question (meat substitutes unethical)? - Page 2 - VeggieBoards
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#31 Old 01-04-2004, 05:38 PM
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I've had this from Omni's too. "Eating fake meat is exactly like eating the real thing. If you really believed animals shouldn't be eaten you wouldn't eat it etc." I just don't see this point of view - I don't eat flesh, there is no flesh in them, I should be ok, right? If it's the appearances that count, (as these people I've met seem to think) does that mean I can have fake carrots that have been carefully made from ground beef to look and taste like carrots?

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#32 Old 01-04-2004, 06:00 PM
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Unethical, unshmethical. The bottom line is that fake meats are NOT meat. Case closed.
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#33 Old 01-04-2004, 06:07 PM
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She could be thinking along the lines of the people who hate violent video games. It's very a very popular belief that violent video games are bad, even though the people you are killing in them are fake (pixels).

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#34 Old 01-04-2004, 07:24 PM
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which is of course ridiculous, nothing virtual is unethical as long as it never translates to real life (as in the actions you take in a virtual world cannot be unethical)



except in a world that you share with other people depending on the game, dont steal sometimes items etc :0
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#35 Old 01-04-2004, 10:25 PM
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Personally I don't like the ones that really taste like meat. I like the veggie or lentil ones a lot better. But I don't see how anyone can say they're unethical.
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#36 Old 01-04-2004, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiz View Post

I've had this from Omni's too. "Eating fake meat is exactly like eating the real thing. If you really believed animals shouldn't be eaten you wouldn't eat it etc."



Many omnis are just stupid. That's the only explanation for that comment.
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#37 Old 01-04-2004, 10:31 PM
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Oh my god! The suffering I've been causing those faux-animals! My conscience is wrecked. I'll never look at a Boca burger again without seeing all the innumerable sad faces of those individual soybeans that died just to make me a burger.



But seriously, this sounds like a lame argument a guilty meat-eater would put forth.

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#38 Old 01-04-2004, 10:42 PM
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Maybe the friend meant all the field mice killed in the harvesting of the grains and vegetables etc. that go into producing the fake meat?
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#39 Old 01-04-2004, 11:15 PM
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If you're looking at it with a religious bent, I can see how she might come to that conclusion for herself. Replicating the experience of eating dead cow might seem unethical, because maybe in order to get something that tastes like dead cow, you have to know what dead cow tastes like... and to her that would be wrong. However, eating the actual fake meat is not unethical in my eyes. I think she should be more concerned with the actual cows that are being killed, rather than people who are eating processed plant material that looks like them. I would imagine that the fake meat industry has saved the lives of many animals, making it that much easier to be veg*n.
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#40 Old 01-05-2004, 02:35 AM
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I too, shake my head in disbelief at people who think eating fake meat is unethical. I love my chicken burger substitutes... but I admit to trying a bacon substitute the other day and feeling nauseated by the realistic taste. Not a matter of ethics, but taste.



I just cannot understand their reasoning, I can't...
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#41 Old 01-05-2004, 09:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MrsKey View Post






Could depend on how long ago his hospital stay was too. Vegetarian options and meat substitutes have improved greatly in the past 7 - 10 years. Anything before then was pretty hit or miss.



Yeah it was like 15 years ago so it could well have been the lack of food technology. I've never tried any SDA food old or new so I can't comment. Buy you know what it's like when an omni gets an idea in their head, expecially one that justifies their own diet: "I tried veggie food once and it was crap therefore I did my best ..." Blah.
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#42 Old 01-05-2004, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by florida veggie View Post


btw, she's lacto-veggie. because of her religion, she drinks milk, but from farms that do not slaughter the cows after getting milk from them. (i cannot think right now in which religion holds the cow in high regard ... buddhism?)



Do these kind of farms exist in the usa? or does she live in india?
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#43 Old 01-05-2004, 09:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shewolf View Post

I too, shake my head in disbelief at people who think eating fake meat is unethical. I love my chicken burger substitutes... but I admit to trying a bacon substitute the other day and feeling nauseated by the realistic taste. Not a matter of ethics, but taste.



I just cannot understand their reasoning, I can't...





Anything that will justify what they do is a valid reason in the eyes of those people. Part of it is Cognitive dissonance.
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#44 Old 01-05-2004, 09:25 AM
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cannot think right now in which religion holds the cow in high regard ... buddhism



Hinduism
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#45 Old 01-05-2004, 09:49 AM
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Yeah, buddhism generally holds all animals in high regard.
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#46 Old 01-05-2004, 10:01 AM
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I think it's the jaines (jaynes) (spelling?) that keep cows for milking with out killing them in the end.



I seriously doubt you can get "that kind of milk" outside asia.
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#47 Old 01-05-2004, 11:22 AM
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#48 Old 01-05-2004, 11:34 AM
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I agree with Veganmaster ..
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But seriously, this sounds like a lame argument a guilty meat-eater would put forth.

Sounds like she's just sticking up for her religion, even though she doesn't fully understand the concept of fake meats. Personally I don't see anything wrong with them whatsoever.. they help millions of people transition into veganism/vegetarianism because of the fact that they are exactly like meat without the bad karma of eating dead animals. If are interested in learning more from this person .. or just arguing with her (hehe) ask her what her religion's view on karma is.....
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#49 Old 01-05-2004, 12:42 PM
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I think it is weird that veg*ns eat fake meats. It seems to defeat the purpose of being veggie. But that does not stop me from eating a pack of Yves deli meats or fake burgers. Who cares? It's not killing any animal, so cheers to that!
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#50 Old 01-05-2004, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schu View Post

which is of course ridiculous, nothing virtual is unethical as long as it never translates to real life (as in the actions you take in a virtual world cannot be unethical)



except in a world that you share with other people depending on the game, dont steal sometimes items etc :0



Well, hrm. There is another side to ethics which has to do with right thought in addition to right action. From this point of view, virtual violence and fake meat are wrong not because they harm others, but because they harm the self.
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#51 Old 01-05-2004, 01:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtDiva96 View Post

I agree with Veganmaster ..

Sounds like she's just sticking up for her religion, even though she doesn't fully understand the concept of fake meats. Personally I don't see anything wrong with them whatsoever.. they help millions of people transition into veganism/vegetarianism because of the fact that they are exactly like meat without the bad karma of eating dead animals. If are interested in learning more from this person .. or just arguing with her (hehe) ask her what her religion's view on karma is.....



But... (and I don't know why I'm bothering trying to explain it because obviously not only is there a consensus here that these concerns are "ridiculous" but I have doubts anybody here is interested in why fake meats might be objectionable.)



The whole point of these spiritual practices is not just to avoid doing the wrong thing, but to promote a way of thinking, being and doing that encourages doing the right thing. Avoiding bad karma is only half of the story, the other half of the story involves renunciation. In that respect, fake meats are problematic because it's not a true renunciation. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I don't think it's silly or a belief system that should be ridiculed.
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#52 Old 01-05-2004, 02:03 PM
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I can see Kirk's point, and I also appreciated Kiz's comparison with the violence of some video games. I have a bit of a problem with virtual violence myself. I can see the cathartic value in some cases, but when we begin to look at things like virtual rape, which I have heard happens in some games, I have to say I find that very unethical -- regardless of whether it's "real" or not. And so, I can also understand being uncomfortable with fake meats, because of what they represent.



I would want to know this:



Does she think eating fake meat is unethical/hypocritcal for her, or for everyone? If she feels that everyone should follow her beliefs, even if they do not follow her religion, then I have a problem. But without seeing what she had to say for herself, I don't feel I can form a valid opinion. I'm curious to know what other forum this conversation is taking place on, to see her arguments for myself rather than get them filtered and speculated on -- though I would understand if you felt uncomfortable sharing that information.
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#53 Old 01-05-2004, 04:14 PM
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It may also depend on whether you view these products as replacements for meat, or simply delicious foods in their own right. For example, some people view soy milk as a replacement for cow milk, while others (including lactos and omnis) may simply enjoy it for what it is: a delicious drink that can be enjoyed whether or not you also drink cow milk.



(Obviously it's harder to make this argument for things like fake bacon, but even there we should be able to enjoy it as something that just tastes good and is fun to eat, regardless of the original association with meat.)
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#54 Old 01-05-2004, 04:59 PM
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I agree. I don't think of a veg burger as being a fake hamburger anymore than I think of a salmon patty as being a fake crabcake. To me, veg sausage or burgers or cutlets aren't replacements for meat. Just because it's a burger doesn't mean it has to be meat, and anything other than meat is a "substitute." (Not sure if I'm making sense here, but trying to.)



Seems to me it's mostly a matter of contents, not the form it takes. Soy is soy is soy, TVP is TVP is TVP, and meat is meat is meat.



I mean, bacon + sausage + ham = pig, right?

Then shouldn't veg burger + veg sausage + veg cutlet = veg?



IMHO, the unethical part of the first equation is the pig.

And the "nice" part about the second equation is the veg.



Does that make sense?
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#55 Old 01-05-2004, 05:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kirkjobsluder View Post

But... (and I don't know why I'm bothering trying to explain it because obviously not only is there a consensus here that these concerns are "ridiculous" but I have doubts anybody here is interested in why fake meats might be objectionable.)



The whole point of these spiritual practices is not just to avoid doing the wrong thing, but to promote a way of thinking, being and doing that encourages doing the right thing. Avoiding bad karma is only half of the story, the other half of the story involves renunciation. In that respect, fake meats are problematic because it's not a true renunciation. I don't necessarily agree with it, but I don't think it's silly or a belief system that should be ridiculed.



I agree, and I'm glad you posted this.
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#56 Old 01-05-2004, 05:42 PM
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I don't think it's unethical at all. It's just an easy way to eat your soy, in a common shape and size, and some form you're used to from your meat eating days. Just because it's called a "burger" doesn't mean it's meat.
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#57 Old 01-05-2004, 06:48 PM
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I totally agree with Oatmeal's first post. I had this same discussion with a friend of mine, and he still doesn't understand my side of it. When I eat meat analogs, I'm not thinking, "wow, this feels like I'm really biting into a dead animal." To me it's just soy that has the same shape/texture/taste. I really like Soy Nuggets, and that's exactly what they are to me, soy nuggets. I don't think of them as fake chicken. So when you get right down to it, it's just the name (chicken-style, beef-style, etc.).



I don't eat Boca Burgers anymore (they're owned by Kraft, correct?), but I really like Amy's. Especially the "california burgers" which aren't supposed to be fake-anything. They're just grains and things, yum. It really is a matter of convenience, there are so many more fake meat convenient foods than vegan convenient foods. It's because they don't market them towards us, they go for a broader audience, which is why they make them like meat. There's a vegan restaurant in Chicago that has good BBQ soy. That's fine, right? Because it's not supposed to look like any certain meat? Well it's just like Gardenburger Riblets, except those *are* shaped like meat. To me it's all just soy.



Of course there are Tofurkys that are shaped like real turkeys and have wishbones, but obviously those are for the health people (or whatever other reason) who can't eat real turkey, but want to feel "normal."

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#58 Old 01-05-2004, 07:18 PM
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international society of krishna consciousness (officially a group of hindus) have ashrams in the US where cows are raised and adored. Calves feed first, then the mothers are milked. Calves wean on their own. Males often become steer and are used in the fields (plowing, etc). Some females are impregnated (or reimpregnanted) by unrelated uncastrated males in order to increase the herd, as well as recieve dairy prodcuts. All cows die of natural causes, and usually under the care of those who live in the ashram. At their deaths, generally the monastics are chanting the names of God.



There are three ISKCON ashrams in my area where i can get any number of dairy products that are acquired with a great deal of care and respect for the animals. (I'm in Pennsylvania USA) You just have to look for them. I know that they exist all over the world.



Jains also "keep cows" but in inda cows are generally "free range" and roam everywhere and pretty much anyone can milk them after the calf has had it's fill. So, in a given mid-sized village, there may be a number of cows running around--but no one owns them--or they are predominently cared for by the religious leaders of the community.



it's a unique culture where cows are revered as "our mothers."
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#59 Old 01-05-2004, 11:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keeganisafish View Post

I think it is weird that veg*ns eat fake meats. It seems to defeat the purpose of being veggie.



Well, the purpose of veg*nism (at least to me) is to exclude animal products, so fake meats clearly don't defeat the purpose of veg*nism (at least to me).



And hey, everybody eats weird stuff, why not veg*ns?? Again veg*nism (at least to me) is not about eating non-weird stuff.
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#60 Old 01-06-2004, 01:45 AM
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I wonder where she stands on seitan and "fried gluten". I tend to see these as what they are, seitan and fried gluten, but I've also seen them marketed as meat replacements (including being called "vegetarian chicken" and the like). Is it just bacon-like products and obvious fakes, or is she including textured vegetable protein as a no-no? I'd really like to know what she thinks of seitan, it really is a food in it's own right. No, I'm not mocking her beliefs here, I really am curious.

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