-21-2012, 09:39 AM
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Welcome to the family of coolest people lives on earth!!!

Thank you!!!
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#3988 Old 04-21-2012, 09:47 AM
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I got a recipe from a cookery website and some of the comments about the recipe were so annoying! Some omni people act like they can't have one effing meat-free meal.
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#3989 Old 04-21-2012, 03:06 PM
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This is more of a stupid thing omnivore's do but ugh....

Just saw the cutest picture of a lady feeding a huge herd of adorable bunnies. Well, it was cute until I realized her jacket had rabbit fur trim and she had rabbit feet hanging from her purse

It wasn't a rabbit farm or anything, just wild bunnies she was feeding, and she was clearly enjoying how sweet and cute they were. How do you not make the connection and realize how wrong it is to wear them? Cognitive dissonance at its finest

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#3990 Old 04-21-2012, 05:19 PM
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This was passed on by a friend who is not vegetarian:

This girl walks around the school cafeteria as an "activist" telling people about how horrible it is to eat meat and why they should become vegetarian...while eating chicken nuggets or fish patties.

It's probably another one of those weird people who don't know what words mean.
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