question (meat substitutes unethical)? - Page 3 - VeggieBoards
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#61 Old 01-06-2004, 07:12 AM
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Well, for me, bologna never tasted like ANY kind of meat to me (and really IS that byproduct mass considered meat? ), but still I liked it as a kid and I LOVE Yve's brand now! I couldn't eat anything that resembled the taste and texture of a sirloin steak today and the "skin" on the UnTurkey was a little creepy at Thanksgiving, but a veggie burger to me is not "fake meat" to me, it's a tasty vegetable patty, just as tator tots are hashbrowns in convenient bite size morsels.
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#62 Old 01-06-2004, 07:39 PM
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No more unethical than a pacifist playing violent videogames.
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#63 Old 01-07-2004, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by zoebird View Post

Many do not eat onions, garlic, or other foods that supposedly cause negative temperment/feelings.



OMIGOSH!!! I hope they're not evangelical about that, as I would be much more negative if I DIDN'T have my onions and garlic.



I enjoyed what you shared about Jains and ISKCON raising cows in their own way--that was really cool.







Initially my reaction to the idea of meat analogs being unethical was the same as most here--"It's not meat, it just looks/tastes/smells similarly, so it's not unethical", but after the posts of Kirk, Zoe, and Oatie, I can see how someone would want to avoid meat analogs, too, out of principal. I sometimes feel uncomfortable if I bite into a too-realistic veggie burger or whatnot, and a couple of times I've double and triple checked the source to make sure it wasn't real. I plain old don't like most meat analogs that I've tried since I wasn't big on the tastes associated with meat.



I do like to add TVP flakes to sauces and such to add more texture. It has nothing to do with wanting my sauce to taste/feel meaty--I just don't want it quite so runny! However, if I were to avoid all meat analogs out of principle, I could easily find another way to make sauce the way I like it.





Mosquito, I'm a pacifist who has on occassion played a violent video game. I didn't get "into" it just because I'm not a big video game person anyway. Perhaps I should confess to having really enjoyed "Terminator 3".

Q: How many poets does it take to change a light bulb? A: 1001...one to change the bulb, 1000 to say it's already been done.
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#64 Old 01-08-2004, 07:28 PM
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There are three ISKCON ashrams in my area where i can get any number of dairy products that are acquired with a great deal of care and respect for the animals. (I'm in Pennsylvania USA) You just have to look for them. I know that they exist all over the world.



Where in Pennsylvania are they??
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#65 Old 01-08-2004, 08:10 PM
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Two are in western PA (one outside of state college, and one near bloomsburg, i think). and the other is in southern NJ--i think. I haven't been to them in a while, that third one could be in DE. it was a long drive--like 3 hours--and i went for an event. i just know a few of the devotees.
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#66 Old 09-12-2004, 08:20 PM
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I just wanted to update this thread.



I'm new here, and as fate would have it this thread is indeed about me.



I post at another forumz with VeggieGirl( I think thats her name on these boards, I cant remember from the last 4 pages I read though). Let me say my side of the story.



For a good part of last year I was a practicing Hare Krsna. But things changed and I found out that that wasnt for me. I returned to my pagan toos and all is well.



I think, that at that time in my life, I said a lot of rash things. I was trying to be something that I was clearly not and eh, well you know live and learn. Now on the topic at hand.



I don't eat fake meats. I personally think that it is unethical for me to eat them. When I tuened veggie I did it for health reasons, but as my spiritual path came into question, staying a vegetarian became for spirutual reasons. Not religious, spiritual. I think that for a strict vegetarian, already set in teh ways of a veggie, fake meats are unnecessary. When one rebukes eating meat for ethical reasons and animal welfare, eating something that represents that it a bit illogical. I mean, if you are a vegetarian because of health reasons, or you just dont like the taste of meat, then do it. But I dunno, I just dont think it is right.



But its just a personal opinion, and for you not to eat meat you have to eat fake meat then by all means do it.
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#67 Old 09-12-2004, 08:32 PM
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I am an ethical vegan, and I do eat fake meat.



Personally, I do not consider it unethical to do so -- I never minded the taste of meat and became a vegan for ethical, not gustatory, reasons. Although I do not consume fake meats often and would undoubtedly still be a vegan without them, when I do consume them I feel no guilt. Consumption of meat relies on the torture and slaughter of sentient beings; consumption of fake meat does not. I see no problem.



You are, of course, completely entitled to not eat fake meats if you are not comfortable doing so -- I just wanted to throw in my two cents' worth.
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#68 Old 09-12-2004, 09:34 PM
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There is an omni living in my house right now (I believe I said "Never Again" the last time I felt sorry for someone and let them move in, but here I go again). He has been totally amazed at the variety and taste of the mock meats out there. The other day, I made burritos with vegetarian refried beans, Yves taco "meat," and Better Than Sour Cream. And today, I made Boca burgers for lunch. He enjoyed both dishes. He was also pleasantly surprised with the "cheesy" taste I was able to achieve with nutritional yeast and soy milk in the pasta primavera I made last week. On Wednesday, I'm making pasta with many-veggie marinara with faux "meat" balls, and I expect that will be a hit as well.



I don't know if this guy will ever go veggie, but I do know that he is now aware that it is entirely possible to continue to eat well without adding dead animals.
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#69 Old 09-13-2004, 01:28 AM
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Well, let's put it this way, if meat tasted totally different then fake meat tastes (wait does that make sense?)....ok so like, say chicken tasted totally different then what fake chicken now tastes like. Would you eat it? I mean if it wasn't actually fake chicken, and just soy patties formulated to taste the way they do? I eat fake meat (only some, I don't really like the taste of meat), because it tastes good and is vegetarian. I don't care that it's copying the taste of meat, all I know is that I like what it tastes like, therefore I eat it. I guess that's my point with this post: if you like the taste of something and it's non-meat, why not eat it? All it is, is soy(or fungus) and other ingrediants all put together into a patty.
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#70 Old 09-13-2004, 02:10 AM
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IMO, its not unethical. I'm proud to eat my Gardenburger riblets. No animal was killed in the process, and I will continue to eat my fake "meats" when I feel the need to do so.
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#71 Old 09-13-2004, 03:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skylark View Post

OMIGOSH!!! I hope they're not evangelical about that, as I would be much more negative if I DIDN'T have my onions and garlic.

Sounds like Ayurveda.



I would not worry about the analogs, unless they actually lead you to one day say, "You know this doesn't taste like steak.... let's go get one." If they work for you, you're not killing any animals.



Some substitutes only remotely remind me in any way of meat -- like TVP, but I still like them.
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#72 Old 09-13-2004, 05:45 AM
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I don't understand how it could be unethical. It's not made from an animal. Noone died to make that product.



I love fake "meat" products. It allows me to have all those meals I had as an omnivore. Should I have to give up hotdogs, hamburgers & pepperoni pizza for my ethics? Nope, I can enjoy a healthy murder-free versian instead! I see nothing unethical about it!
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#73 Old 09-13-2004, 08:12 AM
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Well, hrm. The problem with dredging discusions from the idle bin is that nobody ever reviews what has been said before.



Ethics is not just about avoiding doing bad things, but also cultivating the right thing. From the point of view of some religions, vegetarianism is not only about non-violence, but also about renunciation of the ways we benefit from violence. As a result, eating things that taste like meat can be a problematic action if it fails to cultivate renunciation.
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#74 Old 09-13-2004, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by kirkjobsluder View Post

Well, hrm. The problem with dredging discusions from the idle bin is that nobody ever reviews what has been said before.



Ethics is not just about avoiding doing bad things, but also cultivating the right thing. From the point of view of some religions, vegetarianism is not only about non-violence, but also about renunciation of the ways we benefit from violence. As a result, eating things that taste like meat can be a problematic action if it fails to cultivate renunciation.



see, you udnerstand what I am saying.



the reasonsing behind it is because if you dont want to eat a chiken, why eat something that is made to represent chicken. To me, that whole fake meat thing is just telling people that we cant totally get away from a completely meat free diet. Why? Because we still have to subsitute our bodies with things that resemble meat. Most of us get our protien from a slab of gluten that resembles a chiken nugget, hamburger, riblet. And to answer the question if it didnt take anything like meat would I still eat it? No. Because they dont taste like meat.





I mean, Im not saying that you're a horrid vegetarian if you eat it, cause who I am to judge. But for me, as a personal ethic, I cant do it. Now when this topic was made, I was judgemental and at an angry point in my life, so I made rash accusations. But I can look back and udnerstand why I was wrong.
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#75 Old 09-13-2004, 09:50 AM
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Originally Posted by florida veggie View Post


i don't agree with her. i eat fake meat products for the protein. it's the only way i can get my allotted protein requirements without much fat. (for the diet plan i'm on, body for life.)



Legumes ( beans, except for soy ) and whole grains are very low in fat as well as being good sources of protein.



You might want to check this link out

http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/



It has very good nutrition information. If you are a vegetarian just add milk and eggs.



HTH



Steve

My Blog: beforewisdom.com
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#76 Old 09-13-2004, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by kirkjobsluder View Post

Well, hrm. The problem with dredging discusions from the idle bin is that nobody ever reviews what has been said before.



Ethics is not just about avoiding doing bad things, but also cultivating the right thing. From the point of view of some religions, vegetarianism is not only about non-violence, but also about renunciation of the ways we benefit from violence. As a result, eating things that taste like meat can be a problematic action if it fails to cultivate renunciation.



Wouldn't assisting a hesitant omni into the world of veg*nism be "cultivating the right thing", thereby making a few mock meats acceptable? And if so, where's the cut-off point; when should one begin to eschew their use. Also, how close is veg food allowed to mimic meat before it becomes unethical to consume it? Is anything in pattie form wrong? Or granular form like TVP? Are composed dishes that traditionally contain meat, but are made meat-free acceptable? It starts to get a bit slippery.
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#77 Old 09-13-2004, 10:42 AM
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Personally, I think they're gross because they taste like meat, but if you enjoy the taste I see no problem with eating them at all, especially if they help people transition from omnivore to vegetarian, then they're great.
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#78 Old 09-13-2004, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by shagginabit View Post

IMO, its not unethical. I'm proud to eat my Gardenburger riblets. No animal was killed in the process, and I will continue to eat my fake "meats" when I feel the need to do so.



Definitely. Gardenburger riblets are the BEST!
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#79 Old 09-13-2004, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Quizeen View Post

Wouldn't assisting a hesitant omni into the world of veg*nism be "cultivating the right thing", thereby making a few mock meats acceptable?



Ugh, bad phrasing on my part. In general, the religious points of view I'm talking about tend to reject the sorts of ends-means analysis that you invoke here. My point is that avoiding meat is not just an issue of non-violence or animal rights within some religions, but it coupled with renunciation for the purpose of supporting a specific spiritual practice. So, fake meats can be viewed as problematic because while they support the practice of non-violence, they also support attachment to the flavor and feel of meat. Even if the person never acts on that attachment, it is still problematic. While your argument supports meat substitutes in terms of "right action" it does not really support meat substitutes in terms of "right thought" which is just as important.



Also, I did not say anything about "acceptable." What I said was that eating fake meats can be problematic within some ethical frameworks. That is a bit different. Something either is or is not acceptable. However, "problematic" suggests that there are some concerns that need to be thought out when we do something.



Quote:
And if so, where's the cut-off point; when should one begin to eschew their use. Also, how close is veg food allowed to mimic meat before it becomes unethical to consume it?



From the argument above, fake meat becomes problematic when it maintains a person's spiritual attachment to the real thing. (Please note, I'm not a religious person and I don't place a high value on this argument. I just get irritated when people dismiss the possibility that others might have valid ethical concerns about fake meat.)



Quote:
Is anything in pattie form wrong? Or granular form like TVP? Are composed dishes that traditionally contain meat, but are made meat-free acceptable? It starts to get a bit slippery.



Why is slipperyness a bad thing? It seems to me that slipperyness is a good thing. Real-world ethics are slippery, and involve non-trivial compromises.
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#80 Old 09-13-2004, 01:46 PM
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I was just tossing out some ideas there, not trying to argue or pick apart any heavy argument. Also, I realize that you didn't use the word "acceptable", that was me, using the word to figure out my own understanding of what you had posted and adding a bit of wonderment at the original, spiritual veg woman's post. I didn't realize this was meant to be a highly precise, extremely formal conversation.



I can see where some folks might have ethical issues with fake meats and I can see where some wouldn't care a bit. I was just wondering how fake is fake really. If one is spiritually motived into veganism I wonder where their cut-off point of "fakeness" is.
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#81 Old 09-13-2004, 05:00 PM
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Whew didn't realize there was such an argument about the fake meats.



What do I care what form the veggies/grains are in? long as they aren't flesh, I'll eat it!
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