question (meat substitutes unethical)? - VeggieBoards
Forum Jump: 
Reply
 
Thread Tools
#1 Old 01-03-2004, 12:12 AM
Newbie
 
florida veggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 26
i've been veggie for about two months now. yay!



anyway, i've belonged to another forum for four years but just started posting in the veggie portion of the forum.



a poster brought up this: she says eating fake meat, like boca burgers/gardenburgers/etc., isn't ethical. she says it's just like eating meat ... that it's just a replica. we're not aruging about it or anything but i told her that since i'm new to vegetarianism that i choose to eat fake meat so i can get my proper protein intake.



what are everyone's views on fake meat being unethical to a veggie? just curious ...



btw, she's lacto-veggie. because of her religion, she drinks milk, but from farms that do not slaughter the cows after getting milk from them. (i cannot think right now in which religion holds the cow in high regard ... buddhism?)
florida veggie is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#2 Old 01-03-2004, 12:21 AM
Veggie Regular
 
clairebear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 322
I don't think there's anything ethically wrong with eating "fake meat" It isn't meat...if you chose to go veg*n for ethical reasons, but didn't mind the taste of meat...why wouldn't you eat them?



Haha, that being said, I don't eat them because they remind me of meat. I never really liked the taste of meat, and I have no desire to be reminded of the things I choose not to eat anymore. I will eat them if I visit my grandparents though...its just easier for them, but I would prefer not to have to eat it.
clairebear is offline  
#3 Old 01-03-2004, 12:26 AM
Newbie
 
florida veggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 26
right.



i think it has a lot to do with convenience, too, clairebear. (like with your grandparents.)



and i can totally see why veggies like you do not enjoy fake meat ... because you never enjoyed the taste of meat anyway. that makes total sense.



thanks for answering.
florida veggie is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
#4 Old 01-03-2004, 01:46 AM
Administrator
 
Michael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,873
What specifically is the harm in it? Some people just don't want to admit that they like the taste of meat. And if they truly don't that's fine. But I do. I didn't stop eating meat because I didn't like the taste. Therefore it makes sense that if there were a cruelty-free alternative I would take advantage of it.



And not all people are vegetarian for ethical reasons. Having meat alternatives for people who have gone vegetarian for health reasons is a good thing.

VeggieBoards Alumni Facebook Group

If you're an old time VB'er stop by and say hi!


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Michael is offline  
#5 Old 01-03-2004, 02:03 AM
Veggie Regular
 
raindrop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 236
For me fake meats were a transition food - if I had a craving for meat (usually a craving to relive warm fuzzy moments spent over dead animals - bizarre when I think of it now.)



I spent about a year and a half on them and now don't really eat them anymore. Being vegan makes the packaged stuff hard to take cause there are few without dairy - but I could make my own homemade.



I guess I just sort of phased them out eventually. Certainly, I don't think they are unethical from the stance that they "symbolize" meat - far better to eat the symbolic than the literal.



We ate cake recently with a picture of a horse on it - no one questioned the ethics of that. I wonder if your friend would.
raindrop is offline  
#6 Old 01-03-2004, 02:14 AM
Veggie Regular
 
pinkpunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 682
I don't see how it could be seen as un-ethical.

They don't sell a huge range of them where I live, but I love most of the ones i've tried! I'm like the opposite of most people though cause I didn't even really try any meat subs until I had been vegetarian for about 6 years. To me they don't really don't taste that much like meat, I never liked the taste of meat much and hardly ate any when I was a meat-eater.
pinkpunch is offline  
#7 Old 01-03-2004, 02:20 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Oatmeal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,778
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida veggie View Post

she says eating fake meat, like boca burgers/gardenburgers/etc., isn't ethical. she says it's just like eating meat ... that it's just a replica.



FWIW, I don't think there's anything unethical about taking plant foods and combining / processing them to get different tastes or textures. After all, that's what we're doing with meat too. The unethical thing is the meat, not the processing. Replace it with plant ingredients and you get rid of the ethics problem.



To me, a boca burger and a beef burger are very similar things, only the ingredients are different. I kind of like the concept of a burger (a patty between the two halves of a bun). It's easy to prepare, hold in your hand, and eat. That's what a burger, to me, is about. I just choose to buy plant based patties for it.



Similar things can be said about sausages, deli slices, pizzas, burritos, pastas, etc. These are all ways (or "concepts") of preparing and consuming food, and to say that they have to contain meat to be real, or that the plant based ones are "replicas", is to not understand this fact. "Fake meats" don't replicate the meat itself, but they replicate the spices, textures, and shape of processed foods with meat as one of their ingredients. A boca burger doesn't replicate the raw bloody ground beef, but creates the spiciness, texture and shape of a hamburger.



And to say these products are equally unethical to their meat based counterparts, is to not understand ethics at all.





ETA: congrats on leaving the dark side and going veggie! It's much better over here, isn't it?
Oatmeal is offline  
#8 Old 01-03-2004, 01:42 PM
Veggie Regular
 
zoebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,451
she's very likely hindu and getting her milk from a hindu ashram/farm where cows are well treated and often worshipped.



i do not find it unethical to take plant matter and blend it either. No one is being harmed in the process. i simply do not eat them often because A. i don't prefer them and B. they're too overprocessed for my tastes. But, i do eat them when i'm out with friends and order a veggie burger or whatevre. In fact, now my whole family (all omnis) occassionally eat veggie burgers (more often than regular burgers) which reduces consumption, which reduces killing. So, that's ethics in action, isn't it?
zoebird is offline  
#9 Old 01-03-2004, 01:51 PM
Banned
 
Artichoke47's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,903
I agree with Oatmeal, that your friend doesn't seem to understand what the word "ethical" means, or she just doesn't understand what the vegetarian substitutes are made of.



Companies don't have to call these items "burgers," et cetera, but I think they do it so that the general public recognizes that this item will taste like a hamburger, hopefully attracting the concept of a meatless burger to more people. I can't object to that.
Artichoke47 is offline  
#10 Old 01-03-2004, 02:29 PM
Newbie
 
florida veggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 26
i just found out: the girl is a vaisnava, a follower of lord krsna, which basically is a hare krishna. (she posted it late last night.)



i don't agree with her. i eat fake meat products for the protein. it's the only way i can get my allotted protein requirements without much fat. (for the diet plan i'm on, body for life.)



thank you, everyone, for responding kindly and respectfully. this girl has presented this to an open forum and has not really delivered an answer besides the fact that's it's hypocritical. she's obviously militant about this but for being a militant veggie, this is the most ridulous accusation i've heard from one of them!!
florida veggie is offline  
#11 Old 01-03-2004, 02:40 PM
Veggie Regular
 
grain_girl's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 637
Quote:
Originally Posted by clairebear View Post

Haha, that being said, I don't eat them because they remind me of meat. I never really liked the taste of meat, and I have no desire to be reminded of the things I choose not to eat anymore..





This is how I feel. I do like the patties that have visible pieces of vegetables in them; I can eat those with no problem. I just wish I could find some that were vegan.



Anyway, I see nothing wrong at all with eating meat substitutes! They are a great way to introduce people to veg*nism. Of course it also nice for those veg*ns who did enjoy the taste of meat. For example, my mother just went veg (yeah mommy!!! ) and she has always loved the taste/texture of meat. It isn't as overwhelming for her when she can have all of these very realistic substitutes. Most taste just a little too real for me though.
grain_girl is offline  
#12 Old 01-03-2004, 05:01 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Corvine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 236
Maaaaybe you could consider it slightly unethical if you actually made a full-size replica animal and cut it into pieces - that might be copying the omni way a little too closely. But a few brown chunks of soy in your dinner is hardly a replica of the animal.



I don't think there's anything wrong with fake meat, though I think it's best not to rely on them too much. There are lots of easy ways to get your protein without fake meat, Florida Veggie. I'm sure anyone here can give you the low down if you need some tips.
Corvine is offline  
#13 Old 01-03-2004, 07:47 PM
Veggie Regular
 
peace's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 4,262
LOL, this reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend of mine about whether they should start putting plastic bones in fake meat

slops, gloops, and gruels.
peace is offline  
#14 Old 01-03-2004, 11:25 PM
Veggie Regular
 
clairebear's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 322
Quote:
Originally Posted by florida veggie View Post

i just found out: the girl is a vaisnava, a follower of lord krsna, which basically is a hare krishna. (she posted it late last night.)



Perhaps she is looking at the fake meats from a religious perspective? I can imagine that someone who does not eat beef for religious reasons would feel that fake beef-tasting burgers are the same as eating cow. To her, thats a flavour she is never supposed to taste. If cows are sacred, then why would she want to eat something that tastes like a sacred animal? I think thats the reason that she probably thinks that fake meats are unethical.
clairebear is offline  
#15 Old 01-04-2004, 12:38 AM
Veggie Regular
 
Oatmeal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,778
Aaaahh! Never thought of the religious aspect
Oatmeal is offline  
#16 Old 01-04-2004, 08:44 AM
Veggie Regular
 
zoebird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 8,451
most members of ISKCON (which is the "hare krishnas") talk about diet from a karmic sense, that some foods produce peace of mind/spirit and others do not. It's not that the fake meats are immoral because they're like meat, but because generally they have foods in them that have "negative" qualities. Many do not eat onions, garlic, or other foods that supposedly cause negative temperment/feelings.



it is likely that this young woman is new to the organization, to vegetarianism, and still doesn't understand the full reasoning behind her chosen group's dietary choice which is why she cannot yet provide particular answers.



So really, to some groups of the vedic cultures, eating certain foods is immoral because of the spiritual result that eating it would case (for instance, eating seeds is considered wrong to some particularly ascethic groups because they supposedly increase lust and the desire for reproduction) not because it is a replica of something else.
zoebird is offline  
#17 Old 01-04-2004, 09:33 AM
Veggie Regular
 
veggrl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 800
Ooh ooh, which seeds??
veggrl is offline  
#18 Old 01-04-2004, 12:47 PM
Meo
Veggie Regular
 
Meo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,294
First off, rather something is ethical or un-ethical is all from a person's point of view. We all have different ones, and we all see rather things are ethical to ourselves.



Anyway, I don't see the harm in it. The only reason I wouldn't eat any soy substitutes would be if I didn't watch it come out of the box, or I didn't know who was preparing it. A prime example would be at summer camp. I would not touch them with a 10-foot-pole, despite the fact that my friends insisted they weren't hamburger.
Meo is offline  
#19 Old 01-04-2004, 01:18 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Loki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 4,211
As I see it, eating a meal made of vegetables, grains etc is the best way, since nothing compares to good falafel, curry, or the other food I love.



However, I don't see much wrong with eating fake meat - it tastes good, and it isn't made of dead animals.
Loki is offline  
#20 Old 01-04-2004, 02:02 PM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
I've had this same arguement from an Omni. I think there is nothing wrong with eating Veggie Slices and Mock Burgers if you like them, they are Vegan/Vegetarian and they do not hurt the animal to make them. It is her decision whether or not to eat the mock meat, but she shouldn't say that you are being unethical. That is her opinion.

Shannon
GhostUser is offline  
#21 Old 01-04-2004, 02:06 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Walter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 7,866
Quote:
Originally Posted by veggrl View Post

Ooh ooh, which seeds??





And thanks very much to the mysterious person who renamed this thread to something besides "question?"
Walter is offline  
#22 Old 01-04-2004, 02:08 PM
Newbie
 
charly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6
Seventh-Day Adventists, which the strictest of them are vegan, have no problem with fake meat. in fact they have several factories that produce fake meat. And in Australia actually sell it to McDonalds for use with their veggie salads.
charly is offline  
#23 Old 01-04-2004, 03:37 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Corvine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 236
It's interesting that you should bring up the 7th Day Adventists. My dad's enduring negative opinion of vege food dates to his stay in a hospital run by them and the "horrible" fake meat he had to endure there. Whenever I tell him that I'm having a nut roast for tea he gets the shivers!
Corvine is offline  
#24 Old 01-04-2004, 04:09 PM
Veggie Regular
 
skunkpumpkin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 2,278
I enjoy fake meats and they're an easy way to get protein. sometimes i feel like i'm "cheating" or something, but i realize that i could live without them so...no big deal
skunkpumpkin is offline  
#25 Old 01-04-2004, 04:09 PM
Newbie
 
GhostUser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 0
fake meat unethical? huh.. May be going a little to far, imo (if not religious). It's not hurting animals in any way, they taste good, not greasy, and not necessarily like actual meat. *shrug*



I don't eat them because i miss meat... In fact, i hardly ever eat meat substitutes. It's just nice to have convenience because, as a veg*n, it's hard to get it elsewhere.
GhostUser is offline  
#26 Old 01-04-2004, 04:12 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Sevenseas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 25,067
There might be some reasoning about the symbolic meanings behind the view, but that would be way too abstract to work.

"and I stand

upon a mountain

made of weak and useless men"

Sevenseas is offline  
#27 Old 01-04-2004, 05:10 PM
Newbie
 
charly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvine View Post

It's interesting that you should bring up the 7th Day Adventists. My dad's enduring negative opinion of vege food dates to his stay in a hospital run by them and the "horrible" fake meat he had to endure there. Whenever I tell him that I'm having a nut roast for tea he gets the shivers!



Taste is always a matter of opinion. I have volunteered at a Seventh Day Adventist retirement community and always enjoyed all the foods, well except 1 dish. Perhaps he was just not used to the food. As some of the non-SDA guests really did not like the food when they first arrived, but loved it later on.



What was you opinion on the food?
charly is offline  
#28 Old 01-04-2004, 05:17 PM
Newbie
 
florida veggie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikie View Post





And thanks very much to the mysterious person who renamed this thread to something besides "question?"



sorry. i'm new here and don't know the VB routine.



florida veggie is offline  
#29 Old 01-04-2004, 05:18 PM
Veggie Regular
 
Dirty Martini's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Posts: 8,777
I don't think it's unethical at all, but as someone already said, it depends on whose ethics we're talking about here.



I would wonder whether your friend thinks that fake-leather shoes are unethical as well. Or is it just the fake-meat products? Perhaps they just gross her out?



amy
Dirty Martini is offline  
#30 Old 01-04-2004, 05:23 PM
Veggie Regular
 
SquarePeg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 1,712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Corvine View Post

It's interesting that you should bring up the 7th Day Adventists. My dad's enduring negative opinion of vege food dates to his stay in a hospital run by them and the "horrible" fake meat he had to endure there. Whenever I tell him that I'm having a nut roast for tea he gets the shivers!







I can identify with that.



When I was in college (many many years ago) I worked in a SDA hospital and the cafeteria food was really pretty nasty. YUCK! Hospital food isn't generally that great to begin with - combined with the lack of decent faux "meats" a decade and more ago ... well I can see how it could make you shiver!



Quote:
Taste is always a matter of opinion. I have volunteered at a Seventh Day Adventist retirement community and always enjoyed all the foods, well except 1 dish. Perhaps he was just not used to the food. As some of the non-SDA guests really did not like the food when they first arrived, but loved it later on.



Could depend on how long ago his hospital stay was too. Vegetarian options and meat substitutes have improved greatly in the past 7 - 10 years. Anything before then was pretty hit or miss.

I am the user formerly known as MrsKey
SquarePeg is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the VeggieBoards forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in


Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page


Forum Jump: 

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off